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kurtstevenson

Sansar and Secondlife

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The whole point of LSL is the fact that the scripter is useing canned functions which allows even  a novice to write a script that works. That is why LL went down that route, there was also another additional reason but that is no longer  relivent.

Most in SL just want to turn a light on and off or other simple stuff and not learn to be programers. I niether have the time or the inclination to learn C# when i am never going to use it else where and nither are 90% of agents going to.

We had all this hype about mesh and the argument then was it would end up as a mostly pro only creators market and that is exacctly what has happened. Sansar will be even worse, if one wants to build and script then one will have to learn C# and something like Blender.  99% are not going to spend a year learning just to have a bit of fun. Also the cost of anything made by professionals will be eye watering.

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Gunwald Constantine wrote:

Also there is big difference between script and a program. The ramp to learn to write a c# script would be same as it would be learn lsl. Would not be that many differences. 

I can't agree with your 1st sentence that I've quoted.

There is no difference between a script and a program. Scripts are programmes, written in programming languages. The big difference between a script language and a general purpose one, such as C#, is that a scripting language is cut down from what a general purpose language is, and it specialises in functions that are useful for the environment in which the resulting programmes run. Hence, LSL is a programming language, for writing programmes that exactly suit the SL environment. It can't be used in any other environment. But it is a programming language, just the same, and, with it, people write programmes.

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steph Arnott wrote:

 

Most in SL just want to turn a light on and off or other simple stuff and not learn to be programers. I niether have the time or the inclination to learn C# when i am never going to use it else where and nither are 90% of agents going to.

We had all this hype about mesh and the argument then was it would end up as a mostly pro only creators market and that is exacctly what has happened. Sansar will be even worse, if one wants to build and script then one will have to learn C# and something like Blender.  99% are not going to spend a year learning just to have a bit of fun. Also the cost of anything made by professionals will be eye watering.

The most important aspect of changing to a more widely used, understood, and available programming language...is that it will open up the doors for *more people to be able to script, modify scripts/programs, etc.. C# is no more difficult to learn than LSL is, it's actually quite easy to be honest as there is far more documentation for beginners. Most who know how to script and understand LSL wil be able to program using C# with ease.

LSL is useless anywhere other than SL, and OpenSim(in some instances), so, LSL itself is an extremely useless programming language to more than 99% of the world.  C#, however, is not useless, and the tutorials, information and even examples available in C# is so widely available that ANY novice can still use it to script in Sansar(or anywhere else it might be used). It takes the "useless everywhere else" aspect off the table, so to speak, giving it one more check on the pro column, not the con. 

Though, truth be told  nearly ANY programming language other than LSL would be better for a virtual environment, for all of the same reasons...including the facts that they are widely used, widely documented, have numerous tutorials/examples, and actually have multiple uses. Ignoring the learning curve for programming in general, most don't vary so greatly that they will confuse the majority(including novices). 

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"LSL itself is an extremely useless programming language to more than 99% of the world"

People that come to SL ae rnot interested in the other 90% 99% world, that argument is moot.

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Quietly raising my hand as one of the 1% of folks (apparently) who came here because of the potential for art/creativity, and then settled into scripts as creativity-through-logic. Was not a 'programmer' or really into computers so much, in 2006. LSL was the first programming language I fully understood, now I write code professionally in a bundle of languages.

And yes, learning C# has been part of that.

Useless my patootie. :P

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Well was the same as you, but SL is too me and most is  just time out. I for one  am not interested in being a professional and i simply do not have the cells for it. I have enough RL stuff to do without adding something else for which is nothing more than a hobby.

As for young people i fully encourage their entrance to the programing world even thou it will all eventualy end up being done in places like India at a 100th of the cost.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ YMMV.

There's plenty here who've used SL to accomplish meaningful works, even if that's meant taking it serious temporarily. Would wonder how many other creators would equate their time here as a 'time out'.

My only reason to post in this thread was to dispel a couple of myths. Done. Would've been nice if other people in industry knew what LSL was before I had to explain it to them, but once explained they all understood the likely commonality. When other 3D platforms enabled client-coding in C# it seemed the obvious choice, have never struggled in coding under either language and one set of experience continues to inform the other.

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Well as 90% odd are not interested in either scripting or building in SL  so that leaves about 10% and most of them do it for a chalenge for them selves,.so that leave a small group that are like you. Also nearly all the scripters i know that are professional do not even come into SL except for testing or setting up a vendor and some of them have never been in SL at all.

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Perhaps we're talking at odds. If 90% aren't creators then the language/format of build tools and code backend don't matter to them. They'll only see the pretty things anyway.

