Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Snowgoose Yootz

Is it right to involve people in something without their knowledge?

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone, 

Is it "right" to involve people in something without their knowledge?

I am meaning in particular a selection of games within SL that use non players as a source of food or power and put them on a database within that game.

Just a question for you, please feel free to comment!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Hi everyone, 

Is it "right" to involve people in something without their knowledge?

I am meaning in particular a selection of games within SL that use non players as a source of food or power and put them on a database within that game.

Just a question for you, please feel free to comment!

YES

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does it matter if they are affected or not? I do not see that matters, the question is or rather should be, should a game retain details of a person on an out of SL server, without that persons consent?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you don't know and weren't affected, why would you care?

 

You had better start being forever paranoid, how many shops have you visited that added you to a visitor list without you knowing for starters. RL, how many security cameras recorded your face this week?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Is it "right" to involve people in something without their knowledge?

This is pretty meta. Aren't you involving respondants to this thread in a larger agenda, without their knowledge? Is this any different to the behaviour you're taking issue with?

While your question clearly makes an appeal to some kind of relative morality (and is likely leading down a weird path of other such appeals), I think I can provide a reasonable answer.

Your issue seems to be with webservers and databases and the burden of consent. Anyone who's used webservers from the back-end is familiar with how much accounting goes on within these systems - each file on each server that's accessed is recorded with timestamps and identifying information - and this is the default behaviour for every webserver on the Internet. Every login action is tracked, each transaction is recorded. It's hard to argue that it's anything except the default behaviour for anyone cruising on TCP/IP - your server transaction will be logged. How many services log your behaviour on this forum? Have you ever looked? It's more than a few, and yet none provide active and prior consent notices (they tuck them away). In 2015 services overlap, XSS and content-sharing/CDN behaviour is commonplace, I bet most users couldn't even tell you which servers they're connected to right now, nor would they even be interested in finding out.

Many services also operate on a "free to play" model, such as Second Life, Facebook, Google. These services usually have copious legalese and are endlessly monetising user data by way of an exchange (the frequent adage, "if it's free, you're the product"). The 2015 Internet user fully expects that any contact with these services (even browsing to a webpage that displays a Facebook 'like' button) will report some kind of telemetry back to these information giants, as part of the "costs" of "free" web content. Those that aren't interested in the collection of their data are largely left to their own devices in counteracting this behaviour, the burden is on them to avoid or disable the collection methods, after all, no-one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to join Google+ (yet).

Given the above two cases it would be reasonably easy to argue that the user should expect non-identifying data to be stored by defauit (and indeed, this is seen as 'normal' to most users). In addition, collection of data that can be monetised has been shown to have a value to Internet services, and to the users that supply it - the value of this is typically the value offered by remaining a "part of a larger system". This is the burden of progress.

The only alternative to having your data stored and sold is to exclusively connect to webservers that you own. This is fine for some, but humans are social animals and the Internet would be a boring place if no-one ever went outside the local NAT. Should your tourist traffic be allowed to 'squat' on other peoples' cables for free? Do you have an expectation of being left alone as you traverse the cables? Largely, the government, the corporations, the ISPs and the sysadmins all say 'no'.

So is it 'right'? It's necessary and typical. It's difficult to argue that anything this widespread on the Internet could be 'wrong', it's clearly been embraced by both content providers, regulators and consumers. You're embracing it right now by participating in Linden Lab's world and posting on their forum (in exchange for an audience for perpetually airing grievances). So the question is "can you handle it?"

And that's up to you to decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

I am curious for an answer to my opening question (most of the later ones are rhetorical), as to whether you feel that leading people into making moral calls based on limited information is more ethical than scooping non-personal UUIDs for point-scoring accountancy in a private game. Is it acceptable to use us, as well as newcomers to the forums, as scoring pieces in a continued fight? And at what point does this become an attempt to bully another creator into doing what you want?

You might like to compare the severity of this moral greyness with real-world activities like geo-caching and how this has been received by accomodating parties. How about taking photographs in public places? Are there any real world examples you can draw on that show that passive (as in, not malicious or for advertising purposes) collection of non-personal information was ever 'wrong'? In which case there'd be no need for the leading question that opened this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes it's totally allowed, it's part of SL, without others building, being online, interact and much more ... it would be a boring place to be. You could better stand in the middle of your livingroom in rl and stare in the distance ....

If nobody is harmed they use nothing else than your shadow. In rl happens more with your identity than ever is possible on sl,and you know way less about who and when.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for bringing up photographs.  

Because Snowgoose's question reminded me of people who believe(d) that Photography Steals Their Souls.  

Really, I could make a game to play with friends in SL, "Find The Furries," and at the end of the night the person with the most Furry sightings wins.  And we could keep it secret from everyone else that we were doing it.  

So Snowgoose, would I be wrongfully imposing myself on Furries with this game?

Really Snowgoose, if being in SL is whittling away little pieces of your soul maybe it's not the best place for you.  Perhaps you should consider stopping before you turn into a soulless wraith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Perrie,

Thank you for contribution to this thread!

You seem to be under the misconception that this post was started as some kind of attempt to moan about something and that was not the intention at all. The purpose of my initial post was to gain a personal feeling as to what the (non Troll) populace of these forums thought about the concept of non players of certain systems being used (in a data sense) in a game that they had no knowledge of.

I make no accusations toward any PARTICULAR system, having learnt from previous postings that naming and shaming is frowned upon by certain moderators of these very forums.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Dear Perrie,

Thank you for contribution to this thread!

You seem to be under the misconception that this post was started as some kind of attempt to moan about something and that was not the intention at all. The purpose of my initial post was to gain a personal feeling as to what the (non Troll) populace of these forums thought about the concept of non players of certain systems being used (in a data sense) in a game that they had no knowledge of.

I make no accusations toward any PARTICULAR system, having learnt from previous postings that naming and shaming is frowned upon by certain moderators of these very forums.

 

 

Can a leopard lose its spots or a zebra its stripes?

Or as they say, if it walks like a duck. quacks like a duck and farts in the water it's most likely that it is a duck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

an interesting analogy Perrie, but surely off topic?

I was replying to your response so not at all.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how to exist without involving people in something without their knowledge. I'm constantly observing people and making judgments based on those observations. Not only that, but I also often manipulate the situations I'm in without broadcasting my intentions. I think that's pretty normal behavior.

I don't think the drunken frat boys of my college days ever sought permission from the girls to rank them on a scale of 1-10. Nor do I alert people that catch my eye that I'm thinking about what I might do with them if I ever got the chance, or had the skill.

I agree with you Freya, Snowgoose appears to be self-unaware.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure.  Why not?

I leave comments in profiles all the time.  Those people are involved in that where ever they go I have a little note tagged to their profile only I can see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose its a matter of personal feelings really. There should be an opt out option in a rp game or other thing in SL that keeps the info of the person private or hidden like the garlic necklaces do

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if I was say a boss vampire and a mosquito came along and try suck my blood I would like just smash it with my powers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...