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When will we expect to see the first screen shots of sansar? I've heard there's a replica of the Golden Gate Bridge?

 

Also I'd love to see something like an interactive changing window, so clothing can be tried on in real time, much like the avatar customisation GUIs in other softwares. For example, one could scroll through tops, trousers, shoes etc. Mechants could follow a naming convention and supply small thumbnail images to populate the interface.

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This is going to be a long post with lots of unrelated questions and thoughts. Sorry about that. There are just sooo many things we want and need to know.


Cube Republic wrote:

Also I'd love to see something like an interactive changing window, so clothing can be tried on in real time, much like the avatar customisationGUIs in othersoftwares.

That's a great idea. Something like that private window a certain 3D chatroom service offers perhaps, only with more options.

 




Drongle McMahon wrote:

The second is so important that I want to repeat it. Lack of clear documentation, and the variable quality of what is available, especially concerning efficiency of resource consumption, has been a significant disadvantage to SL.

I'd like to concretize this a little bit. There are many content creators in SL who really want to and try hard to use the available resources as efficiently as possible, NEKKA once called us eco conscious builders and that's quite a good simile. The problem is, we don't really know how to do it.

For objects we have the land impact system. That helps a little but it's not nearly enough. For a start land impact is based on the assumption that the servers are the bottleneck and that is hardly ever the case anymore. Apart from some extremely heavy sims - and during griefer attacks and technical problems - it's always the client that slows things down. This is not just a problem for regular computers. Any computer will have problems with some of the heaviest scenes in SL. (I once took a friend to the store of a well known creator famous for his brilliant use of heavy, baked textures. She was using SL Go at that time and even that had to give up, leaving the scene only half rendered.) There is no way to calculate client side cpu load of objects although it's fairly easy to see that some are much heavier there than others. There is a way to calculate render weight but its importance has been toned down and the formula is clearly wrong. Alpha masking, normal maps and specular maps don't add anything to the calculated render weight at all yet they contribute significantly to the actual gpu load. Fitted mesh has a symbolic 1.2 factor in the render weight calculation. I'm not sure what it should be but certainly not lower than 10 and quite possibly as high as 100.

For avatars there is hardly any information at all even though we know they can add far more render load than the scenario.

Scripts - some of the early scripters did a marvelous job, testing, experimenting and sometimes even managing to get some scraps of information from friendly Lindens and they documented it all in the wiki. So we know a little bit but not nearly enough. Besides, there is no encouragement to write efficient scripts. One of the most popular vehicle script systems is so (unnecessarily) heavy it's hardly possible to cross a sim border with it and all that happens when it causes poor travellers problems is that Linden Lab gets the blame for not fixing the sim crossing issues.

 



There are some rumors about amazing draw distance in Sansar. That's good to hear but there are two ways of achieving that. You can either just increase the actual draw distance at the cost of greatly increased render weight, or you can feed the clients with prerendered background scenes. Which solution is LL going for?

 



A while ago LL introduced a forced reset to default/local windlight at restart. I actually think that was a good idea in itself, although I'm not sure the way it was introduced was the best one. But it also brought forth how outdated the default windlight settings are. The morning and afternoon settings are just way too sharp for modern virtual reality and the noon setting is rather bland.

There are other issues with windlight too of course. The fixed water level can a seriously limiting factor and I have a sneaking suspicion the whole system is quite a lot heavier to render than it needs to be.

So, how are the atmospheric effects going to be in Sansar? I know part of the answer: it will be flexible enough the landowners can make their own. But how will the tools and options be? And will you provide good default settings or will everybody have to make them from scratch?

 



Lights and shadows: It seems to me there have been some significant improvements in shadows recently but there are still some problems such as distant objects casting sharp shadows and light passing through the edges of walls. And of course, local lights still shine bright and clear right through any obstacle.

Can we hope for further improvements there?

 



This may seem like a silly question but how about sprites? Yes, I know this is stone age technology but fact is, even the few very limited options we have for using sprites in SL can be amazingly effective, adding lots of life and details with far lower load than the same details would have as mesh based objects.

Are you planning to include any sprite functions in Sansar? And if the answer is no, is it because it isn't "modern" and "sexy" enough or is it because implementing them would cost more than it's worth?

