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Perrie Juran

My Opinion About The Next Generation Platform

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Here's what I know from my housemate that's done some scripting for one of the Alpha testers. LSL won't be used at all...currently all the designing for stuff is usins Maya, a rather expensive program that produces a different kind of map than Blender, which most people use. There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself

[...]

With the model the way it is for the new platform, it won't be for casual users like SL is.

if so then I am not seeing what is the benefits which I cant get anywhere else

like I already got a private grid which me and my friends play on. I have the source codes for the server and the viewer which I can mod and make with

is nothing like SL anymore my grid. I have it so that when a avatar logs in then they have a whole sim to themself (their homesim), in terms of the server resources available to them

and bc each avatar can move off their home sim (Aurora style) then can go for zillions of kms in any direction, flying, walking, or on a  vehicle. And also can go onto the next sim or any sim that can travel to. Except that the avatar scripts, attachments, and vehicles are served up by their home sim and not the sim they are currenlty on

meaning also that the avatars dont go to another sim (SL style) the avatar is the sim. It never needs to be handed off to another server

basically what this means is that I can have nearly 3000 avatars in one place without any server lag at all. The only lag is draw lag (on my GTX660) bc all the textures and models needed to render. I can easy render about 450 avatars tho on my 660GTX, each with own outfits and meshes

all this for free

i also got a Unity for free to play with as well which is pretty powerful as well

so am not sure why LL would think I might pay for some world enabling toolset which I already have

unless the Sansar toolset is massively more capable

+

the only potential I can see in this scenario for the creators/builders of Sansar is: "buy a domain, use this toolset, and build some stuff/models externally, and they will come". They meaning zillion of RL people with money, happy to buy these domain Sansar Experiences

if so then they are going to have to be pretty compelling these Experiences. More compelling than the games put out currently by the game houses and indies

+

basically from what your housemate is indicating means to me that LL are building a game engine with L$ transaction capability

if so it is going to have to be pretty way more advanced than anything ever available now. Which from what I have read/hear so far isnt the case. The advanced toolsets will come, maybe one day, hopefully

that there is L$ transaction capability is the only thing Sansar has going for it, in this case seems like

the transaction capability being the inducement for developers and content creators. Is a big bet this. A huge bet actual

+

i dont mean to diss on LL but if thats all Sansar is: game engine with transactions, then yeah! really

eta; meaning also

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BobbyGeorge wrote:

I just can't see the NGP working. And I'm not a harbinger of doom, but LL's business practices never cease to baffle me.

For a start, SL has never produced a clear vision of what it's meant to be, other than 'Your world, your imagination'. Clearly, that can be interpreted in myriad ways. When it comes to enforcing 'the law', though, LL has always, weirdly, come down in favour of one side. Namely, the older users who want to manage a virtual holiday home and dress up their dollies, rather than push the platform's physics to the limit.

>> But SL still has managed to be the most successful VW ever, to this day. 

For people immersed in the game, it's worth pointing out: SL means next to nothing to the majority of the world's population. This is an extremely fringe platform; I'm sure that some whacked-out conspiracy forums get more genuine traffic. In a way, LL's decisions have killed off a lot of the potential for immersionism, to its detriment. SL or Sansar or whatever will never compete with FB; it's an entirely different dynamic. LL seem to have disregarded its ideal, target market with a series of dim decisions and futile attempts to 'be' something it can't.

>> Seems like you have a better idea for what SL should be. Want to tell me? 

'Sansar', IMO, is ultimately a forgettable name. Won't register or strike a chord with most folk.

>> That's fine since it's just a codename and not the final name. 

You won't be able to transfer most (or any) of your inventory; retaining AV names is still a moot point (I still haven't seen any clarification on the issue of names); it seems it will be a completely different beast altogether. I think SL as we know it will grind on for a while, but why on earth would a company looking to make profits invest in a dead horse? SL will probably become like Inworldz for a couple of years and then fizzle out altogether.

