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Viewer-Managed Marketplace Released: Migration Begins July 23, 2015

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It is not so much the migration, but the actual creation of the structure in world. I can repeat Madeline's issue by dragging a folder with subfolders to the VMM window and the subfolders show up as version folders. I have filed a bug with screenshots at:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VMM-95

 

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The thing is that there is no obvious reason for this subfolder bug happens.

i thought at first it was maybe happening to folders with a certain ammount of items inside, but it doesnt seem to be that.

Good things you made a Jira Tamarsk, at first i didnt saw it as a bug, this is why i asked the reason for why this happens to some of my folders, but well, if it's a bug, then LL has to fix this right away. We are starting a new system, it should work correctly and not starts with bugs yet.

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As many of you noticed, we did shorten the time line to get Merchants migrated to VMM. This is due primarily to the need to get Merchants off of Xstreet, as it was down for a weekend in early July, forcing us to accerate our dates.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

but for your problem with separated mesh and sculpty mp store, it was like this before. One MP store by avatar. So the new system wont change this. But why not create an alt with a name quite similar to yours and open another mp store for one category items under the same name but with its specificity in it ?


It's long time ago when I decided to stick with a single merchant avatar. It was in the days that Grant en Brodsky were programming the new marketplace after LL bought Xstreet. In those days they promised that the possibility to have several marketplace store per avatar would be a future feature.

But it didn't go that way, these programmers left Linden Lab, and nobody ever picked up the promise that was made.

Now I feel it's too late to come back to my decision, for several reasons

- I have all my listings now on this avatar. I cannot migrate my listings to a new avatar, so I would have to create them again (in all 6 languages).

- I have many returning customers who know me with this avatar.

- Transaction history is more easy to manage for one avatar then for two.

 

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Seems to me that manually migrating is more work. I would wait for the auto migration. Chances are you won't have to do any work at all.

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For a moment I was in doubt, when I found out this strange behaviour with a new listing, where the subfolder is acting like a version folder. Should I risk failed deliveries from all items in subfolders, or should I still work hard the next three days and create manual listings for at least my best selling products? Or should I just let the disaster happen? 

But now you let us know that automigration works fine, also with the subfolders, I have more trust that it will work fine for me as well. I rather make some new products, then do the work of manual migration.

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Oz Linden wrote:


seanabrady wrote:

The assumption then is that VMM RC will be promoted to the defacto release prior to the 23rd?

Probably not because we've just done a promotion and we don't feel we need to push a new update on everyone immediately just to get it to Merchants, but it's available now and we don't know of any problems with it.

It is first in line for the next promotion though assuming that nothing really bad happens.

 

Ummm, what?

We get random updates on random days on a regular basis. Just recently I had 2 veiwer updates in 2-3 days. How many merchants do you expect to download release candidates? If the VMM is live, then it's ridiculous that it's not in the official viewer. WTF, it should have been in there for a while, way before you ever even think of pushing the system on us. I have yet to even look at this crap, cause I'm waiting for it to be OFFICIAL. Just because we are merchants, doesn't mean you can ignore us and treat us differently. We don't work for you. We are your customers. Give us the same respect you give everyone else. We aren't part of your dev team. Now, if you want to cut me a check, then you can easily ask me to play with RCs, and I will gladly comply.

All that said, I EXPECT that when all of this will go live, LL will do the PROPER video tutorials and documentation. Again, we are your customers, not your devs.

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Again I have to say WTF!

 

Oz, do you realize that the COMMERCE section of your blog is not pushed to LL's Feature News? So, if a merchant doesn't specifically check the COMMERCE section, then we won't know what is going on. Are we(the merchants) so low on your scale that things like VMM aren't important enough to be in the FEATURED NEWS?

 

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Ah, the answer we got from Brooke Linden in the Jira about the fact some folders ended splited in several subfolder while you drag them to the VMM (https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VMM-95?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=473940) is at the very least..... interesting and tasty. :smileyvery-happy:

So it was an "expected behavior".... so this lead me to think that bugs are then expected behavior for any new LL improvement, and then suddendly it explain so well, all the numerous bugs we had to go thru all along the years lol.

an "expected behavior" as she says, would make this happen EACH TIME a folder is dragged to the VMM without creating a top level folder. But the problem is that it doesn't happen EACH time. 80 % of the time, it doesnt happen. The folder is dragged to the VMM window and all is fine. A top level folder is automatically created and the folder with the items becomes the subfolder keeping its integrity.

