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Default avatar shape in Sansar


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I know they've said they intend to have a much more complex avatar skeleton than we have in SL, but I think it's probably too early to be asking about whether they'll definitely have particular features or not.   They're still in the early stages of building the platform, after all.

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maybe the facial expressions you heard was with the project of High Fidelity, something that the creator of Second Life, Phillip Rosedale, has been working on, here is an example:

it is unknown how much of High Fidelity will be included in Sansar, if the technlogies seem beneficial to Sansar, they might be included.

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aristoteles Himanez wrote:

I ve heard something about facial expressions. Is it true or just a myth?

Ebbe did mention this at one point. not enough details were given to tell if this feature would be licensed from HiFi or be an independent implementation.

my guess is an independent system, only because what HiFi currently has relies on experimental hardware.

 
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Of course, you never know with LL, but I think it is safe to say that Sansar will have facial expressions. The question is really how will they do them. Will they do them with bones, or strictly morphs. If with bones, then they would need a minimum of 15 facial bones. With facial bones, then any characters could have expressions, even custom made avatars. If they use blend shapes for facial expressions, then they don't need any facial bones. With blend shapes tho, LL would need to allow us to upload our own blend shapes in the fbx files, and then even custom avatars could have facial expressions. Of course blend shapes would be awesome for custom avatars, but creators could go crazy with them, adding lots of total data to each avatar. Even bones adds data too tho.

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Of course, you never know with LL, but I think it is safe to say that Sansar will have facial expressions. The question is really how will they do them. Will they do them with bones, or strictly morphs. If with bones, then they would need a minimum of 15 facial bones. With facial bones, then any characters could have expressions, even custom made avatars. If they use blend shapes for facial expressions, then they don't need any facial bones. With blend shapes tho, LL would need to allow us to upload our own blend shapes in the fbx files, and then even custom avatars could have facial expressions. Of course blend shapes would be awesome for custom avatars, but creators could go crazy with them, adding lots of total data to each avatar. 

 

Yesterday I was reading this thread "ask the CEO" and if I remember well Edde said that 

- HIFI is a different program that will not be a part of Sansar (so maybe no facial expressions?)

- There will be a very flexible customizable avatar

- There will be many sceletons supported

- and something about user created avatars will not be customizable, I think? 

That was a 19 pages thread, plus I have no idea about all this hi tech staff, so it is very difficult for me to understand. 

 

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I'm really worried about SL2. Sure, it will have many improvements. But I spend so much time and money on putting my SL together with a mix of mesh and non-mesh. Some of my most beloved stuff is non-mesh. And you can't take that with you to SL2! Even my avatar is non-mesh. What is the point of SL when there is no future for my SL?? It all seems so useless now and the fun has really gone out of it.. I have gone to so much trouble, I don't want to start from scratch! Sad greetings, TL. 

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toscalaurence wrote:

I'm really worried about SL2. Sure, it will have many improvements. But I spend so much time and money on putting my SL together with a mix of mesh and non-mesh. Some of my most beloved stuff is non-mesh. And you can't take that with you to SL2! Even my avatar is non-mesh. What is the point of SL when there is no future for my SL?? It all seems so useless now and the fun has really gone out of it.. I have gone to so much trouble, I don't want to start from scratch! Sad greetings, TL. 

Maybe you shouldn't think of it as SL 2 (because it isn't SL2). You will not be able to transfer ANYTHING between the two world. They are seperate in every aspect. And Second Life will not close its door immediatly after Sansar gets released and Sansar won't come any time soon.

Also its kind of illogical so suddenly think of SL as more useless than before. Its on the same level of "uselessness" like it was months or years ago. I mean...did you expect SL to stay Linden Labs only product or did you think it will run till you die of old age? In the back of your mind you always knew there would be an end at some point. You still don't know when this will be...so nothing has really changed.

Compare it to getting a puppy. You know its time on earth is limited and that you will see its end and that it might come sudden and sooner than you hoped...but does that mean the time you spend with this animal is less fun or pointless? Its the same with SL. You invest time and money into it, because you have (probably) fun spending your time with it.

And you can be glad. Overall, SL has been a pretty long living dog so far.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Normally it's done with morphs. When you have a jaw bone and two eye bones, what more bones would you need? Those are the only parts that can actually move. The rest is musles and skin, which are best to imitate with morphs.