As for Ebbe as an individual, I've yet to encounter a more wooden, dry and evasive public face for any company. His distinct lack of enthusiasm alone makes me wonder why he's been appointed to take forward a platform that's supposedly meant to stoke personal creativity.

>> Maybe it's because I'm a Swede...
;)

Part of SL's amazing, initial dynamic WAS that clash of cultures and user intent. To have a grid that hosted educators, Gorean women on dog leads, genius scripters and redneck C&W DJs alike. It created an interesting frisson, at least. LL has now weighed in on the side of a vague 'nothingness', some undefined 'typical' user who doesn't exist, and has ignored/ deterred a lot of the dedicated obsessives and geeks who made SL what it was - and who would (probably) have clung on to become core customers in the long run.

I really can't see Sansar attracting anyone other than current SL users. Likewise, I can't see SL still running by the end of the decade.

 

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Here's what I know from my housemate that's done some scripting for one of the Alpha testers. LSL won't be used at all...currently all the designing for stuff is usins Maya, a rather expensive program that produces a different kind of map than Blender, which most people use. There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. Since the new platform won't be sharing the inventory server with SL, the stuff you have isn't going to trasfer over. 

As long as SL continues to be a viable, money-producing platform, there are no plans to close it down.

With the model the way it is for the new platform, it won't be for casual users like SL is.

There are no Alpha users now. Yearly fee for a domain? You must be confusing us with HiFi. We're not doing that. Since I don't think you know the model of this new platform I don't think you can assume it won't be for casual users over time. 

But you're right that we have no plans to close SL down.

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Bobbie Faulds wrote:

There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. 

That was exactly what I did for Highfidelity.

I have said it before, the new platform is codeveloped with HF, and there will be some changes that sets it apart, but technically very much the same. 

No, it's not codeveloped with HiFi. Two different companies. 

 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:


Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Here's what I know from my housemate that's done some scripting for one of the Alpha testers. LSL won't be used at all...currently all the designing for stuff is usins Maya, a rather expensive program that produces a different kind of map than Blender, which most people use. There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. Since the new platform won't be sharing the inventory server with SL, the stuff you have isn't going to trasfer over. 

As long as SL continues to be a viable, money-producing platform, there are no plans to close it down.

With the model the way it is for the new platform, it won't be for casual users like SL is.

There are no Alpha users now. Yearly fee for a domain? You must be confusing us with HiFi. We're not doing that. Since I don't think you know the model of this new platform I don't think you can assume it won't be for casual users over time. 

But you're right that we have no plans to close SL down.

phew!

thats good to hear. I was getting worried (:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:


Bobbie Faulds wrote:

There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. 

That was exactly what I did for Highfidelity.

I have said it before, the new platform is codeveloped with HF, and there will be some changes that sets it apart, but technically very much the same. 

No, it's not codeveloped with HiFi. Two different companies. 

 

It is only that every time I read or hear something you have said, or others have said (who think they are in the know) I get deja vús about what I see in HIghfidelity.  – Which I think is not very good (neither from a technological or marketing perspective.)

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Qie Niangao wrote:

An eagle eye across the street spotted
, of all places. This dramatically changes my perceptions of Variety -- and of Project Sansar.

As I read it, the article very much reinforces the idea that Sansar is Not For Us, but rather is to be a platform for customers to peddle their content to a mass media market hungry for 3D "experiences" such as games, news, and commercial telepresence. That's not completely disjoint from SL, true, but the emphasis seems very different.

As to hardware, we know one target is the "talented and Rifted" all of whom come pre-equipped with the latest hyper-spec'd computers. I suspect, however, that the overall target is
much
wider, with
much
lower hardware demands -- and if they're serious about a real mass market by 2016 had better include iOS and Android clients (and not Linux, as we know).

Very interesting article, thank you for posting.  

I'm fascinated by a few statements in the article.

