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Umb3r

EULA on full perm items

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Can anyone advise on EULAs on full perm items?

Increasingly I am seeing creators demanding price fixing on anything created using there products. 

These are sometimes quite complex, stating individual prices for using one texture, one item, or if the item resembles the original product.  Its putting me off purchasing but now I have read that these hold no weight and are not legally binding, in fact they are illegal?

I was referred to this article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance

I'm confused, these items are listed full permissions but it seems they have rather limited permissions. 

Any advice would be appreciated.

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Umb3r wrote:

Can anyone advise on EULAs on full perm items?

Increasingly I am seeing creators demanding price fixing on anything created using there products. 

These are sometimes quite complex, stating individual prices for using one texture, one item, or if the item resembles the original product.  Its putting me off purchasing but now I have read that these hold no weight and are not legally binding, in fact they are illegal?

I was referred to this article

I'm confused, these items are listed full permissions but it seems they have rather limited permissions. 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Ignore anything you read about "resale" when you're dealing with full-perm objects. Resale involves items that leave your posession once they're sold, which isn't the case for full-permission items. What you're doing is selling copies of the item, which means you're involved with copyright.

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Price fixing is illegal in the United States.  So if you live in the US, there is no way for the creator to enforce it.  If you live elsewhere, though technically you bought in in the US since the servers are here, you need to refer to your countries laws to see what effect it has.

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From that link

'.....Some argue that the manufacturer may do this because it wishes to keep resellers profitable, thus keeping the manufacturer profitable'

I thought about this and to me it sounds like a valid argument. Here's how I see it relating to SL.

If buyers of full perm items were to resell at very low or give away prices couldn't that lead to flooding SL with the items, and thus making the items so common they become worthless?

I think full perm sellers take a huge risk, and therefore should be able to state rules to protect their products, and thus their profits. They don't have the protection that comes with copy or transfer only items.

To the OP, why don't you just not buy these items if the rules annoy you. If you can take the time to create it yourself (usually a lot of time) then you will be free of all the rules :)

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

.......there is no way for the creator to enforce it.

If people bought full perm items with intentions of ignoring the pricing rules because 'the creator cannot enforce it' then this is maliciously acting to destroy the business. The rules are there to protect the business.

Oh, this would be so unfair. As an act of decency you would respect the rules.

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Nina Jashan wrote:


If people bought full perm items with intentions of ignoring the pricing rules because 'the creator cannot enforce it' then this is maliciously acting to destroy the business. The rules are there to protect the business.

Oh, this would be so unfair. As an act of decency you would respect the rules.

If the "pricing rules" aren't legal to begin with, the malicious behavior would begin with them(ie, the original creator) not the reseller. 

I've bought, and buy, full perm things, quite frequently actually. Personally, I ignore any and all who have price limitations in their EULA, but I also modify them enough, add them to things I've already built, etc...that would increase their price anyway(rather than decrease it). So, really, it matters not to my own situation, aside fromt he fact that I find price fixing to have the exact opposite effect of what some believe it should have(ie, preserving profitability for all). Whether one sets a price limitation for his or her full perm items, or not, flooding occurs. Price fixing does not stop, or encourage it, anymore than not doing so does.(despite the belliefs of some folks)

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Tari Landar wrote:


If the "pricing rules" aren't legal to begin with

 


There seems to be different views on this. When it comes to digital copies the rules might be different. I really don't know, but I suspect you don't know either.

What I don't understand is why you would buy and profit from someone else's hard work, and stick your finger up to their rules.

As for the rest of your post, I can't follow your logic.

 

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Nina Jashan wrote:


Tari Landar wrote:


If the "pricing rules" aren't legal to begin with

 

There seems to be different views on this. When it comes to digital copies the rules might be different. I really don't know, but I suspect you don't know either.

What I don't understand is why you would buy and profit from someone else's hard work, and stick your finger up to their rules.

As for the rest of your post, I can't follow your logic.

 

You don't make a lick of sense.

I don't stick my finger, or anything up to anyone's rules. Did you not read where I said I DO NOT BUY things with price limitations? I avoid them, because I have no interest in them. Even if you ignored that part, surely you did not ignore the part where I said I modify, change, add to things I have already built, etc..thereby INCREASING the price, not decreasing it.

Personally, I avoid the items with price limitations primarily because the reason many set those limitations is to avoid the flooding issue, and maintain their profit(which does make sense, but only in theory, in practice, it stands false). Unfortunately for them, and most people, what they do not realize is the price fixing, is NOT going to have an effect on flooding in the manner they expect. If person A makes a mesh dress template and it is done well, whether or not person A sets a price limitation...the dress template is going to be bought(likely by lots of people) thereby also flooding the market with that item, and then sold at varying price ranges. It is the nature of full perm things. It is why you see so very many similar, if not nearly identical items on the MP and inworld, with prices all over the map. That issue exists everywhere, not just in sl. When I used to make cloth diapers, for example, one person had made a great kit that a lot of other diaper creators(especially new ones) were using, which means they ALL looked similar. She originally set a price limitation, hoping it would stop those other merchants from flooding the "diaper market" with low-cost diapers, keeping both her and those using her kit, making a profit, or so she thought.  She then removed the price limitation, and guess what? The number of people using that kit after the change did not have a different effect than having the limitation in place. The flooding that existed, with varying price ranges, existed in both scenarios, as it always does. Feel free to research that topic yourself, I need not delve into it here, but  the whole "set price limits to avoid flooding, and maintain profitability for all involved" is a massive myth, as it only exists in theory. 