 



One of the possible functions for Sansar that was mentioned fairly early int he process was as a virtual showroom for professional designers. There used to be quite a lot of that in Second Life but a change in the TOS put a stop to it. There was jsut no way a professional RL designer or architect brueau could agree to give LL any IP rights to their works, even though they trusted LL never to abuse that right.

Are you planning to change the TOS so this will be possible again?

 



Are you planing to offer support for inworld stores or will you try to channel all trade through the new Marketplace?

 



And finally: I know the official answer is that Sansar is to be an open environment for everybody and everything but I'd like to ask all Lindens who read this: What is your vision? What do you think Sansar will be mainly used for and how would you describe the typical Sansar user?

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Thanks, I'm glad I asked!


Ebbe Linden wrote:


BlueTrianon wrote:

I'm so sorry, but I just would like to confirm that it is substances as in Allegorithmic's Substances that will be supported?  If so, this is very exciting news.

We intend to support the idea of substances in regards to rendering physics and audio in some way. We have not ruled out supporting that product and are fans but may solve it some other way. 

 

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brasil asks.png

At the moment the following questions are the most important to us BRAZIL:

1 - Now with lindens resale canceled by third parties, the Brazilian generally only have option of buying illegally by bank transfer or no longer use SL. Many are desperate about it. You know this and plan to give some other extra option?

* In Brazil up to have a bank account you have to have a job and prove your monthly gain, it's very difficult one person to have an international credit card to use Paypal, Lindex or otherwise. Have no job here does not mean having no money, it is that in Brazil there are many who work informally. There are many who buy weekly over 10000L.

2 - Formerly there were islands separated by language or region to receive new residents at the time of their first login, it helped a lot to increase the amount of residents in SL from Brazil and other countries such as Spain. You think of doing something similar in Sansar or in Second Life itself again?

Thank You so much!

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ChinRey wrote:

Now, that is perhaps the most important question still unanswered: who is Sansar for? Is it for the high end gaming computer crowd or is it supposed to be the platform for the "
10s and 100s of millions of people.
"?

 

I heard in SL12B Auditorium it will not be for all. Not for Linux users anyway, regardless of how powerful their computer is. Regardless of how creative are or how much they contribute. No linux version official Sansar viewer... no third party viewers... worst of all: no hypergriding! I guess my questions to Lindens are:

 

  1. Will it be really absolute -no way- for a Linux user to enter Sansar?? Not even a work around? (Someone mentioned a program called WINE, but I'm not sure if that could be a solution). If Sansar is going to be -that- ambitious (100s of millions) then you're realising you're excluding millions of people.
  2. Why can't you let volunteer or short-term paid linux devs help you in creating a linux version official Sansar viewer (or official based) from early on? Most of TPV devs are trusted people I believe. Isn't it possible for a client to be closed source and still being able to run on an open source OS? (Sorry if my questions seems naive or something, I'm not a programmer). A Sansar Linux Viewer could be at the same status as the SL Linux Viewer. No maintenance = no LL resources spent! Right?
  3. Why not hypegriding? This is actually a question I heard by a lot of people, not just linux users. Don't you, people at LL, think the hypergriding ability is essential in helping Sansar to be populated?

Thank you in advance. I've read really great questions from people before me and some informative answers already.

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Cube Republic wrote:

Also I'd love to see something like an interactive changing window, so clothing can be tried on in real time, much like the avatar customisation GUIs in other softwares. For example, one could scroll through tops, trousers, shoes etc. Mechants could follow a naming convention and supply small thumbnail images to populate the interface.

i vote for this

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I thought it would be useful for all those who couldn't be bothered to read the unreliable transcript ("so many people who don’t necessarily release who I am") or the meandering and content-minimal posts to this thread by summarising it:

JAM TOMORROW!

Alec - to consume my preserves today, but it sounds like supplies are likely to run out very soon.

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I'm not sure if this Q&A is still open or if it's going to be a community discussion from now on but Curious' post reminded me of one more important - perhaps even vital - question.

I suppose security is an important part of the answer to why we don't have hypergrid access and why Sansar won't have TPV but how about the biggest gap in SL's security system, the cache files?