"Linden Lab is also rethinking some of the technical infrastructure used to power virtual worlds. Each virtual space could host only between 70 to 100 people at the same time before the server powering that instance of Second Life slowed down. More involved experiences could even hit that ceiling at a maximum of 30 participants."

Yeah, if those 70 to 100 people all showed up dressed as "Ruth" there might not be a slow down.

Now I know this paper was done in 2009, Scalability for Virtual Worlds, and we have better hardware and infrastructure now, but if that alone was sufficient to alleviate lag then we'd need to ask LL why it's still such a big problem.  From the paper:

"These scalability problems arise in part because of the need to maintain consistency between all the players. In the best case, inconsistency may just lead to transient visible artifacts with no long-term consequences. However, in practice, it can easily cause much more serious problems, like objects being lost or duplicated during a financial transaction. In addition Scalability Computational Complexity

Collaborative Software Virtual Worlds (Second Life) Games (WoW) Simulators (SIMNET) High Low Low High Fig. 1. Scalability versus Complexity to degrading the realism of the virtual world, consistency violations are a major source of security problems in netVEs [3]. To maintain consistency, all net-VEs have a transaction management layer that employs a commercial database. However, the transaction layer also introduces severe scalability problems. First, as users move about the virtual environment, they send transactions to the net-VE at an extremely high rate. Even the fastest MMOs cannot handle more than about 10 frames per second [4] through their database transaction layer. Second, the transaction layer architecture of most current netVEs requires that significant parts of their application logic be executed on the server side. As a result, the scalability of an application is strongly related to the computational footprint of a single user (my bolding)."

"Collaborative software such as Wikipedia is highly scalable because user actions involve only simple computations. MMO Games with a static environment such as World of Warcraft require comparatively more computational resources, leading to a drop in scalability. Simulators, particularly military simulators such as SIMNET, are even more “real” than virtual worlds, in that users can interact with the virtual environment (e.g., destroy buildings); the result is even less scalability. Finally, user-designed virtual worlds such as Second Life allow objects to be created, modeled, and scripted by the users at run-time. This flexibility comes with high computational complexity; for example, the resulting scalability of Second Life is on the order of at most 25-30 users per server."

Which brings me back to what I said that the majority of users of SL wont be able to use the NGP because the computational foot print becomes to large.  All we need to do is look at how much trouble "MESH" is already causing people with low end machines to see that.

Gets fascinating.

 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:
>> Maybe it's because I'm a Swede...
;)
 


It has all been downhill since England lost Sven-Goran Eriksson. There is a lot to be said for Swedish cool.

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Ebbe Linden wrote:

Gavin Hird wrote:

Bobbie Faulds wrote:

There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. 

That was exactly what I did for Highfidelity.

I have said it before, the new platform is codeveloped with HF, and there will be some changes that sets it apart, but technically very much the same. 

No, it's not codeveloped with HiFi. Two different companies. 

 

It is only that every time I read or hear something you have said, or others have said (who think they are in the know) I get deja vús about what I see in HIghfidelity.  – Which I think is not very good (neither from a technological or marketing perspective.)

There are similarities as we're in a similar category (VW, VR). There will be many...just like any other interesting category. We have different approaches though. 

 

 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:


Bobbie Faulds wrote:

There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. 

That was exactly what I did for Highfidelity.

I have said it before, the new platform is codeveloped with HF, and there will be some changes that sets it apart, but technically very much the same. 

No, it's not codeveloped with HiFi. Two different companies. 

 

It is only that every time I read or hear something you have said, or others have said (who think they are in the know) I get deja vús about what I see in HIghfidelity.  – Which I think is not very good (neither from a technological or marketing perspective.)

There are similarities as we're in a similar category (VW, VR). There will be many...just like any other interesting category. We have different approaches though. 

 

 

That's not the spirit Ebbe. It needs to be 'There will be many, but they will fight over the scraps as we take the lead!' You really need to stand out, and you need to enter the mobile space and leave the PC behind (for the mass market)

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Ebbe Linden wrote:

Gavin Hird wrote:

Ebbe Linden wrote:

Gavin Hird wrote:

Bobbie Faulds wrote:

There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. 