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Perhaps we're talking at odds. If 90% aren't creators then the language/format of build tools and code backend don't matter to them.
They'll only see the pretty things anyway.

Not if I hide myself away and never come out :D

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Quietly raising my hand as one of the 1% of folks (apparently) who came here because of the potential for art/creativity, and then settled into scripts as creativity-through-logic. Was not a 'programmer' or really into computers so much, in 2006. LSL was the first programming language I fully understood, now I write code professionally in a bundle of languages.

And yes, learning C# has been part of that.

Useless my patootie.
:P

That's really good, Freya. Very well done indeed!

I'd stopped being a professional programmer long before you (or I) entered SL, and it took me quite a long time to start with LSL. In fact, since programming has been a hobby for me since the mid 80s (even when I was a pro it felt like a hobby), it surprised me how long it took before my interest in LSL wa sparked.

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Like some others in this thread and in SL, I was (still am sorta) a Professional Programmer ... at least a portion of my RL duties were production level programming. I've also done quite a bit of mentoring and teaching. My experience in the "Outside World" (other than in SL) has ranged from blank-slate newbies to ancient mariners of the Programming Mystical Seas.

Second Life is very much like a unique proprietary target platform similar to micro-computer based dedicated devices. Typically these platforms consist of custom hardware, custom peripherals and totally unique specific needs. Second Life is absolutely NOT a widely used and thus generic platform. Programming in SL is not like writing PHP or HTML for a web application. This distinction is very important to recognize before attempting to determine what type of programming language should be used.

LSL is a very simplified form of today's typical Structured Languages. A lot of common things found in more mainstream languages are not present in LSL. The data types supported are very limited and the run-time library small and very sparse in comparison to other languages.

But LSL does have a lot of benefits that simply cannot be found with any other language. It is (for all intents and purposes) an interpreted language. An LSL script is read and executed almost directly from the human-readable text format. Yes, I know it is precompiled, but that step is mostly hidden and doesn't really factor in the process of writing an LSL Script.

LSL also has a very extensive set of documentation as well as a very rich and deep Library of free scripts that demonstrate common applications and techniques. Combined with the simplicity of the LSL language, these resources are sufficient for even the rank beginner to successfully write a script of their own. And that's the most important part of all.

C# is a standard language designed and matured to fit an absolutely massive number of environments and applications. It is large, well documented and well supported by the community at large. But what it does not have is any support, or even comprehension of dedicated proprietary targets like Second Life.

I challenge you to find a single example of setting an Object's name in C#. You can't even find C# code examples of virtually anything done by 99% of the LSL scripts in existence. This is simply because C# was never designed .. nor will it ever be .. for a proprietary platform like Second Life. C# has always been and will always be a language intended to cover the greatest number of end-user needs. But it cannot nor should it be the basis of a custom target like SL.

But more to the point IMHO is the "Fear Factor" embodied in C#. Google "C# Examples" and what you find is a purely terrifying set of code excerpts that make even seasoned programmers clench up. Imagine being a beginning programmer in SL and finding those snippets as your starting reference. OMG!

Replacing LSL with C# would be a massive mistake in that it will require complete recreation of the history and documentation available for LSL. Not only would the subset of C# need to be developed, but the entirety of everything that is available for LSL would need to be recreated as well. Depending on existing C# resources would provide nothing useful .. and more probably completely wrong.

But WHY would LSL be replaced? Because C# is somehow "better" in the eyes of experienced programmers? It can only be "Better" if it can do everything LSL does now AND has the gentle on-ramp of LSL AND has the customizations needed to make it fully applicable to Second Life.

LSL is actually two languages: Mono and Pre-Mono. Why can't there be yet another language option that is based on C#? Rather than throw away and recreate everything already in existence for LSL, why not just port the existing code-base and documentation and then ADD the C# language as another option? As the "Next SL" dawns and the user base begins to grow, so can the support for and use of this new language grow too.

This should NOT be a discussion about replacing LSL. it should be a discussion of how to maintain the experience, education and benefits of LSL ... then extend them into larger and newer environments.

After all, Mesh didn't cause the end of Prims, it just extended the building choices.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

Like some others in this thread and in SL, I was (still am sorta) a Professional Programmer ... at least a portion of my RL duties were production level programming. I've also done quite a bit of mentoring and teaching. My experience in the "Outside World" (other than in SL) has ranged from blank-slate newbies to ancient mariners of the Programming Mystical Seas.