Today the cache files are unencrypted and unprotected and that is probably one of the two main reasons why IP theft  and copybots are such big problems in SL. Is Linden Lab going to take measures to protect the cache files from unauthorized use in Sansar? And if so, will it be possible to implement such protection to SL too?

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ChinRey wrote:

I suppose security is an important part of the answer to why we don't have hypergrid access

I was talking about hypergrid between Sansar and SL exclusively.

What kind of security issues might be between 2 platforms of the very same company?

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CuriousAboutSL wrote:

I was talking about hypergrid between Sansar and SL exclusively.

What kind of security issues might be between 2 platforms of the very same company?

Oh, I thought you meant hooking SL up to the existing OS based metaverse/hypergrid. Sorry.

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Danger Linden wrote:

We are curious about what specifically residents like about the Mainland? Provided infrastructure? Large contiguous areas? A sense of community? Neighbors with common interests? Affordability? The catchy name?

 

Mainland has no rules about the avatars look and you can't be kicked out because of your look from the public places, like the roads, common places build by LL and their moles. On private estates it can happen, that some guy kicks you from their estate, just because you have too long ears
;)
I like the idea being able to explore, drive whatever. How often the land rules tell you (on private estates) that everone is welcome, but if you explore there, the landlord or their manager just ask you to go (if they are nice) or just ban you.

Otherwise I prefer  renting a small plot from LL, so many people have to move because the landlord leaves SL, sometimes without any warning and you need to ask LL to reopen the island to get stuff back.

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- Will sansar be in the same price range as high fidelity ?

And at my side of the planet that would be around 25$ / month for a server. without extra crazy setup costs linden lab is asking now for a server that you still share.

- I have read that people in sansar get free land, is it much bigger then the silly useless 512sqm in secondlife ?

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Will Sansar be available for Linux? Most people I know have Linux systems, I hope you do not plan to exclude all of us from Sansar. Notice that the BRICS countries, among them Brazil, Russia and China currently push their own Linux based operating systems and have plans to ban Windows from their countries completely for security reasons (backdoors for US government). HiFi has a Linux version, so I really hope Sansar will have one as well from the beginning.

Also, since the current official SL viewer for Linux is not working since the tools update, it might be good to not offer it for download on the homepage and maybe provide Kokua Viewer instead, which even has a working 64 bit version.

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I hope LL are still answering some questions on here as i just thought of one. Sorry if a similar question has already been asked. 

We are seeing a surge of small startups experimenting with new ways of VR interaction off the back of the Oculus which has been around for about 2 years. Second Life has been around for 12 years but we didnt see any startups experimenting with pushing the VR experience in Virtual Worlds. 

Will Sansar be constructed with a view to allow startups the opertunity to innovate build upon and expand how we use Sansar and other virtual worlds? and if so, how will Sansar make it easier for adding new advances in VR tech?

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Hi and thanks for this thread, nice idea.

 

What will the maximum possible length of sound clips be in Sansar?

Could you consider, in accordance to the generally cheaper land stuff, to have at least 1 free move of a region? That might benefit for example the roleplaying community, people could develop their sim in peace and then move it next or close to (an) other region(s) of the same genre (one that is supportive of the bigger picture of things, of course **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**s://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Smiley Wink" title="Smiley Wink" />)?

And, please, don´t exclude people who need payment methods like paysafe cards or similar? Ok, this one wasn´t a legit question, but a plea, but I had to, sorry.)

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Will Experience Tools be expanded to allow content creators to create experiences for object attachments, independent of sims? 

There was some talk of this in the earlly days when Experience Tools was mooted. Currently sim owners have to explicitly give permission to the specific Experience before allowing it on the sim, which pretty much limits an attachment's ability to use Experience Tools.

Griefing can be limited in that Experience Tools already allows resciding of permissions, and avies should be able to trust the creator (especially if the object is bought at a trusted store!) before giving permissions anyway.

Remember that content creators are not just sim owners, but also include makers of various inworld objects and attachments.

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Land tier has made up most of Linden Lab's revenue. You've said that your plan is to reduce land tier to make it easier for customers to buy land, and to shift to revenue from sales tax for content.

