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Canoro Philipp

Phoenix Negative Propaganda Against Viewer 2

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haters of Viewer 2 will always hate Viewer 2 no matter what, to unreasonable levels if necessary, they love to spread misinformation, and if they are caught, they say they were "misinformed", one common technique is to claim that they are forced to do something when obviously its a choice, to propagate fear against Linden Lab, this is a very popular culture spread specially between Phoenix users, i wonder if this culture against Linden Lab is encouraged by the Phoenix developers.

it seems like there is a band of Phoenix users dedicated to diminish every new feature and encourage hate against Viewer 2 so that their viewer would be more popular. you can spot them in that in most of their "criticism" (negative propaganda) against Viewer 2, they will add a Phoenix ad in their comments, they don't have to be specific about any feature of Viewer 2 to promote hate against it, they can just post that they hate it and its bad following by a Phoenix ad at the end. is this the marketing technique that Phoenix has to promote itself? a constant griefing against Linden Lab and Viewer 2 users?

this negative propaganda technique is specifically of Phoenix, how come we never see Dolphin's or Kirsten's users come and "criticize" Viewer 2 and then add an ad of their viewer? can something be done against their spam and griefing?

way to go with the negative propaganda, its the only way Phoenix would become more used.

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haters of Phoenix will always hate Phoenix no matter what, to unreasonable levels if necessary, they love to spread misinformation, and if they are caught, they say they were "misinformed", one common technique is to claim that they are forced to do something when obviously its a choice, to propagate fear against Phoenix, this is a very popular culture spread specially between Viewer 2 users, i wonder if this culture against Phoenix is encouraged by the Viewer 2 developers.

it seems like there is a band of Viewer 2 users dedicated to diminish every new feature and encourage hate against Phoenix so that their viewer would be more popular. you can spot them in that in most of their "criticism" (negative propaganda) against Phoenix, they will add a Viewer 2 ad in their comments, they don't have to be specific about any feature of Phoenix to promote hate against it, they can just post that they hate it and its bad following by a Viewer 2 ad at the end. is this the marketing technique that Viewer 2 has to promote itself? a constant griefing against Phoenix and Phoenix users?

this negative propaganda technique is specifically of Viewer 2, how come we never see Dolphin's or Kirsten's users come and "criticize" Phoenix and then add an ad of their viewer? can something be done against their spam and griefing?

way to go with the negative propaganda, its the only way Viewer 2 would become more used.

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Remember Phoenix has always been the second most used viewer behind LL's, back when it was called "Emerald" it was really the first 3rd party viewer that anyone had even heard of.

Before it came along only a select handful of people were using 3rd party clients. Pretty much only Nicholaz' and Cool Viewer. Seeing as nothing else existed.

So Phoenix does not have to do anything to gain users, it has always had them.

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ok then -

 I did the Moreland Grove viewer and I hate V2.x.  But it wouldn't be fair just to say I hate it just because.

OTOH most (not all) of the critisms of the V2.x UI have been posted & talked about ad nausem here .. in groups and other forums.   What's not to get? 

What I would have done is not change the user interface or have kept the changes minimal & tried to evolve it in smaller steps.  MS made this same mistake with Vista & pissed of a lot of users.  SL is a community and like a living organism itself... and like a living thing it needs to adapt along with changes made by LL.  AND its a two way street.  If LL makes changes that show disrespect for the community .. the community will respond in kind.  I don't think that's too much of a surprise.

On the other hand,  as a software engineer,  I do like the modular plugins - but I've read the docs for them & they still fall way short of my needs. 

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Ho-hum. This is sort of like the old PC vs. Mac arguments.  There are partisans on both sides and there's always a conspiracy theorist around to make it interesting.  Once you get past the shouting, the fact is that we have a free market with good alternatives competing for consumer attention.  The competition keeps all the development teams on their toes and assures us that we can choose whichever product suits us best personally.  We all win.

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Is the LL Cheerleading Squad & Glee Club low on posts or something?

FYI: I use Snowglobe 1.42, technically a LL viewer with open source contributed code, the same as v2 so I'm hardly a Phoenix "propagandist". I have my own reasons for disliking and refusing to use v2 which I've enumerated elsewhere.

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Is this prompted by anything in particular? As far as I've seen, the viewer war was over well before this forum started, and most people acknowledge that choice of viewer is determined only by (1) taste and (2) what runs best on your computer.

Also, quite a few people use more than one viewer.

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Oh nuts.   I saw this and thought LL had come to their senses and brought back a GD Forum.   It's so boring since it's been gone.   Now I see it's just a random Rah-Rah V2/slam Phoenix post.   Must have been bored and I can't blame you for that.

Hey LL, bring back the GD Forum.  It may have been contentious and over the top a lot of the time, but it was never boring.   Unlike things in here since the change.

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@Dante
how many threads has been started containing negative propaganda against the Phoenix viewer? (this is not an anti-Phoenix viewer thread, this is against the technique to promote Phoenix.)
what misinformation has been said against Emerald/Phoenix? that Emerald launched a DDOS attack against someone who showed that they were secretly storing users data?

@Kaiser
thank you for your fair review, im sure Moreland Grove viewer is a great viewer to use.

@Rolig
yes, it is like the Mac vs. PC argument, fortunatly those differences are mostly forgotten. this is exactly the type of mentality that is unhealthy, for one to win the other has to lose. different viewers can co-exist together and every user has a choice to use the one they prefer the most. the culture of bashing Viewer 2 by some Phoenix users as propaganda for their viewer is unhealthy.

@Eric
i am not criticizing Phoenix, its a great viewer with great features, what i am criticizing is the technique of promotion that some Phoenix users have, to promote hate against Viewer 2 and offer Phoenix as a solution.

