phaedra Exonar Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Should merchants be charging customers group liability fees to be in there product up date group. I just noticed today that I was getting charged to be a group, so I contacted the merchant and sent them the transaction history and told them that I just wanted to let them know they might want to change the group settings. I was a bit surprised at their response. I was told that it was LL taking my $ not the merchant, and then told they would never be that cheep, then they told me if 1L$ was too much for me that I should leave the group and join their scribomatic group. I then told the merchant that I had a friend who set up a new group that was charging people and that they had been able to fix it, the merchants reply was that their land had been set up this way for months, end of conversation. I don't care about 1L$, but I'm out of work in RL and can't afford to have unnecessary recurring expenses in SSL. I really like this merchants work and was just trying to help them out. So I want to know if other merchants had groups that charged group liability fees, and how to set up groups to avoid them, I'm just starting to set up a shop, and when I make a group for customers I want to make sure they don't have to pay to be in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 We just had this issue come up about that ourselves. I believe that it's set as the default for the everyone role, so there are a lot of groups owners that have it on without realizing it. Best you can do is to contact them and let them know in case it's not intentional. Don't think personally it's a good idea to charge your customers in a group though, it just sends the wrong message, but it's the group owners choice of course. Not sure why the person you spoke to wouldn't just change it rather than point you to another group, but again, their choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Orellana Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 It is unfortunate that many merchants in SL feel they are all high and mighty and really do not know how to conduct themselves in a professional manner. I see this too often in SL. The best thing you can do is leave the group and never buy from that person ever again, over time they lose enough business they end up shutting down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Galland Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Oh geez... Unfortunately, this is the default group setting and happens to people in the Everyone role as stated above. But, it is so easy to correct and well within the business owner's ability. Go to group and click the right box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vania Chaplin Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Most new group owners don't know, or forget, that liability fees are paid for everyone as default. When I've made my groups, I was certain that only owners (or, in one case, officers too) was paying group fees before invite anyone to join the group. In your case, phaedra, simply leave the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiffy Vella Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 gahhhh! I had no idea this was the default either. (trotting off to check my ticky-boxes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Tiffy Vella wrote: gahhhh! I had no idea this was the default either. (trotting off to check my ticky-boxes) I did the same thing. Thank you for mentioning this phaedra. (PS: I only found one that was "wrong" and that was on a closed group that only my family is in. Comes outta my pocket one way or another anyway. LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I don't think there is an absolute yes or no answer regarding who should pay for group membership (well, except that LL should not be charging anyone for it). My partner and I pay LL for the group expense rather than charging group members, but I'm wondering if I want to set it so the group members share some of that cost. Our group is large so we're paying almost 20 real dollars a month to LL for our group, and if my sales continue to go down it's an expense I won't be able to afford. I think the question for each merchant with this decision is...what is your group for? What are the advantages or disadvantages regarding who pays these costs. For example, if you believe your groups visibility in others profiles is great advertising for you I would think your cost would be worth it. If your group is made up of people waitng for you to offer freebies or announce your latest release so they can try to copy it then it's best to let them shoulder some of the cost (probably most would drop out of the group though..lol). If your group is made up of people who really admire your work, want to support you, and want to know when you have updates they might want to purchase I would think they'd be willing to shoulder some of the cost. I'm thinking of moving to that last scenario. They all know I appreciate their business, and a few pennies isn't going to cause a crisis for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Orellana Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Luna Bliss wrote: I don't think there is an absolute yes or no answer regarding who should pay for group membership (well, except that LL should not be charging anyone for it). You are paying for the right to have land owned by the gorup show up in search, so yes...it is very fair that LL charges such a fee (it is only 30L per week for crying out loud). The decision of having land show up in search is yours and not your members. Luna Bliss wrote: . My partner and I pay LL for the group expense rather than charging group members, but I'm wondering if I want to set it so the group members share some of that cost. Our group is large so we're paying almost 20 real dollars a month to LL for our group, and if my sales continue to go down it's an expense I won't be able to afford. How on earth is it 20$USD? do do you have that many sims/parcels you must have showing on search? The fee is only 30L per week per parcel, that is only 120L per month. Luna Bliss wrote: If your group is made up of people waitng for you to offer freebies or announce your latest release so they can try