That was exactly what I did for Highfidelity.

I have said it before, the new platform is codeveloped with HF, and there will be some changes that sets it apart, but technically very much the same. 

No, it's not codeveloped with HiFi. Two different companies. 

 

It is only that every time I read or hear something you have said, or others have said (who think they are in the know) I get deja vús about what I see in HIghfidelity.  – Which I think is not very good (neither from a technological or marketing perspective.)

There are similarities as we're in a similar category (VW, VR). There will be many...just like any other interesting category. We have different approaches though. 

 

 

That's not the spirit Ebbe. It needs to be 'There will be many, but they will fight over the scraps as we take the lead!' You really need to stand out, and you need to enter the mobile space and leave the PC behind (for the mass market)

Take the lead? :)

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I forgot one thing. The reason our inventory won't be transferring over is that  the new platform won't be sharing/accessing the inventory servers from SL. 

An FYI...in SL, it takes 3 different servers to support your avi. And they may be in 3 different cities even.. The first servier is the basic on you created your avi on. It has what's in your library that everyone has on it as well, which is why, if your inventory isn't loading properly, you can still do the character test: it's on the same server where your avi info is. The second is the server that has your inventory on it. The third is the one that the sim you're standing in is on. Those 3 may be right next to you or seperated by yards or miles or be in different cities. 

 

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I have been saying all along to the naysayers that SL isn't going anywhere as long as it is a sustainable business model. I've been in SL for 8+ years and have enjoyed every minute of it, even through the breakups and fights I've had with people..SL has been great. 

I'm disabled and not able to get out much. It's been my lifeline to being able to communicate with people from all over the world. I have friends in Germany, Denmark, England, Italy, Austrailia, New Zeeland and the US and probably other countries I don't know about since I don't know where everyone lives, just the ones that volunteer the info. 

I've got 2 virtual stores in SL and enjoying the creative outlet since my diablity limits my movement. Just look through my past posts and you'll see that I'm constantly telling people SL isn't going anywhere. I'll be here until LL pushes me out and locks the door behind me.

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Here's the problem. With so many bugs and glitches in SL what makes us believe that Sansar will actually work? The group bug has still not been fixed. Still can't see any names if there are a lot of group members. makes it hard to find group Mods. I don't know what happened but SL just crashed for everyone i know. Someone bump the servers?

Try fixing whats wrong with SL and we will start believing you about Sansar. There has been a long standing disappointment with LL, there needs to be big changes to make us have faith.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Here's the problem. With
so many bugs and glitches in SL
what makes us believe that Sansar will actually work? ....
there needs to be big changes to make us have faith.

There are bugs and glitches in ALL software.  I bet you still shop at Target - even after they got hacked, or ride the buses and subways (trains, Amtrak) with known glitches in applications, or drive a car that has bugs and glitches and needs a recall (but you are a true Ford guy and would never purchase any other car make, I bet).  And so on and so forth.

You are such a blowhard.  You offer nothing in your posts but hot air. 

Convince me otherwise, Drake1.

 

PS I have never shopped at Target.

ETA And Ebbe probably drives a Saab.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Which brings me back to what I said that the majority of users of SL wont be able to use the NGP because the computational foot print becomes to large.  All we need to do is look at how much trouble "MESH" is already causing people with low end machines to see that.


When I first heard about SL, I took an account and logged in, but is was no succes at all. All I could see were grey puppets in a grey surrounding and I crashed after a few minutes. I tried three or four times again with the same result. Some months later I bought a new computer for a reason that had nothing to do with SL. After a few weeks I decided to give this virtual work another try on the new computer though I had no idea what I could do here, I was just curious. And yes, this time it worked. And since than it has become a part of my life.

