What can users do about copybots?

[HughJegow]

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Nothing like the old, "I have no idea what it is or how it works, but I suspect that it's the problem." routine.

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You have stolen Ebbe's future defence of SL V2!!!

[Chance Acoustic]

They caught her!!!

and yes I was defensive and I apologise for that but

when anyone has anything like this happens why do other users turn on the person it happens to and try to find other explanations?

I've been told that maybe I put 'crappy' scripts in my vendors to make them self destruct - really? 

What about the idea that someone hacked my account because i downloaded a dodgy viewer? Never happened!

This was a destructive individual who sat at the edge of the sim for hours over several days destroying my work. She had been doing this on small scale for weeks before she started destroying the meshes!

It's only because someone spotted her cam and her edit lines directed at items in my stall as they disappeared that she got caught. 

Finally it's over! Moving on ... 

[Qie Niangao]

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Chance Acoustic wrote:

They caught her!!!

and yes I was defensive and I apologise for that but

when anyone has anything like this happens why do other users turn on the person it happens to and try to find other explanations?

I've been told that maybe I put 'crappy' scripts in my vendors to make them self destruct - really? 

What about the idea that someone hacked my account because i downloaded a dodgy viewer? Never happened!

This was a destructive individual who sat at the edge of the sim for hours over several days destroying my work. She had been doing this on small scale for weeks before she started destroying the meshes!

It's only because someone spotted her cam and her edit lines directed at items in my stall as they disappeared that she got caught. 

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Okay, but how was she doing this? What was she actually doing? Not using copybot, right? (And yet you're still being aggressive about folks who suggested things that might account for the actual observations.)

[Chance Acoustic]

I am not being aggressive.

I have been stressed out of my mind for days just trying to get people to understand that this was not a glitch or anything that i'd done. How many times have people told me in these threads that it simply wasn't possible for someone to delete my objects? 

I don't know how she did it but she did. She was taking the objects inside and I don't think she needed to destroy the objects but she did. She even destroyed an innocent table that didn't contain any objects at all. Doesn't matter how irrational you think I am for suggesting that is what happened ... that is the reality.

Who gave me explanations that accounted for the observations?

If someone had access to my account they would take my money not delete a load of pixel wool and pixel bread!!!!

Why would I ask her how she did it? 

I've never met her or spoken to her and I'm hardly likely to start now.

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

untill it's proven otherwise it's hard to believe for me this is real.

[Chance Acoustic]

My point exactly.

You aren't going to take my word for it and frankly that is insulting

 

[Hoshi Kenin]

Welcome to the wonderful world of the 'forumites', as I call them.    This is their domain, not SL.   Except, when I step in, of course, and shake them up...which is impossibly easy to do, but sadly v necessary.

 However, I cannot do that often as I have a life RL and SL.   Virtually all of them spend considerably more time in the forums than inworld.  Go figure.

Note, how your problems were not viewed sympathetically.   Note the names.  You leave these forums far wiser ).  Glad the culprit got caught.

[Pamela Galli]

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Chance Acoustic wrote:

My point exactly.

You aren't going to take my word for it and frankly that is insulting

 

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That s not how the world works. No intelligent person just takes some stranger's word for something, esp when that strangers word contradicts years of experience and is without any kind of proof.

if there is anything long time users have learned, it is what griefers and copiers can and cannot do, and they cannot do what you claim. so if you want to be insulted when no one buys your story, I predict you are going to spend a lot of time insulted.

Claiming "she was caught" means nothing except apparently that someone was seen inspecting something.

 

[irihapeti]

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Chance Acoustic wrote:

 this was not a glitch ... How many times have people told me in these threads that it simply wasn't possible for someone to delete my objects? 

 

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it is a glitch. a bork. when the sim deletes stuff and dont return it

has been issues lately with no-copy items being deleted off the sim in some circumstances. Something the LL engineers have been working on to fix

can repro this in part in some cases. For example:

find a group owned land which is set to rez for group only. Be a member of that group. Dont wear your group tag. Drag drop the no-copy item onto the land. Poof! the item is gone and is not returned

is other circumstances as well where can repro the loss of no-copy items, but I not get into them

is not a copybot tho. or a scam either, when the sim borks like this

    

[Qie Niangao]

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Hoshi Kenin wrote: Note the names.

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Yeah. Speaking of names, as usual, your "contribution" only serves to further raise the level of aggression, already counterproductive in this thread.