@Deej
I think you do have your reasons, there is always something positive and something negative on everthing, when you start seeing only the negative, then you are unfair and not seeing clearly.

@Ossian
i am not allowed to say names, but some users here, you may be able to identify some, will add a negative comment against viewer 2 like "i hate it" (is this construcive criticism?) following by a Phoenix ad. this type of spam has been going on since the old forums. its about time to get rid of those spammers too.

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@conoro,  I've never seen one of these posts that you refer to.  Could you point to an example or two?  I have hated viewer 2 ever since it came out and I've tried it more than once.  I do happen to use Phoenix, but not because of any negative ad campaign.  I use it because I like the features it has. 

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

@Rolig
yes, it is like the Mac vs. PC argument, fortunatly those differences are mostly forgotten. this is exactly the type of mentality that is unhealthy, for one to win the other has to lose.

Yup. You got it. This is another argument that should be forgotten too, and we have to start somewhere.  How about starting right here?  :smileywink:

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@kattatonia

im not sure if im allowed to do so, but ill give you some examples:

you can find 2 examples in the thread  "So all criticism of Viewer 2 is gone with the new system?"

one "criticizes" search to promote Phoenix and another is promoting dislike on Viewer 2 as "too bad" to promote Phoenix.

@Rolig

I want this argument to be forgotten too, the Phoenix vs Viewer 2, but i dont see it happen. it seems like this argument is still going. this is unhealthy to Second Life in general, promoting a war between viewers, diminish one to promote another. i could stay silent about it and let it happen or i can bring it to notice and maybe that technique could be considered griefing or spam and something can be done about it.

can it be considered spam?

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Rolig Loon wrote:

Yup. You got it. This is another argument that should be forgotten too, and we have to start somewhere.  How about starting right here?
  :smileywink:


 

It's kind of hard to forget it when every time something about v2 is posted somebody comes on and says how it doesn't work at all, has the worst UI ever made, is unwanted by 100% of the user base, and occasionally they will add some racist comments about the contract workers that coded it.

How often do you see v2 loves doing the same against phoenix?

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So your problem is not actually with Phoenix, but rather it's users due to how they promote it. I understand :)

I don't understand why people would think they need to promote Phoenix, it's doing just fine. I agree with you people should be a little more polite on the forums.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

@Ossian

i am not allowed to say names, but some users here, you may be able to identify some, will add a negative comment against viewer 2 like "i hate it" (is this construcive criticism?) following by a Phoenix ad. this type of spam has been going on since the old forums. its about time to get rid of those spammers too.

Thanks - I went looking for negative threads after I read your post, but I didn't dig down to the individual posts.

 

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Rolig Loon wrote:

Ho-hum. This is sort of like the old PC vs. Mac arguments.  There are partisans on both sides and there's always a conspiracy theorist around to make it interesting.  Once you get past the shouting, the fact is that we have a free market with good alternatives competing for consumer attention.  The competition keeps all the development teams on their toes and assures us that we can choose whichever product suits us best personally.  We all win.

Isn't that just a little too sensible for these forums? ;)

 

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It is not true that people who "hate" Viewer 2 will always hate it.  There are some things, for me, that annoy me to no end and I know I'm not alone; however, I really want to use it.  I like the graphics and don't mind the sidebar anymore, but with a broken search function and those huge profiles that take up the whole second life experience, I refuse to use it. 

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I want a viewer that works.

I don't use phonix yet. I ended up having to go back to version 1.23 for now.

Here are the current list of bugs I am trying to deal with in the 2.5 viewer.

1. the -login option breaks many things including cut and paste.

2. I can't access the "my notes" tab in profiles and I rely on that heavily to see who I have talked to IC

3. I can't edit my profile. all I see is a void(0) at the bottom and nothing happens when I click on the buttons. This is probably a firewall setting that I can't change.

4. I can't install earlier versions and keep them since the -login causes it to download the new version before I can edit the preferences.

I was able to use version 2.4 with some option changes. I turned off the sliding of the sidebar and a few other things.

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@Lulu

i dont see much of a reason to hate a software, that emotional energy pointed out to something you dont have to use, that is irrational hate, thats why i say that haters of Viewer 2 will always will no matter what, people see as an enemy something they hate.

@grumble

i understand that you have some concerns about Viewer 2. no viewer is perfect, proof of it is that all continue evolving. i dont claim Viewer 2 to be perfect, what i dont agree with is the method of diminishing one viewer to sell another.

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this has nothing to do with v2 or phoenix really....

it's quite simple... people find on software that doesn't work, they complain about it. they find another that does work, or works better, and they suggest it...

there is no "propaganda campaign" to drive people to phoenix, it's just what most are using that isn't what's being complained about....in this case v2.... in phoenix support chat you see the exact same thing... "this doesn't work for me, I'm going to go use<insert next most popular viewer>"... people suggest what they are familiar with.

and gues what? none of the viewer makers actually care... because it's not like they're getting paid for this.

 

for instance, I despise v2 because of several bugs, broken features, and design issues... In the past, for people with similar issues, I recomended Cool (because it's what I used) and Phoenix (because it was the most popular LISTED TPV) as alternatives for anyone with similar issues.... just like once upon a time I recommended the Nicholaz viewer.

it has nothing to do with promoting a specific viewer, and everything to do with solving a specific problem. don't like the default of X? here try Y or Z that doesn't have that issue.

 

 

and to be honest, this is LL's fault.... if they'd put any 2 TPV developers to work, doing nothing but validating and improving existing patches, already provided by the community,  for the default viewer, most people would never have any need for a TPV; and LL wouldn't be getting slammed over it's development.

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