I will go to the new platform for the same reason: curiosity. I'm going to buy that occulus rift or a device like that, because I want to see for myself, I want to experience it. And when I like it, I will stay. (And when my computer is not good enough, here will come a day that I have to buy a new one any way. But so far I expect I can run it on my crrent system.)

This won't mean I abondon SL, I have some businesses to run here and I have some friends I still want to see. But when I like it, I will start do develop for this new world as well and I might set up a new business there with new content.

From business point of view it's even better when this new platform has another target audience then the current SL user base. When half of SL leaves in favor of this new world, half of my potential customer bases leaves. But when this new world can attrack new blood, it also means new customers.

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:


Bobbie Faulds wrote:

There won't be land, per se, not like the SL model anyway. You'll pay a yearly fee for a domain and host your land yourself. 

That was exactly what I did for Highfidelity.

I have said it before, the new platform is codeveloped with HF, and there will be some changes that sets it apart, but technically very much the same. 

No, it's not codeveloped with HiFi. Two different companies. 

 

It is only that every time I read or hear something you have said, or others have said (who think they are in the know) I get deja vús about what I see in HIghfidelity.  – Which I think is not very good (neither from a technological or marketing perspective.)

Precisely Gav.

I have seen enough polibiz double speak to be able to see through this  as well.

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DejaHo wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Here's the problem. With
so many bugs and glitches in SL
what makes us believe that Sansar will actually work? ....
there needs to be big changes to make us have faith.

There are bugs and glitches in ALL software.  I bet you still shop at Target - even after they got hacked, or ride the buses and subways (trains, Amtrak) with known glitches in applications, or drive a car that has bugs and glitches and needs a recall (but you are a true Ford guy and would never purchase any other car make, I bet).  And so on and so forth.

You are such a blowhard.  You offer nothing in your posts but hot air. 

Convince me otherwise, Drake1.

 

PS I have never shopped at Target.

ETA And Ebbe probably drives a Saab.

 

All software? I bet you are wrong there. When anyone starts talking in absolutes I stop listening to them.

I shop at Target, I only pay cash though so them bieng hacked has no bearing on me.

No, I don't take the subway or ride buses.

My car doesn't have a recall on it, It's a chevy btw, not that it matters. I have owned Fords, Chevys, VWs, Dodges, and Plymouths.. What is your point?

There are well know bugs in SL that have not been fixed. These  issues make people not believe Sansar will work properly. If the latest Camaro had a bug that made the speedometer stop working after 50 MPH and they refused to fix it, do you think anyone would buy Camaro?

I'm willing to bet you are a life long Wal-mart shopper.

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It takes more than 3 servers to support an avatar.

  1. Login Server
  2. Region Server
  3. Chat Servers
  4. Asset Servers
  5. Server Side Baking Servers
  6. AIS Servers? I'm not sure whether these are part of another set of servers or separate...
  7. What else...  ummmm... there are the servers running the Experience Tools key pairs system..
  8. Do the marketplace servers count? With the advent of VMM the viewer works the marketplace...
  9. Search servers, destination, world map, forum, ...

 

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The more I read about Sansar, the less I think LL will be abandoning SL anytime soon. Yes, it will go the way of the dodo eventually, but not because LL thinks they can force us to leave for a brave new world.

Here's the reason SL will stick around: because in the initial phases at least, the 2 platforms will appeal to different audiences. Sansar is going to require higher-end computers & won't be a huge social platform without a large, interacting user base. At first it might appeal to people who want to showcase their music, art or RL product in a 3D environment - sort of like a 3D VR YouTube. Over time these people might network their sims, but at first they will be isolated islands.