We still don't know what really happened -- and for that matter, the OP also doesn't know that suggestions made here weren't the underlying means by which the items were deleted. If that's really unknowable, once they saw what appeared to be the act in progress, somebody should (did they?) file a jira, classified "SEC", with enough details that the Lab can go back and check what vulnerability allowed this to occur. There's no doubt SL has vulnerabilities, and we residents can't see the SEC jiras, so we can't tell if this is a known exploit or something new.

The reason anybody spends time on reports such as this is to try to find an explanation that accounts for the events, and if such an explanation can't be found, then try to isolate the vulnerability as much as possible to limit everybody's exposure. It takes time and effort to do that, and after a while it gets old being told how sorry the OP feels for themselves and how unhelpful it is that folks are doing their best to help.

That, as opposed to banding together in a fire circle chanting "Copybot !quit Copybot !quit" and devising witch-burning rituals.

[Perrie Juran]

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Chance Acoustic wrote:

My point exactly.

You aren't going to take my word for it and frankly that is insulting

 

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/me sighs

Much to Hoshi's chagrin, some of us spend time in this Forum.  Some of us have been doing so for several years.  And we have heard many many claims of many many supposed hacks that when we got into the nitty gritty it turned out to not be a hack.

So while I can't speak for everyone of course we are skeptical.  

Second Life, to state the obvious, has a permissions system that controls who can do what with what.

It is controlled server side and LL has it screwed down pretty damn tight.

If someone has found a hole in the system, as Qie has pointed out, that would be, in this case, a (major) security hole.  

But here is the thing, having read through your accounts of what has happenned the potential for user error is there, mistakes that could account for what happenned.  Sometimes silly little mistakes where people didn't even realize the consequence of their actions or that they had done it.

So before we jump and say, OMG the sky is falling down, we look closely.  

After all, you don't want this to happen to you again nor do we want to see these kind of things happen.

[BaronGuntharBerntVonVought]

Having read through this thread it sounds to me like you had your vendors permission settings setup incorrectly rather than a case of copybot. Let me give you an example, if I put out my nice big ball that I created and set it for sale but have it's permission settings as transfer, no-copy, no-modify well then guess what? When someone comes along sees my ball for sale and clicks buy/pay on it then that ball disappears from the land and is transferred to the new owners inventory. The only way I would then retain a copy of my nice big ball is if I had made a backup copy with full perms in my inventory otherwise it's lost to me for good. In such a situation I would not be the victim of a scam nor would I be the victim of a copybot. No, I would be the victim of my own stupidity or ignorance for not understanding how to set the permissions correctly on my items for sale and not keeping a good full perm backup copy in my inventory.

[JoJo Aurelia]

I read this whole thing.  Dude,  how is it possible if you made something you don't have a Copy? 

[Pamela Galli]

Setting the perms to transfer does not do what you describe. however, if you set it to "sell original" then the buyer can take the floor sample into their innventory. And if you failed to take a copy of the item after setting it up, then you just lost your only copy.

[JoJo Aurelia]

If he took it into inventory to put in a vendor, where is the copy?  SL always duplicates unless he put a new copy script into his object, then it when he duplicate. I'm still confused from the original post it sounded like he was making something and then put a new vendor and they were taken, so there's substep missing that would have made his original build not copy. Well it seems this thread is dead now so I won't read further. But I would have liked to have known how he ended up with no copies if he brought it into inventory. He must have deleted that build. I make original clothing that requires a no copy script that I purchase. So there have been times when I sold the last one and had to repackage my build But I have copies of everything that put it together. Just would like conclusion as to how he had no copies., I think then the lesson learned is keep copies, in that case it's really the builders fault. And every builder has made things that they've lost for a various amount of reasons, not all related to second line but just being stupid and not doing backups. It's really important when they're doing restarts to save your items that he already stated that that wasn't the issue.

[Pamela Galli]

You can wind up with no copies if you make something in your store, forget to take a copy, set it to sell original, then someone buys it and takes it into inventory. 

 

(i know from experience.)

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You can wind up with no copies if you make something in your store, forget to take a copy, set it to sell original, then someone buys it and takes it into inventory. 

 

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Ummmm, in his OP it was stated:

"If I put weeks of work into creating really complex vendors with 1000's of lindens worth of other people's no-copy items inside....."

So what would the settings have to be on the item in order for a script to handle the sale and delivery of the item?

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You can wind up with no copies if you make something in your store, forget to take a copy, set it to sell original, then someone buys it and takes it into inventory. 

 

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Ummmm, in his OP it was stated:

"

If I put weeks of work into creating really complex vendors with 1000's of lindens worth of

other people's no-copy items

inside....."

So what would the settings have to be on the item in order for a script to handle the sale and delivery of the item?