I darn well know how hard most folks work, and I would *never* diminish their own work. So I would never charge less than I paid for a full perm item. Then again, I've made plenty of my own full perm stuff over the years(and not just for use in sl), I've never set pricing restrictions, either. Again, I don't stick my finger up at priving restrictions, I simply avoid them, because they do not interest me, and make me wonder about the person setting the restriction(and how much they understand about their own market). It's merely a personal preference...period. 

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Tara, I'm sorry, you meant avoid stores that set price limits. I just saw the words 'ignore' and 'EULA' in the same sentence, and it hit a nerve.

This post is not meant only for you, Tara. But for anyone who might not understand, please consider this scenario.

Imagine you spend several weeks creating an item, and you finish it with pride. Your item is high quality and, in your opinion, worth at least L$350. You set a price of L$350, and make it full perm so that others can use it in their creations.

A few weeks later your high quality item shows up selling for L$10 (with minimal change) near the top of its search category. A few weeks more, several other sellers are offering your item at L$10 to L$20 - not hard to find as they are all high in search. So, the item that you spent so much time creating, and that you were so proud of, and that you value at L$350, is now becoming established in the marketplace at the price of L$10, and it is being snapped up. This is not even mentioning those who give it away free to attract customers to their store. This happens!!

After a period of time the sale of your full perm item starts to decrease. And this makes sense because why would merchants want to use it in their creations when their customers can buy it themselves for L$10? Items selling for L$10 with a high sales rate tend to become common very quickly, hence trashy.

For the record, I'm not a merchant. My rl partner sells full perm items, so I don't need to do research. We know first hand. We never had price limits until this started happening over and over again. The price limits fixed the problem almost completely. We are not too concerned about inworld stores as sales tend to be slower there, but we still get reports from customers and check it out.

In our situation, price limits stopped a situation we found undesirable.

We had a problem, we needed a solution, and this worked for us.

We don't care about theory or practice or research or anyone else's experiences - only interested in ours.

However, this post might provide some insight into why full perm merchants price fix.

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Nina Jashan wrote:

Imagine you spend several weeks creating an item, and you finish it with pride. Your item is high quality and, in your opinion, worth at least L$350. You set a price of L$350, and make it full perm so that others can use it in their creations.

A few weeks later your high quality item shows up selling for L$10 (with minimal change) near the top of its search category. A few weeks more, several other sellers are offering your item at L$10 to L$20 - not hard to find as they are all high in search. So, the item that you spent so much time creating, and that you were so proud of, and that you value at L$350, is now becoming established in the marketplace at the price of L$10, and it is being snapped up. This is not even mentioning those who give it away free to attract customers to their store. This happens!!

After a period of time the sale of your full perm item starts to decrease. And this makes sense because why would merchants want to use it in their creations when their customers can buy it themselves for L$10?

 

You just ran smack into the "make versus buy" equation. It may make economic sense for me to buy your full perm L350 item for me to customize as part of something I'm making because I lack the time or talent to make something you are good at ... happens ALL the time in manufacturing. Buying an off-the-shelf bit of software or hardware

However, it makes no sense for me to sell my product at L$350 just to make you happy, because what I'm selling is NOT competing with your sales.  My selling them for L350 puts NO more lindens in your pocket than my selling them at L35, or my giving them away.

 


For the record, I'm not a merchant. My rl partner sells full perm items, so I don't need to do research. We know first hand. We never had price limits until this started happening over and over again. The price limits fixed the problem almost completely. We are not too concerned about inworld stores as sales tend to be slower there, but we still get reports from customers and check it out.

Did it increase your sales?  Or did it just stop modified versions of your stuff from being sold at low prices and making you unhappy?

If I'm looking for parts to "kit bash", I'll skip any vendor with price demands on my use of their product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitbashing 

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I have been in that situation, actually, hence why I know what does and does not work both in theory and in practice. I have been in that situation in rl, and I have been in that situation in sl. Neither experience pressed me to add pricing limitations, primarily because of my own research, but also because I don't believe in setting them(personal preference)

You believe that what you did worked for you, and really, that's all that should matter to you, I suppose. Others, however, could benefit from the information, so shooting it down like that just because you don't like it, or don't care, is rather pointless for discussion sake. Since it's a merchant forum, we should always remember that, what works in our own situation, won't work in others, and when people offer information and advice, it may not always apply to you. It can, however, apply for others(and this particular situation, applies to far more than it does not). It never hurts to share information, or simply ignore what you think doesn't apply to you ;)  Others around here, are still learning, and knowing what does and does not work, on a larger scale, is likely to be extremely valuable to them.

As someone else pointed out, there could be more than one reason why you found a solution, and at least one of them, isn't likely what you think it is(that doesn't change the fact that your solution worked for you, it just adds more information to the pot). That's sort of why a lot of business can be trial and error, learning from others, and USING that information.  While it may not matter to you right now, it might at some point in the future. 

I'm glad your solution worked for you, whatever that solution, and outcome, may be.

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 'Flooding the market' is a good thing. You want to flood the market because that means peeps are actually buying your stuff, and when peeps are buying your stuff more, that leads to even more peeps exponentially buying your stuff. The 'price pumping' in SL is what is really causing SL to be much less profitable for all and not the opposite. Especially when it comes to a pixel economy with an unlimited inventory, you want cheap cheap cheap and lots lots lots of peeps to help everyone's economy do better together.

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