to copy it then it's best to let them shoulder some of the cost (probably most would drop out of the group though..lol). If your group is made up of people who really admire your work, want to support you, and want to know when you have updates they might want to purchase I would think they'd be willing to shoulder some of the cost. I'm thinking of moving to that last scenario. They all know I appreciate their business, and a few pennies isn't going to cause a crisis for them. A few pennies should not cause YOU any crisis either then? If you do not know how to conduct business you should not be in business, period. Groups are used as an advertising tool. Do you think it would be fair for...say McDonald's to charge you a fee so they can afford advertising? of course not, you are already purchasing their prodicts are you not? Your claims are ridiculous, IMO. No merchant who has any integrity will ever charge its customers for something as trivial as the 30L group liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I don't think we should pay to have our land show up in Search, for group creation, or even for texture uploads. In fact, with Search being as messed up as it is and so many businesses failing, and with LL making 75 million in profit, I think they should pay us to stay here. And now that the gas has been turned on in Zindra they should get a refund for their land. Groups are about more than 'advertising' George....they are about community - something I doubt you understand much given your hostile attitude. I've never been sure if the weekly fee we pay (closer to 12 dollars a month for our 4 sims and 1 Homestead rather than 20 as I thought before) is tied to the land or the amount of people in the group. $12 a month is a significant cost though, and if those in the group feel your offerings in SL are good enough it's not unfair to ask them to help. I created a 5-sim nature area under my store for the public (one of the most beautiful in SL so I'm told) and I think areas like this especially deserve some support. I really didn't mind paying it when my earnings were so much greater, but I'd rather have some support with the park than condense my store/gardens and X most of the park (using it for store prims instead). I do have a donation box set up, and am appreciative of those who do contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vania Chaplin Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Of course, its your right to *not* agree with it, but the fact remains that there is a L$ 30 a week fee to appear in Search. It is your choice to accept this and be in search or refuse to pay the fee and be out of search. And I don't think it is justifiable to charge your customers for the expenses derivated from your own choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 @Vania Sure it's my choice to have my store show in Search and accept the costs, but that choice benefits others too, and it would be nice if so many stopped having such a freebie mentality - this is destroying in-world businesses. Communities aren't valued anymore - people come in and expect to attend concerts and roam land for free...land that sim owners pay a lot for, and pay musicians a lot to play at. And new people expect content to be free too, further eroding in-world businesses. In the old days of SL there was more a sense of community on group owned land. Participants in the group were willing to pay some to get the benefits of the land. With help from the community support, and sales from content sim owners could afford to provide great spaces for SL residents. Most sim owners can't afford to provide beautiful gardens and live music anymore....it's making SL turn into a boring mix of stores and rental land. It's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relm Foxdale Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Knowingly charging people to be in a store group is a jerk move. Store groups are supposed to be for store promotion. It's one of the costs the merchant is supposed to swallow or work into their system elsewhere, like all their rental costs, texture uploads, whatever. It's like "pay me to shop in my store" or something. Another one that's really lame is in-store donation objects--"Keep the store in business! Donate!" Um, revenue is supposed to come from sales. Sell stuff or go out of business. That's how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlyn Gothly Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Relm Foxdale wrote: Knowingly charging people to be in a store group is a jerk move. Store groups are supposed to be for store promotion. It's one of the costs the merchant is supposed to swallow or work into their system elsewhere, like all their rental costs, texture uploads, whatever. It's like "pay me to shop in my store" or something. Another one that's really lame is in-store donation objects--"Keep the store in business! Donate!" Um, revenue is supposed to come from sales. Sell stuff or go out of business. That's how it works. Totally agree with Relm. The only contradition to that is that I saw a group charging 200L to join, but offered really high quality expensive group gifts.....for that I wouldnt mind paying so much, as long as I knew i was getting something back. Cait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I would hate for those encountering stores charging group membership fees to be thought of as 'jerks' or as so corrupt that one should never buy at their store (as was suggested above). Reality is seldom so black and white and one most must undergo a more careful scrutiny of each store to determine what's right or wrong. When encountering groups that do ask group members to shoulder costs I try to determine if what they provide is above and beyond selling merchandise for profit, and if so I don't mind contributing with a group fee. It's good to determine, for example, if they provide a public space such as a park, live concerts, art galleries, or other public services alongside their store. We need to support these communities before SL degrades into a world of boring stores and sandpit rentals. Or worse, not an immersive contiguous land at all, but instead simply isolated rooms of bobbleheaded cartoon characters content to chat and have a space to