SL, on the other hand is all about being a social platform. There are art sims, music sims, fashion sims, RP sims, sex sims & etc. People who enjoy any of these types of entertainments create communities that encompass multiple groups and sims, and they're not limited to belonging to only one community at a time. These people won't want to move to a world where it's difficult to socialize or to create and share content, so LL is going to have to make these things easy for the average person. Ebbe has already said that they're going to have inworld tools like Maya and other outworld programs. He basically said that it doesn't make sense for LL to reinvent the wheel, if they can get Ford or General Motors to work with them. LL wants to tax content sharing in the form of  $L transactions, so they'd stupid to make content creation and sharing difficult. Initially, though, if people are happy to stay in SL, they won't boot them out, because these people might decide to go to other virtual worlds for their communities, rather than to Sansar.

Linden Lab can't force people to move to the new platform. They can only incentivize our movement. Give us cheap land and free uploads (like InWorldz does) but also let us make a profit on our work and take the money we make into RL. Let us have safe places for educators, corporations, and non-profits, but also let us have our kinky play areas.

 

On a side note, I think it's cool the Ebbe came down the the forums to respond to this discussion. Also, I've met a couple cool Swedes in SL who I wouldn't have met without this platform. ;-)

 

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“Second Life is a platform dressed as a product,” said Altberg. Project Sansar will be a platform that will allow others to build products. “The experience is the primary brand,” he said.

It sounds as if the customers that LL are hoping to attract are specifically developers who will be creating an "experience," i.e., virtual world, as a product, and Sansar will just be a tool to achieve this.  If this is true, casual users will be the consumers of individual developer's product or "experience" and not directly a customer of LL like they are in SL.   Isn't this what Blue Mars set out to do? 

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Kenbro Utu wrote:

“Second Life is a platform dressed as a product,” said Altberg. Project Sansar will be a platform that will allow others to build products. “The experience is the primary brand,” he said.

It sounds as if the customers that LL are hoping to attract are specifically developers who will be creating an "experience," i.e., virtual world, as a product, and Sansar will just be a tool to achieve this.  If this is true, casual users will be the consumers of individual developer's product or "experience" and not directly a customer of LL like they are in SL.   Isn't this what Blue Mars set out to do? 

It's worth noting that the article quoted was in Variety, which is aimed at people who are already in the business of creating "experiences" in the entertainment world.

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just about the paper

the problem with that approach is that is reliant on trusted clients. That the user wont haxxor the client to gain advantage

SL used to work that way as descibed in the paper but then they had to change it to untrusted client. bc people stripping other avatars (so server-side baking came). LSL byte code being compiled by the viewer (anyone need a grief). Pinching stuff by exploiting client-side perms. Free classified advert for like 1,000,000L anyone?? stuff like this
 
+

the idea of distributed working is the right idea, so they the authors got that part ok. Just that it needs to happen on the server side, to maintain integrity

basically if look at SL (i just do simplified for this explanation)

there is a sim server which manages the scene

there are multiple realworld clients (viewers) connected to the server

so bottleneck which the paper identifies

+

a way to do it trusted is

there is a server which manages the scene. Scene manager

there are multiple virtual clients (sims) connected to the scene manager. The (sims) are running server side. The scene manager treats them as players.clients bc thats what they are. These sims are "playing" the game as far as the scene manager is concerned. These sims are trusted (bc sandboxed serverside) therefore they can do stuff which a untrusted non-sandboxed client cant do

the user (untrusted client/viewer) connects to its own (and only its own sim). The users sim can reject or accept what it is that I the untrusted user wants or tells it to do. The scene manager never has to worry about this. It always gets good data, or none at all

to communicate with another "player" the scene manager doesnt manage this (like a current SL sim simplified does). It only has to manage the scene - the stuff not attached to avatars or being communicated between each other. The sims (players) communicate with each other peer to peer. Each sim then communicating with its own user client 

+

if LL are doing it this way (or something simliar) then the user client viewers can easy be tablets or phones even. as well as full on desktop computers

 

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

On a side note, I think it's cool the Ebbe came down the the forums to respond to this discussion. Also, I've met a couple cool Swedes in SL who I wouldn't have met without this platform. ;-)

 

He didn't really respond to anyone here, just a few snippy comebacks.  Plenty of questions were asked of him.  No answers were given.

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