Yet for 20 % of my folders the "expected behavior " happened. Without obvious reason. 

So maybe should i report the 80 % of the folders safe from this "expected behavior" as a bug ? :smileyvery-happy:

And of course she closed the Jira and .... the ability to discuss her point of view at the same time.

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Tamarsk wrote:

 

 

Just saw the comment of Brooke on this bug in the jira:

"This was a deliberate decision to better support moving folder hierarchies with several versions in them to VMM. The options were:

  • See subfolders as version folders
  • See subfolders as child elements of the parent folder

The way to avoid this is to create a top level folder in Marketplace listings first, then drag your folder with subfolders into that folder. This is primarily a manual migration scenario. Automated migration does not have this problem.

Once the migration is complete, if this is a common scenario, we will revisit this feature request. Closing now as expected behavior."

REALLY? You have a marktetplace where merchants can work with subfolders since the come of direct delivery. And all these merchants who choose for this option, you ignore in favor of merchants who want version folders as a new feature??

This makes VVM a step backwards for all those merchants who work with folders, when listing new items. Now with DD we just have to drag folder to merchant outbox and push button. Done. VVM gives us more work,  you have to move your subfolders manually, or you have to create a top level folder first.

I really don't understand  this decision.

 

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Medhue, it took you this long to realise that the answer to that is "YES"?

Well, they don't have to be so obvious about it.:smileysad:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Ah, the answer we got from Brooke Linden in the Jira about the fact some folders ended splited in several subfolder while you drag them to the VMM (
is at the very least..... interesting and tasty. :smileyvery-happy:

So it was an "expected behavior".... so this lead me to think that bugs are then expected behavior for any new LL improvement, and then suddendly it explain so well, all the numerous bugs we had to go thru all along the years lol.

an "expected behavior" as she says, would make this happen EACH TIME a folder is dragged to the VMM without creating a top level folder. But the problem is that it doesn't happen EACH time. 80 % of the time, it doesnt happen. The folder is dragged to the VMM window and all is fine. A top level folder is automatically created and the folder with the items becomes the subfolder keeping its integrity.

Yet for 20 % of my folders the "expected behavior " happened. Without obvious reason. 

So maybe should i report the 80 % of the folders safe from this "expected behavior" as a bug ? :smileyvery-happy:

And of course she closed the Jira and .... the ability to discuss her point of view at the same time.

I think SL can properly be described as genious, with underlying incompetence. What I mean by this is, that many parts of the system were ingeniously thought up, it's just the execution that always sucks. This is not a slight against the devs, but how those devs are managed. LL's lackidaisy attitude on fixing bugs has been the main problem from the beginning.

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Oz, you should also tell the person who controlls the Youtube page to create a playlist of videos concerning the VMM. I personally don't turn on linked annotations on Youtube videos, which is currently the only way to find all the other videos on Youtube related to VMM.

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Ok it looks like Brooke have read my comment here about the Jira and ask me more details but i cant answer in the jira because comments are still closed. 

I have edited my comment there in order to give details but for being sure she has them, im going to say here too, and i m going to try to be the clearest possible, as english is not my native language.

So.

while i was manually migrating my mp store yesterday, i was moving my folders to the VMM window. 

so far so good.

For 80 % of them, it works correctly.

Each folder once in the VMM created its parent folder and became a subfolder (version folder) with all the items inside, thus keeping its integrity.

For 20% of them, it didnt behave like that.

I did move the the folders the same way, it created the parent folder the same way but surprise, inside the parent folder my original folder was split in 2 or 3 subfolders. My items were spreaded into those subfolders. Sometimes i had a notecard only in one of the subfolders. but most of the time, my items were spreaded randomly between the 3 folders. 

At first i thought i made something wrong, so i deleted and moved again. It did the same. 

So i created a new folder in the VMM and moved the folder inside it, it behave correctly. I renamed the new folder and went on on the migration.

This happened again, several time. At the end i did just manually moved all the items into the same subfolder and deleted the ones left empty.

I suspected that maybe this was happening to a folder with more items than the other ones, but no. The folders were not bigger than the other ones. and it looks like it was happening randomly. Sometimes moving again the folder was working fine. Sometimes not.

So well, what is the expected behavior ? the 80 % who worked fine, or the 20 % tricky ones. 