But that can only go so far as content creators and their customers will be discouraged if the tax is too high -- presumably the "sales tax" is only a consumer tax and not a creator tax as creators are once again the sole privileged class of SL.

So I wonder if you have your eye on taxing land owners or land sales or rentals -- that is, while you will reduce tier overall and may encourage land ownership, what you may do is tax the middle-men rental agents who then re-rent the land to others. You've never mentioned that, but it seems the reality for where the revenue will come from -- as you can't go too far in taxing content sales without discouraging either creators, who will have no one buying their stuff, or consumers, who will feel it's not worth it.

The large land owning baron class (and that's not me -- I mean those who own 50-100 or more private island sims and homesteads) -- is likely to see some taxation on their sales (which are really rentals). And/or consumers may in addition also face a tax as on any in-world transaction.

What is the plan to transition from the current scheme of land barons with large islands to Sansara? Is there a ratio for sell-backs or exchanges or nothing at all?

This may seem like a non-issue at first but in fact the old SL is eventually going to be drained off for the new, and that means those land barons will have no customers. They will have no incentive to buy more land from LL if they lose everything they have now AND face a tax for their re-rental of new purchases, even at lesser costs.

Also, will there be group-owned land in Sansara?

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I don't see that happening -- people joining up their sims -- because this behavior was rare in Second Life as it is now, i.e. Caledon and Wintersfell or whatever it was called joined, but few others did.

Why? Because every owner wants to run things themselves. If it were easy for strangers to get along and do things together based on shared ideals or interests, why the Mainland would be a better place, but it isn't.

Leaving aside the issue of blight from abandoned land and griefers and tiny ad parcels, there are things like Bay City in which while in theory open to the public -- a select public at those prices -- a few who have the time and energy to take over do, and then enforce their rules against others, say, on what kind of store they'd like to open or build they want to put out.

While it's always possible in theory that if land tier is less more people will buy land and link them to other people, but as I've suggested elsewhere in this thread, the one place where the Lindens might light to tax is on re-renting or re-selling of their land, i.e. taxing the land owner or baron with multiple sims. That seems like a natural place to go to squeeze as currently Linden gets nothing out of the land barons except tier which is bulk-discounted -- they don't get a piece of the internal economy which is what they want to do in order to pick up the revenue they will get from reducing server tier cost.

And this may come in the form of a direct tax to land owners if they re-rent or a tax on all sales transactions of any type, including land, or both.

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No, not provided infrastructure because there isn't anything really consistent except trees. Currently even the Concierge provides no help at all -- it is forbidden to -- for griefing, which is really all that the mainland owner needs.

It is not about roads, either as most people do not drive or ride horses or sale across sims, this is a niche use.

What people like about Mainland is:

o Freedom -- you are not at the mercy of one land baron's rules, but a public space which a known company with people with IDs and credibility a board and fiscal responsibility runs it. Rules actually make for freedom. I know that if I rent from LL, they will not close tomorrow, their customer service will be open on weekends, etc.

o Linden-made content -- it is the best in many cases -- while Linden trees may have been left behind by creators, in fact they hold up the best when you have to decorate a lot of land and are not high prim or problematic in viewing.

o Linden protected land. Keeping the view free -- Linden ocean, Linden roads, Linden ponds, Linden areas with grass or trees -- these are what give the Mainland the good look it has and value -- the most expensive Mainland is that next to "Linden protection land." While a land baron can make some little park, again, you're at the mercy of what that land baron's taste is like -- the typical homestead is chopped up into  8 little flat sand boards with 8 salt boxes plastered on them. And you're offering us only to have larger versions of this AND string them together? Really? Didn't some of you take art classes in college, not just computer science?

o Serendipity --  the most important factor. Happenstance. Running into old friends or making new. Having a customer just fly by, like your store and come in. Having a stranger admire your land and content as they explore. Exploring is a big part of SL for more people than vehicle driving is. And exploring is harder to do when you just have to hop from one island to the next, hoping that the owner won't bounce you or have orbs to send you home.

o Flexibility -- you can buy or rent just a 512 parcel and come and go by abandoning land or renting it and refunding it or leaving it. Land barons usually don't have 512 parcels -- some do, but it's not worth it to them as they have to make money from their islands and usually chop them up differently. They also lock you into costs by having to "buy" your first month then pay a month in advance in many cases with no refund.

o The Mainland isn't Bay City although you would think it is from reading the forums. It's not Boardman or Nautlius either. It's the vast inner spaces of all those sims with funny names that Jack Linden made like "Quietly Tuesday" you never visit where people have their little free lives, never having to deal with prim-a-donnas in most cases because despite the bad advertising and massive abandonment, a lot of sims do work -- people get along with their neighbors.