change their purses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra Exonar Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 I've been looking into this since I first posted this question. One thing that seams to make a huge difference is if the land is deeded to group, if it is the groups members are all so responsible for the groups tier and other chargeable fees, if the default accounting setting isn't changed. This makes sense for a group of people that want to own a sim together, but I would think is the wrong way to make a product update group for a merchant selling clothes, I don't think that customers should ever pay for some one else tier, specially if there not told about it. The person that had the group that charged me simply didn't know the default was set to charge the group and she quickly changed it once she know what was going on, and thanked me for letting her know. On the other hand if deeded land is sold or objects deeded to group make $ then it's split up between the group members. I think it would be a good feature to have that when joining any group with a group liability that you get a warning telling you that that you will be responsible for group expenses by joining the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blot Brickworks Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 My first group I did not know that pay was the default until my alts all had 1L$ deducted. I was gobsmacked and had to post on the forums to find out about it.I sorted it pronto and sent a refund to the people concerned,not a lot of people to be honest. I really think the default should be reversed to save all the hastle................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Orellana Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 @phaedra. Group liability is only tied to the choice of having a pracel owned by the group show up in search, currently the fee is 30L per week. It has nothing to do with land tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Collingwood Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 George Orellana wrote: @phaedra. Group liability is only tied to the choice of having a pracel owned by the group show up in search, currently the fee is 30L per week. It has nothing to do with land tier. Yes! This and the default charge for The Everyone Role is the first thing folks should look at right after creating a group. That said I must dash In-World to see if any of my groups are wrong;-) lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra Exonar Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hi George, the information I got came from the SL Wiki, from what it saying, tier would only be charged to a group that has land deeded to a group. Just having land set to group isn't the same as having it deeded to a group. May be this information is out of date? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Group#Groups_and_Money look in the section "groups and money" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Orellana Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 phaedra Exonar wrote: Hi George, the information I got came from the SL Wiki, from what it saying, tier would only be charged to a group that has land deeded to a group. Just having land set to group isn't the same as having it deeded to a group. May be this information is out of date? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Group#Groups_and_Money look in the section "groups and money" It is my understanding that group liabilities are not tied to tier. I have been in some groups where pay liabilities was checked by default and each member of the group was only charged 1L, if tier had been part of the fee then it would have been much more than 1L as the group was rather small. I would love to hear from any land owner who can prove me wrong and show that group liabilities are tied to land tier. If this was the case then any group with 300+ members who own a sim would never be complaining about not being able to meet their tier fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vania Chaplin Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 No phaedra. I have group land. Me and my partner have premium account, wich means that each can have tier free 512 sq m. We both have deeded the land to group, but to do that we have too to give the rights for these tier free to the group. If we wish to have more land one of us have to pay the tier and donate the rights to the group. Remember that LL never charges tiers in L$, ever in US$. No matter how, the group can have only L$, never US$, so there is no way for LL charge the group, only a responsible account that had donate the tier rights to group. Than we go to the point were I cannot understand. If a group has land, someone (not the group) is paying actual US$ to LL. It ranges from US$ 72 a year (minimum, with a 512 sq m plot =~18,000 L$) to US$ 300 a month (a full private sim =~ 75,000 L$), and there is no way to divide this with group members with the tools that we had. All share must be made with full private accordance among the participants (and a lot of confidence that people will honour the agreement). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Vania is correct. I have co-owned land with others too. All tier fees are paid to LL according to how much tier one purchases from them. If one pays for tier, one can either use it to own land, donate it to one or more groups, or not use it for anything. If one is a co-owner of group land, then all owners are responsible for paying their tier payments to LL & all can sell or abandon part or all of the land whenever they wish. Co-owning land wirh others is very risky, because if one person stops paying their tier, you could lose part or all of your land, and if they decide to sell the land out from under you, they can do that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra Exonar Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Persephone and Vania thanks for the answers, so the info in the wiki isent referring to L$ payments for liabilities but real money based on tier donated to the group, makes more sense now, if I'm getting that right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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