Second Life is very much like a unique proprietary target platform similar to micro-computer based dedicated devices. Typically these platforms consist of custom hardware, custom peripherals and totally unique specific needs. Second Life is absolutely NOT a widely used and thus generic platform. Programming in SL is not like writing PHP or HTML for a web application. This distinction is very important to recognize before attempting to determine what type of programming language should be used.

LSL is a very simplified form of today's typical Structured Languages. A lot of common things found in more mainstream languages are not present in LSL. The data types supported are very limited and the run-time library small and very sparse 
in comparison to other languages.

But LSL does have a lot of benefits that simply cannot be found with any other language. It is (for all intents and purposes) an interpreted language. An LSL script is read and executed almost directly from the human-readable text format. Yes, I know it is precompiled, but that step is mostly hidden and doesn't really factor in the process of writing an LSL Script.

LSL also has a very extensive
as well as a very rich and deep Library of free scripts that demonstrate common applications and techniques. Combined with the simplicity of the LSL language, these resources are sufficient for even the rank beginner to successfully write a script of their own. And that's the most important part of all.

C# is a standard language designed and matured to fit an absolutely massive number of environments and applications. It is large, well documented and well supported by the community at large. But what it does not have is any support, or even comprehension of dedicated proprietary targets like Second Life.

I challenge you to find a single example of setting an Object's name in C#. You can't even find C# code examples of virtually anything done by 99% of the LSL scripts in existence. This is simply because C# was never designed .. nor will it ever be .. for a proprietary platform like Second Life. C# has always been and will always be a language intended to cover the greatest number of end-user needs. But it cannot nor should it be the basis of a custom target like SL.

But more to the point IMHO is the "Fear Factor" embodied in C#. Google "C# Examples" and what you find is a purely terrifying set of code excerpts that make even seasoned programmers clench up. Imagine being a beginning programmer in SL and finding those snippets as your starting reference. OMG!

Replacing LSL with C# would be a massive mistake in that it will require complete recreation of the history and documentation available for LSL. Not only would the subset of C# need to be developed, but the entirety of everything that is available for LSL would need to be recreated as well. Depending on existing C# resources would provide nothing useful .. and more probably completely wrong.

But WHY would LSL be replaced? Because C# is somehow "better" in the eyes of experienced programmers? It can only be "Better" if it can do everything LSL does now AND has the gentle on-ramp of LSL AND has the customizations needed to make it fully applicable to Second Life.

LSL is actually two languages: Mono and Pre-Mono. Why can't there be yet another language option that is based on C#? Rather than throw away and recreate everything already in existence for LSL, why not just port the existing code-base and documentation and then ADD the C# language as another option? As the "Next SL" dawns and the user base begins to grow, so can the support for and use of this new language grow too.

This should NOT be a discussion about replacing LSL. it should be a discussion of how to maintain the experience, education and benefits of LSL ... then extend them into larger and newer environments.

After all, Mesh didn't cause the end of Prims, it just extended the building choices.

Nicely said.

The "plain language" factor of LSL does make entry easy.

But as far as the Next Generation Platform (code named Sansar) is concerned LL is not interested in being newb friendly.  Its target is people (creators) with advanced skills, the idea being that they will build experiences that the non technical will simply come and enjoy.  These non technical people will never know the joy of playing with prims or knacking together a script.

Part of the fun of SL at least for me has been when I wanted something putting it together myself.  While certainly the majority of things I have were made by other people, I have my own personal assortment of knick knacks that I made myself and they give me great pleasure.  My World, My Imagination.  

As I've said before, LL really does not care if we migrate over or not.  We, the current users of Second Life are not their target audience.  In fact because of our free form / free lance nature most SL users would be an irritant in Sansar.

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steph Arnott wrote:

"LSL itself is an extremely useless programming language to more than 99% of the world"

People that come to SL ae rnot interested in the other
90%
99% world, that argument is moot.

By that same logic, your claim that C# is useless, is a moot point. As it stands, LSL is the more useless programming language, with the biggest learning curve, and the least documented.

Also, I am fairly certain that MOST folks in SL, are actually interested in the rest of the world, lmao. You know, since we all kind of live in it ;) 

 

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Never once said C# was usless., where have i said that?

"Also, I am fairly certain that MOST folks in SL, are actually interested in the rest of the world, lmao. You know, since we all kind of live in it " sorry to inform you most camt to SL for fun and leave RL out.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 
Long meanigful post, I snipped to save space
:)

I do agree with many of your points, however you are ignoring one blaring fact that we have come to know since it's announcement.....Sansar, is not going to be catered to, or for, new folks, basic beginners, or people thta have absolutely zero interest in taking "outside"(lack of better terminology on my part, I apologize) knowledge and bringing it into a virtual environment.

