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What about a CONTEST for the Sansar Avatars?


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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:



It's been a while since you made an av.. The only avatars are mesh ones now. Made by LL. And they suck. The default avs suck. You can do nothing with them. Try it, make an alt. See how bad they are. Newbs are constantly asking in various groups how to change clothing, take off the undies, do anything with the default mesh avs.. The advice is usually, ditch the default, get a system skin or buy a mesh av.

Actually, no, I have to rig other creator's mesh avatars, and clothing on a regular basis. I sell a set of avatar weights for SL avatars on my website, and after almost a year now, I still sell numerous amounts a day. It actually surprises me there are so many people making avatars and mesh clothing. I also have made numerous animal avatars lately.

Anyone can still use the normal default, and many still do. I own a sim in SL, with customers roaming around all the time. I have a pretty good feel for what people are buying and using.

Yes, the mesh avatars that LL is forcing many newbs to wear are horrendous. On a number of occasions in these very forums, I have wrote detailed critiques of EVERYTHING wrong with them. Some of the problems with them are completely ridiculous. Like, why are their eyes not rigged properly. I could go on and on about them, but I won't do that again here.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

A bigger concern I have is graphical load. LL will have to come up with a good base avatar so it won't be tempting to create alternative humanoids. Also, they need a good system that guarantees having plenty of creative tools, while putting a cap on things like total amount of wearable polygons, pixels, scripts etc.

While I agree that the future platform really needs more sophisticated resource constraints on user-generated content in general, I have to say that some of the primitive Mesh avatars sold by SL creators really don't add that much geometry to the scene. And this even for the TMP bodies, which otherwise are complete garbage in every possible way including ways that one could never have imagined and having nothing to do with Mesh.

Some other models, granted: a nightmare of pointless polys.

(Just in passing, apropos the thread subject: I'll be disappointed if there's much in SL -- or Maya, for that matter -- that translates directly into modeling motion of the new platform's avatars. On the other hand, there's very little I've learned about the new platform that I haven't found disappointing, so....)

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TMP bodies not adding much geometry to the scene? I wonder what kind of scene you are talking about if a handful of million triangles doesn't add much geometry. One of those bodies would be responsible for half the geometry on my screen... and that's on ultra settings. On low settings it would be far more than half.

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Huh. Admittedly, I've only "measured" by rezzing it (the male one) in-world and looking at the Download component of land impact (and, yeah, it takes some trickiness to defeat the script's penchant for self-immolation). I mean, they're not great, but I have plenty of Mesh builds from well-known creators with way worse numbers. So... I dunno. I'm not in a position to get in-world now to look at viewer consoles for tris counts. Am I missing something obvious, using that crude number?

(I will certainly grant that the TMP avatar appeared absurdly more complex than it needed to be, with lots of geometry detail in places that didn't seem very important -- to say nothing of the stuff that goes full alpha but never scales down, the stupid gits. So it would hardly be a surprise if they managed to screw the pooch in other ways, too.)

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The download component takes the LoD models into account. I'm pretty sure they are set to the bare minimum for at least the lowest two LoDs, so the download weight doesn't represent the highest LoD in any way. Especially for avatars and avatar attachments this highest weight is very important, since people tend to flock together, showing their highest detail to the rest of the group.

In the develop menu you can open the "show info -> show render info" console which will tell you exactly how many triangles and verts objects on your screen have (by selecting them). I don't know all the numbers by heart, but the hands alone are 1.4 million triangles. The rest is not as bad but nothing short of terrible either. The most laggy part of the body is the main body, with around 700k tris if I'm not mistaken. This could be caused by the fact that there are far more different weights in that part, although I'm not sure about it. I am sure about the fact that wearing that body halves my framerate.

EDIT Oh I didn't read you weren't able to use the console at this moment..anyway, those are the numbers...

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   Historically, LL has always shied from providing "Library" content that had any of the finer details of sexualization. Who remembers their very first Ruth? Who remembers the bra and panties that remained after removing all clothing? The provision of such details has always been left in the purview of us, the residents. Even today, the new default library mesh avatars employ relatively tame birthday suits.

   Is there any reason to believe LL will now adopt, as default content, a virtually anatomically correct avatar that any user can have right off the bat? Is there a feeling that they are more willing now, remembering the reputation SL obtained as a den of iniquity, to include such details openly, to provide default avatars with pokey bits and mimsies?

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

The download component takes the LoD models into account. I'm pretty sure they are set to the bare minimum for at least the lowest two LoDs, so the download weight doesn't represent the highest LoD in any way. Especially for avatars and avatar attachments this highest weight is very important, since people tend to flock together, showing their highest detail to the rest of the group.