 

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I want to ask you about the whole Experience thing.

You have repeatedly talked about people who "create experiences" for others and I realize that doesn't mean Experiences as in the new scripted thing.

But I wonder how LL formulated the idea that Experiences would even be a thing.

The reality is, most residents even high-end content creators have not made experiences or Experiences as in games on a sim, or an explored story on a sim.

When the Lindens have made experiences like the Corn Field (very frustrating game no one ever plays more than once or twice) or the carnival/spooky house which is great but also probably doesn't get many visitors or repeat visitors, they don't bring in the masses.

There are people who over the years have made things like Numbakulla which closed in 2011. There isn't really a demand for these kinds of things.

Do you have a sense of how many people really want to play a game in SL or go to an Experience? Do your own usage statistics for your own staff-created venues show there is an interest?

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bc their landlord is LL and not another resident

Bingo. This is the best thing about the Mainland for many, and I say that as somehow who is a Mainland rentals agent and therefore not what you want.

But the reality is that the thought of having to deal with land barons even of the better kind is not pleasant because they have to put in certain practices -- like grabbing a month's rent in advance and not refunding -- to make a living or have other inherent problems like rules that make no sense.

LL is predictable, dependable and reliable, and people value that. Especially if they have very small budgets and can't afford to buy an island and want a small parcel they can control.

LL will likely find itself in the rentals business again even if they are ideologically opposed to Mainland, they will make Linden Homes or something that will turn into the Mainland in time in spite of their aversion to it. They will have to run it "hot" i.e. always on because it will have so many people on it.

 

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When I pointed this out to Ebbe Linden when I met him last year, that the Moles new roads and contents (new compared to 2004 anyway) are what make many sims really great, and their content is sought after, and land next to Linden roads and other content is more valuable, it didn't seem to register.

I pointed out that after all, he did have this elaborate content-creation crew called the LL DPW with traditions and memes and all the rest, if that wasn't important, why have it?

His answer was quite bland and practical: because the company needs to have content to test the software. That is, they need to make their own content within the system that they control so they can test how it functions as they upgrade the software.

Of course, for that you could just put a bunch of boxes on a flat sim, but they need varied content.

So the Mainland and the moles are just a load test for the Lindens, not of inherent value. They don't want to be in the government/governance business.

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Hello Ebbe and everyone 

I am late to this thread and i havent read the whole of it in details, so forgive me if this has been asked already, but i havent seen anything about that so here it is.

Recently we have a friend whose account has been deleted and all hints drive us to think she passed away. One other friend contacted LL but due to privacy policy he could know nothing.

So my question is for both SL and Sansar, is it possible to have a service in the same style than what google, FB or other plateforms have, like that one : http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.de/2013/04/plan-your-digital-afterlife-with.html ?

Something we could decide who can recieve our datas after a long time of absence (we determinate before) and so can cleanly delete our account and tell all the virtual friends about that ?

It's pretty tricky to give such task to rl persons as sometimes they dont even know how to surf on the web, there can also be a language problem, or they just dont know our sl existence, or just will think our virtual friends dont count. And we aren't supposed to share our passwords (on top if you also take in consideration that for more security we must change them from time to time).

Virtual relationship are something important in our lives and its just hard to be left like that without any infos about our beloved friends.

So idk about the form this service should have, but can you, please, think a bit about this and give us a service in the same style than what google and other plateforms provide to their users. ?

 

Im sorry for the sad side of my question, but its part of life anyway. And i apologize in advance for my english, that's not my native language.

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These are all interesting points.

One of the factors for such a more sophisticated group with higher-end skills and talents in a company is that they will need to make money, they will need salaries for themselves and operating capital.