It's perfectly possible to animate a face with bones. As you can see here.

 

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

aren't the handicapped pets always the cutest?


I can honestly say that in all my years of perusing Mr Guccione's magazine I never saw one that was in the least handicapped.

Other than by the normal deficiencies of their gender.

Alec - being an animal lover

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aristoteles Himanez wrote:

Of course, you never know with LL, but I think it is safe to say that Sansar will have facial expressions. The question is really how will they do them. Will they do them with bones, or strictly morphs. If with bones, then they would need a minimum of 15 facial bones. With facial bones, then any characters could have expressions, even custom made avatars. If they use blend shapes for facial expressions, then they don't need any facial bones. With blend shapes tho, LL would need to allow us to upload our own blend shapes in the fbx files, and then even custom avatars could have facial expressions. Of course blend shapes would be awesome for custom avatars, but creators could go crazy with them, adding lots of total data to each avatar. 

 

Yesterday I was reading this thread "ask the CEO" and if I remember well Edde said that 

- HIFI is a different program that will not be a part of Sansar (so maybe no facial expressions?)

- There will be a very flexible customizable avatar

- There will be many sceletons supported

- and something about user created avatars will not be customizable, I think? 

That was a 19 pages thread, plus I have no idea about all this hi tech staff, so it is very difficult for me to understand. 

 

-Just because HIFI and Sansar are different programs, this doesn't imply, at all, that Sansar will not have expressions. I'll pretty much guarantee you that, if LL does it right, the same avatars made for HIFI, will likely work in Sansar, just like those same avatars work in Unity3D, if they use bones. See, we already know that Sansar will accept custom skeletons. So, whether LL allows us to use morphs or not, we'll still be able to animate facial expressions with bones. Ebbe was wrong when he said there are no set standards. There are, and most platforms are now using FBX as their format. So, essentially, you could make 1 avatar that works in Unity3D, HIFI, Unreal Engine, CryEngine, and Sansar, or any other worlds that will use FBX.

- I seriously hope they do have a flexible customizable avatar in Sansar. It obvious that people seriously want it, and that it is essential to Sansar's success. That said, I'm not sure LL has the knowledge or mindframe to accomplist it.

- Yep, he said that there would be custom skeletons.

- Nope, there was nothing about things not being customizable. LL has only thought about the Sansar avatar. From what they have said, they have done almost no work on this yet. So, everything they say is just their thoughts, not something they are actually doing. IMHO, they are doing it all wrong. What I mean is, that instead of starting with the world, and then building out, they should have started with the avatar and built everything around that. I'm not saying they don't need a world to play in, I'm just saying that once you get the basics of the world going, the prime focus should be on the avatar system, because it will be so integral to how everything else works inside that world. Just look at SL. The avatar creeps into almost everything.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Normally it's done with morphs. When you have a jaw bone and two eye bones, what more bones would you need? Those are the only parts that can actually move. The rest is musles and skin, which are best to imitate with morphs.

I've animated and created facial expressions with both bones and morphs. To get good deformations with bones, you need quite a few bones to achieve it. Heck, just lips alone could be half a dozen bones, easily. Really, I have no opinion about whether morphs or bones are better to use. It really does depends on the platform you are creating for, and what the game/character's needs are. With advance bone system tho, some of them include musles deformations, and can be quite complex, while giving varied and realistic results. For movies, it's quite compelling, but for games, I think it's a bit over the top.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Normally it's done with morphs. When you have a jaw bone and two eye bones, what more bones would you need? Those are the only parts that can actually move. The rest is musles and skin, which are best to imitate with morphs.

It's perfectly possible to animate a face with bones. As you can see
.

 

Like I said tho, it's a ton of bones. Either way, bones or morphs, it's more data. The question is really what is the best for Sansar, and the creators. I don't know the answer to that.

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I would say bones. Although harder to set up initially, a good amount of bones will give you endless possibilities. The amount of morphs for the alphabet alone is at least 8 if I'm not mistaken.

The amount of data is rather small really, for both. It would work the same way animations (for the bones) or shape settings (morphs) have worked for well over a decade in SL. It's just a small amount of numbers.

Bones will give you the extra benefits of being able to rig new, user built meshes to it, which is impossible with morphs. (Unless the avatar gets the "deformer treatment", where new objects follow the skin of the base avatar)

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