In the develop menu you can open the "show info -> show render info" console which will tell you exactly how many triangles and verts objects on your screen have (by selecting them). I don't know all the numbers by heart, but the hands alone are 1.4 million triangles. The rest is not as bad but nothing short of terrible either. The most laggy part of the body is the main body, with around 700k tris if I'm not mistaken. This could be caused by the fact that there are far more different weights in that part, although I'm not sure about it. I
am
sure about the fact that wearing that body halves my framerate.

EDIT Oh I didn't read you weren't able to use the console at this moment..anyway, those are the numbers...

Holy cow! Why doesn't someone say something to them? A good retop only takes a day or 2.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

The download component takes the LoD models into account. I'm pretty sure they are set to the bare minimum for at least the lowest two LoDs, so the download weight doesn't represent the highest LoD in any way. Especially for avatars and avatar attachments this highest weight is very important, since people tend to flock together, showing their highest detail to the rest of the group.

In the develop menu you can open the "show info -> show render info" console which will tell you exactly how many triangles and verts objects on your screen have (by selecting them). I don't know all the numbers by heart, but the hands alone are 1.4 million triangles. The rest is not as bad but nothing short of terrible either. The most laggy part of the body is the main body, with around 700k tris if I'm not mistaken. This could be caused by the fact that there are far more different weights in that part, although I'm not sure about it. I
am
sure about the fact that wearing that body halves my framerate.

EDIT Oh I didn't read you weren't able to use the console at this moment..anyway, those are the numbers...

Holy cow! Why doesn't someone say something to them? A good retop only takes a day or 2.

Lol. You try talking to them. It's hopeless. If they wanted your input, you would have been part of their dev team.

Obviously we're not supposed to talk about individual products in the forums like this, but I suspect our moderators have had some of the same miserable experiences everybody else has had with TMP.

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Ivanova Shostakovich wrote:

   Historically, LL has always shied from providing "Library" content that had any of the finer details of sexualization. Who remembers their very first Ruth? Who remembers the bra and panties that remained after removing all clothing? The provision of such details has always been left in the purview of us, the residents. Even today, the new default library mesh avatars employ relatively tame birthday suits.

   Is there any reason to believe LL will now adopt, as default content, a virtually anatomically correct avatar that any user can have right off the bat? Is there a feeling that they are more willing now, remembering the reputation SL obtained as a den of iniquity, to include such details openly, to provide default avatars with pokey bits and mimsies?

Long live Ruth! The real question tho, if you are a true SL historian, is where did the Ruth name come from? lol

The classic tho, is being Ruthed, with a shoe up your a$$.

You know, I'm not sure that LL should make them anatomically correct. The community would do a better job anyways. It's not like it's difficult to take their default model, and add some bits to it.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Obviously we're not supposed to talk about individual products in the forums like this, but I suspect our moderators have had some of the same miserable experiences everybody else has had with TMP.

I have voiced my opinion about this avatar many times on these formums, never by name though, but since we're at it.... I wonder how bad the others are. Slink has 157k triangles for the entire headless avatar. Not nearly as bad, but not exactly the benchmark for low poly modeling.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

Obviously we're not supposed to talk about individual products in the forums like this, but I suspect our moderators have had some of the same miserable experiences everybody else has had with TMP.

I have voiced my opinion about this avatar many times on these formums, never by name though, but since we're at it.... I wonder how bad the others are. S___ has 157k triangles for the entire headless avatar. Not nearly as bad, but not exactly the benchmark for low poly modeling.

Now, TMP, I have no idea who they are, but S_____ is a name everyone knows. So you should probably adjust the name.

IMHO, anything over 20k, is probably way overboard. If you can't get near the same results with only 20k, then I really don't think you know what you are doing. Plus, imagine rigging and animating that mesh. I would flat out refuse to rig it.

I'm working on a new unique avatar, and the main mesh is less than 2k. Hair tho, really makes a big difference, so I'm adding it, but even the hairs I'm trying to keep below 15k. Plus, because the hairs are a separate mesh, if the user wants to be really efficient, they can do without it on laggy sims.

flyavatar.jpg

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Who is going to work for a contest, when the change that you are not paid for you work is many times bigger then the chance that you win the reward? Probably the good willing amateur who is doing it just for fun, or a beginning student who has to practise anyway...

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Who is going to work for a contest, when the change that you are not paid for you work is many times bigger then the chance that you win the reward? Probably the good willing amateur who is doing it just for fun, or a beginning student who has to practise anyway...

Well, if you don't win, you just sell it in SL, or wherever.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Now, TMP, I have no idea who they are, but S_____ is a name everyone knows. So you should probably adjust the name.