 

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If the vendor and contents were transfer, and the vendor was set to sell original, anyone could buy iT.

[Perrie Juran]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You can wind up with no copies if you make something in your store, forget to take a copy, set it to sell original, then someone buys it and takes it into inventory. 

 

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Ummmm, in his OP it was stated:

"

If I put weeks of work into creating really complex vendors with 1000's of lindens worth of

other people's no-copy items

inside....."

So what would the settings have to be on the item in order for a script to handle the sale and delivery of the item?

 

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If the vendor and contents were transfer, and the vendor was set to sell original, anyone could buy iT.

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But we don't want to sell the Vendor.  Just the 'no copy (to me)' contents in the Vendor.

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You can wind up with no copies if you make something in your store, forget to take a copy, set it to sell original, then someone buys it and takes it into inventory. 

 

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Ummmm, in his OP it was stated:

"

If I put weeks of work into creating really complex vendors with 1000's of lindens worth of

other people's no-copy items

inside....."

So what would the settings have to be on the item in order for a script to handle the sale and delivery of the item?

 

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If the vendor and contents were transfer, and the vendor was set to sell original, anyone could buy iT.

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But we don't want to sell the Vendor.  Just the 'no copy (to me)' contents in the Vendor.

 

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Then dont sell the vendor. I am describing how an object can seem to have been stolen when really it was set to sell original. I have no clue what happened to the OPs stuff -- could be some thing like irihapeti's example. 

[irihapeti]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

You can wind up with no copies if you make something in your store, forget to take a copy, set it to sell original, then someone buys it and takes it into inventory. 

 

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Ummmm, in his OP it was stated:

"

If I put weeks of work into creating really complex vendors with 1000's of lindens worth of

other people's no-copy items

inside....."

So what would the settings have to be on the item in order for a script to handle the sale and delivery of the item?

 

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If the vendor and contents were transfer, and the vendor was set to sell original, anyone could buy iT.

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But we don't want to sell the Vendor.  Just the 'no copy (to me)' contents in the Vendor.

 

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Then dont sell the vendor. I am describing how an object can seem to have been stolen when really it was set to sell original. I have no clue what happened to the OPs stuff -- could be some thing like irihapeti's example. 

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i am now suspect that is exactly as you describe

the OP said that stuff has been disappearing from inside the vendors as well, disappearances for which they cant see any explanation

is a hole in their vendor system somewhere/somehow

[Qie Niangao]

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irihapeti wrote: [...]

the OP said that stuff has been disappearing from inside the vendors as well, disappearances for which they cant see any explanation

is a hole in their vendor system somewhere/somehow

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That was my theory back on page 2, but the OP seemed to think that catching the apparent perpetrator disproved it:

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I've been told that maybe I put 'crappy' scripts in my vendors to make them self destruct - really?

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As you  note, though, the "faulty vendor script" theory has parsimony on its side: we know how a script could easily both llDie() the whole object or llRemoveInventory() itself or anything else from contents. Otherwise we have to postulate a viewer with magical ability to delete whole objects plus the extra magic of deleting stuff from inside objects and leaving the shells. Sure, maybe, but that theory is about as testable as the "pixie dust from unicorn farts" theory.

[Pamela Galli]

But apparently all this "catching" of the perp consisted of was someone saw someone inspecting one of these objects? If so, hardly proof of anything.

As far as how the scripts could disappear from contents -- could be any kind of user error. Like the vendor could be set to sell contents, or to give contents on touch.

But I will say this: I do a lot of customer service, and everytime there is any kind of mysterious disappearance or moving of stuff, and I ask the owner if he has given edit rights to anyone, the answer is always yes. Always. 

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

I can see an explanation, although I'm not nearly sure it is what happened. If the vendor was deeded to group, it would be possible for other group members to not only take the entire thing, but also to mess with the contents.

[irihapeti]

it could be a combination of things going on

independent events happening which when all come together gives the: to those in misery, misery is magnified

+

if lose the whole vendor off the sim then we can see how that can happen

if lose no-copy stuff from within the vendor then Pamela explain quite well how that can happen

if lose other stuff then we can see how that can happen if is a hole in the scripts, and Qie explain about that

and also if somebody else has edit rights like you have mentioned. And even not maliciously can do all kinds of damage unwittingly with edit rights on other peoples stuff. And never say nothing afterwards when it goes horrible wrong. Like o.m.g!! nooo!!! i like totally ruined it. I never meant for that to happen. And then they run away and dont own up to it

 +

the alternative to all the above is a massive hole in the server side, which somebody has found, and are exploiting. However, if so then I think that lots of others would be under attack right now, not just OP