I tried to find obvious reasons for the 20 % behavior but i could not find any.

This is why i asked here in my first post.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

I did move the the folders the same way, it created the parent folder the same way but surprise, inside the parent folder my original folder was split in 2 or 3 subfolders. My items were spreaded into those subfolders. Sometimes i had a notecard only in one of the subfolders. but most of the time, my items were spreaded randomly between the 3 folders. 

I saw something simular happen to day while creating a new listing. I don't keep my landmark, notecard and copyright notice in every product folder, but I keep them in a single separate folder.

I did the next steps:

- I dragged my product folder to the VMM window -> Product folder and listing folder were correctly created, subfolders were seen as version folders.

- I replaced my subfolders to the listing folder -> They did no longer show as version folders but as subfolders.

- I did not drag, but copy my landmark, notecard and copyright notice in the listing folder. -> There were 3 version folders created, one for each item. 

(At this point I assumed that I accidently had copied these 3 items to the product folder in stead of the listing folder, and that that was the reason they showed up as folders in stead of items. A mouse click is easily misplaced, but I'm not sure this was the case.)

 

 

 

 

 

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They will automatically migrate with the listed items and will stay unlisted. Your Marketplace listings in the VMM viewer will show them as not bold. When you list them they become bold.

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maybe it's my old age speaking but i feel same way however no matter how much we tell them it's our livelyhood they don't care. Not sure you have ever been to california but the way of life there is (who cares who this hurts) as long as i come out on top so my point is no matter how much you tell them it's wasted breath they will never care they get paycheck and go home.

 

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CommerceTeam Linden wrote:

As many of you noticed, we did shorten the time line to get Merchants migrated to VMM. This is due primarily to the need to get Merchants off of Xstreet, as it was down for a weekend in early July, forcing us to accerate our dates.

CTL:

Thank you for the explanation as to the rushed migration date. It certainly does make sense to minimize use of a system that is well known to be buggy, unstable and mostly unrepairable. However ...

The process chain from XStreet technology through the Marketplace, Direct Delivery, End-Customers and the Merchants consists of much more than a single link. While it is accepted that VMM had to be pushed ahead for fear of the whole house of cards tumbling catastrophically, the failure to prepare all the other inter-related links has essentially created the same condition.

We humans that run the Avatars that are the Merchants are prone to hesitation, trepidation, and refutation .. especially when our money is messed with against our will.

I thought this "cart before (or absent) the horse" behavior had ended a few months ago. I am sad to see it has not.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


CommerceTeam Linden wrote:

As many of you noticed, we did shorten the time line to get Merchants migrated to VMM. This is due primarily to the need to get Merchants off of Xstreet, as it was down for a weekend in early July, forcing us to accerate our dates.

CTL:

Thank you for the explanation as to the rushed migration date. It certainly does make sense to minimize use of a system that is well known to be buggy, unstable and mostly unrepairable. However ...

The process chain from XStreet technology through the Marketplace, Direct Delivery, End-Customers and the Merchants consists of much more than a single link. While it is accepted that VMM had to be pushed ahead for fear of the whole house of cards tumbling catastrophically, the failure to prepare all the other inter-related links has essentially created the same condition.

We humans that run the Avatars that are the Merchants are prone to hesitation, trepidation, and refutation .. especially when our money is messed with against our will.

I thought this "cart before (or absent) the horse" behavior had ended a few months ago. I am sad to see it has not.

plus ca change, plus c'est la même chose...

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Whow.. a Mail:  "Cancelled Store upgrade... There was an error with "upgrading" your shop. We will investigate..your store is still functional in the old format till we find a solution..." 

Only that 50 Items are missing now, guess i know what i do tonite. check what you screwed up... Great work LL... I dont even want to be "upgraded"...

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Jaylin Whitewood wrote:

Whow.. a Mail:  "Cancelled Store upgrade... There was an error with "upgrading" your shop. We will investigate..
your store is still functional in the old format till we find a solution
..." 

Only that 50 Items are missing now, guess i know what i do tonite. check what you screwed up... Great work LL... I dont even want to be "upgraded"...

It may be informative to remember that "still functional" is a term used by people that buy brand-new pants with rips and torn knees, faded nearly worn-through sections ... and even pay EXTRA for this "distressed" look.

Just wanted to provide a bit of perspective. *grin*

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