What kind of warped logic is that? Because you don't know a certain product, nobody does? Because you know a product everybody does? Because some product is better known than another we can't discuss it but we can discuss the other?

Not that everybody in SL looks at these forums (to say the least), but anyone who does, has a right to know how bad certain products are in general, or how bad they can be. Most people are oblivious to the fact they bought their own lag. I know people who prefer TMP over Slink, for whatever reason. I have seen clothing pieces that aren't any better, with meshes so dense they look solid from only a couple of meters away. Plenty of the creators of these products are well respected by the community. Plenty of these products get great reviews on the marketplace.

I can't find anything in the guidelines about not being able to talk about specific products. You aren't allowed to promote yourself though. So if I was selling mesh avatars (which I am not and have no desire to) and I would show their best features, then compare them to similar products and point out their weaknesses, it would be another story.

I am always very careful when it comes to showing off my own work, I think I have shown some twice over the years, once to ask a question, once to clearify something.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

The download component takes the LoD models into account. I'm pretty sure they are set to the bare minimum for at least the lowest two LoDs, so the download weight doesn't represent the highest LoD in any way. Especially for avatars and avatar attachments this highest weight is very important, since people tend to flock together, showing their highest detail to the rest of the group.

In the develop menu you can open the "show info -> show render info" console which will tell you exactly how many triangles and verts objects on your screen have (by selecting them). I don't know all the numbers by heart, but the hands alone are 1.4 million triangles. The rest is not as bad but nothing short of terrible either. The most laggy part of the body is the main body, with around 700k tris if I'm not mistaken. This could be caused by the fact that there are far more different weights in that part, although I'm not sure about it. I
am
sure about the fact that wearing that body halves my framerate.

I finally got time to peek in-world for a bit and put on this cursed avatar... and now I wonder if we're looking at different models or something. I'm not saying it's good, but I get very different numbers. I'm seeing 197 ktris for the main body, 220 ktris for the hands, and 75 ktris for the feet.

Not that any of these represent responsible use of computing resources. I mean, for comparison, my favourite mesh feet (which were sneaked out long before Slink was even a thing) are only 14 ktris, and there's nothing remotely optimized about that model (but they fit the standard avatar legs perfectly so they're what I wear most of the time).

I take your point about LODs affecting the Land Impact and that being unrepresentative of the impact of avatar complexity in particular; that's a good tip. One reason I'd been using it was that somebody (maybe Whirly?) mentioned that it was essentially the same number as the avatar Draw Weight -- something I never tested, having given up on Draw Weight in disgust.

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Of course they have a female and a male body, and they might have updated their models between the time you and I acquired them. Also, there seem to be different versions, from base to deluxe (which has more texture options, so more copies). Mine is called BETA, no idea if it ever came out of that stage.

 

The hands are hard to get a hold of in the edit menu, but I managed:

They are 1436k tris (this includes several copies for texturing and for handposes).

The body was not as bad as I thought, although it's still the lag-part of the set with 330k tris (copies for texturing).

The feet are 214k tris (again copies for both texturing and handposes).

 

So it's close to 2 million trianges, opposed to the 8796 for the system avatar including eyes, hair and eyelashes. (or 5342 for the headless body)

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Medhue Simoni wrote:



Long live Ruth!
The real question tho, if you are a true SL historian, is where did the Ruth name come from? lol

 

Eggy Lippmann remembers way back in 2003 that Steller Sunshine said that Ruth was the god mother of the SL alpha world

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

Now, TMP, I have no idea who they are, but S_____ is a name everyone knows. So you should probably adjust the name.

What kind of warped logic is that? Because
you
don't know a certain product, nobody does? Because
you
know a product everybody does?
Because some product is better known than another we can't discuss it but we can discuss the other?

Not that everybody in SL looks at these forums (to say the least), but anyone who does, has a right to know how bad certain products are in general, or how bad they can be. Most people are oblivious to the fact they bought their own lag. I know people who prefer TMP over Slink, for whatever reason. I have seen clothing pieces that aren't any better, with meshes so dense they look solid from only a couple of meters away. Plenty of the creators of these products are well respected by the community. Plenty of these products get great reviews on the marketplace.

I can't find anything in the guidelines about not being able to talk about specific products. You aren't allowed to promote yourself though. So if I was selling mesh avatars (which I am not and have no desire to) and I would show their best features, then compare them to similar products and point out their weaknesses, it would be another story.

I am always very careful when it comes to showing off my own work, I think I have shown some twice over the years, once to ask a question, once to clearify something.

You are right there is no specific prohibition, but when negative commentaries which named specific people/products have been removed it has fallen under this Community Guidline:

Interpersonal Disputes or Personal Negative Commentary: If you have a personal disagreement, do not post about it on the Second Life community pages.

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