LSL is a very good programming langauge that serves its purpose well, it also serves those new to programming quite well, because of its very basic nature(and I am not knocking LSL in the least).

C#, and other programming languages, generally speaking, have far more dedicated documentation, tutorials, even classes(online, free, in brick and mortar locations, etc..), as well as examples, which is why LL would, and is, seeking to utilize something different, for their very different platform.

If Sansar is going to cater to the non-newbies, the experienced, those seeking a challenge, etc... it makes far more sense to give those folks something a bit more widely known, understood, and documented with which to work.

Now, whether or not I agree with LLs choice(s), makes very little difference here, I wasn't speaking about my own ideal goals for Sansar, or LL, lol. From a programming perspective alone, LSL is useless everywhere but its intended platform alone, and other programming languages(C# included) are not useless everywhere else.

LSL does not have an easier learning curve for someone that has never programmed/written code before, ever, than any other programming language does. It might seem that way, especially to someone seasoned who has knowledge in multiple formats...but it really isn't. The learning curve is just as steep in either case. How one chooses to fix that, is, of course, varied.

I don't know why some folks seem to assume that everyone responding/reading has absolutely no other programming knowledge, but I assure you, some of us do, lol. I am very well versed on the low availablity of proper documentation for programming languages, and frankly, it's just not present anymore. There was a time when it was quite low, almost non-existent, but that is NOT the case today. In today's world, information is available at our fingertips.

The fact that there is an LSL library, does not change the fact that the majority of residents still have no clue how to use it, or how to implement it. I imagine the same, or similar, will exist in Sansar. Those with the knowledge necessary, or the desire to gain the knowledge, will press forward. Those without the knowledge, or desire, will do just as they do in SL, and sit back to enjoy the benefits of others' knowledge and desire. sort of a simbiotic relationship, I suppose. In either case, the language LL chooses is not going to be influenced by any of us...we're peons to them. But I can't imagine deciding not to make the best of it, if I had(have?) the desire to script/write code in Sansar, given the widely available information out there.

For reference sake, the first time I ever looked at any kind of programming...yeah, that was a o.O moment.Much the same that most who are new to LSL have, lol. Once one gets his/her feet wet though, it's relatively smooth sailing, or should be,(as long as desire and determination exist) due to the very wide world of available info..regardless of the language one chooses.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Nicely said.

The "plain language" factor of LSL does make entry easy.

But as far as the Next Generation Platform (code named Sansar) is concerned LL is not interested in being newb friendly.  Its target is people (creators) with advanced skills, the idea being that they will build experiences that the non technical will simply come and enjoy.  These non technical people will never know the joy of playing with prims or knacking together a script.

Part of the fun of SL at least for me has been when I wanted something putting it together myself.  While certainly the majority of things I have were made by other people, I have my own personal assortment of knick knacks that I made myself and they give me great pleasure.  My World, My Imagination.  

As I've said before, LL really does not care if we migrate over or not.  We, the current users of Second Life are not their target audience.  In fact because of our free form / free lance nature most SL users would be an irritant in Sansar.

You've exactly hit on the reason I predict bad times ahead for Project Sansar. It just makes no sense to me to throw away the decade-plus of experience, loyalty, expertise and benefits of SL. It's like demolishing a house and rebuilding it from scratch just because the living room is too small or the windows aren't facing the right direction.

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"LSL does not have an easier learning curve for someone that has never programmed/written code before" well i certainly found it easyer, tried Basic once a gave up, treid C and just did not even get past the first chapter. Read LSL and understood it easy. From a person that never wrote code before i was more than happy making a box move from at to b.

BTW, that book was C for idiots and i must been more than an idiot becouse it made no sense to me.

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A new product like Project Sansar, targeted at and for the "Experienced Creator", will take them many more years than just one or two before it's ready for release. They are aiming for a platform with all the complexity of 3D Graphics Engines plus the high-end development tools like Blender or Maya .. and the programming expertise of a C# guru. Each of those further narrows the pool of interested customers.

Then pile on top the fact that LL's customers for Sansar won't be there for their own fun but to make a profit? Those customers will also have to be dedicated sellers capable and willing to create their own online company, do the advertising and marketing needed to attract buyers, and run the entire enterprise on a shoestring.

Yeah ... I know one person in this world that MIGHT fit that narrow requirement. MIGHT. But last we talked, she had zero interest in doing anything requiring that much effort and upfront investment ... just for the income potential anticipated.

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Oh we totally agree (I think). You just said it more succinctly with far fewer words. Brevity is a skill I am still working to master.

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