There is actually not a lot of that in SL. There are a few land barons of course that run as companies with sophisticated programmers and content creators.

But the overwhelming majority of sim rentals are by amateurs who have figured out how to make a buck -- but not much of a buck, and who usually lose money, or essentially subsidize their tenants.

That is, in order to justify buying and having a sim or even 10 for themselves, they offset their costs in re-renting and content sales, but they don't pay themselves, or maybe even brake even. I think a lot of SL has dependent on the ability of hundreds of such people -- mainly women -- holding  up the world. These people spend endless hours in teaching and helping because that's their socializing and they like it -- they get to have a little power over people, the illusion they are in business or even some actual cash, and the fun of playing store. Most people want one of three things online: playing war, playing house, or playing store.

These more sophisticated "Experience Curators" or whatever you want to call them -- the Desmond Shangs of the virtual world who create Calendon and in turn many pro-sumers who are high-end content creators and event organizers base don themes -- these people can't lose money. And they can't do CS for free. They will hire people to do CS.

Yet the margins in virtuality are very slim or even non-existent in rentals -- content creation is where the money is, and the Lindens would like that to be their revenue base, too, with taxation.

A world in which a tiny class of high-end content creators and experience-managers put on a Renaissance Faire for everyone else who visits them on one sim or sims strung together by one company isn't a world and is hard to keep compelling.

The genius of Second Life as Philip Rosedale conceived of it was that if people weren't programmers, and weren't content-creators, and couldn't script or make things, they had something else they could do besides prostitution -- they could buy and sell or rent land. This made a huge part of the economy and made that economy more diversified and able to sustain more people.

The Lindens will introduce a massive societal change by making tier cheaper, but making it so that only content-creators are motivated to buy a lot of land if there is no inworld amateur creation tools and no inworld business for everybody else. Add to that what I suspect also will happen -- taxation on land barons re-selling/re-renting Linden Land as the "sales tax" they have to pay -- and it will be hard to sustain this class which means diversity of the economy.

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Prokofy Neva wrote (in reply to Drongle):

These are all interesting points.

One of the factors for such a more sophisticated group with higher-end skills and talents in a company is that they will need to make money, they will need salaries for themselves and operating capital.


I think we need to take that particular subthread again right from the top. It started with:


Ebbe Linden wrote
All markets are under-represented. Someone is going to build a platform for 10s and 100s of millions of people.


I think Ebbe Linden is right there. The world may not be quite ready for such a mass market virtual world yet but it's not that far into the future.

At first I couldn't understand why he seemed so happy about the prospect of getting such a formidable competitor but then I got the idea that he might have meant that Sansar would eventually become that virtual world and me and Drongle started discussing the technical requirements.

But if I understand Prokofy Neva right, the way he - and probably others too - understood it, was that some big operator will decide to enter the virtual world scene on a huge scale and rent a cluster of sims at Sansar to build their brave new mass market virtual world.

That is not going to happen.

An operator on that scale will want and need far more control over their product than they can possibly get by buying it wholesale from an external supplier. For a start they will demand exclusive rights to their user database. There is no way they'll be willing to share that with a bunch of smaller actors. They will not be interested in a ready made virtual valuta system controlled by somebody else - either they'll use RL money or they'll make their own system. They can not afford to tie themselves to a single external server host, no matter how solid and reliable that host may seem. Etc., etc. etc.

There are only two ways Sansar can can become the platform for this big virtual reality of the future. One is that LL makes it themselves and if I understand them right, that is not an option they consider.

The other possibility is that Sansar as a whole evolves into this bigger virtual world. That is possible but it will not happen all by itself. We've already discussed the technical requirements briefly. That's essential of course but it's not enough in itself. Big(ish) and wannabe-big entrepreneurs tend to follow the same track. They all go for the easy solutions, the ones they already know work, leaving huge gaps in the market. If Sansar is to become the big mass market virtual world, LL has to find a way to encourage and reward the small(ish) land barons, experience content creators and traditional content creators who dare to be different and try to fill all those niches big scale operators regard as too unsafe or too small. I'm tempted to ask LL what their plans are for this but that might be asking for sensitive corporate secrets, so perhaps a better question is: Do you have good plans for it?

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