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A Confederacy of Dunces?

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Quinn Lysette wrote:

i say they should let ppl own buy the confederate battle flag  its an honer 

 

that whole slave thing   i rember storys my great granma use to tell n she told me her family had a lot of slaves working for them no big whoop just workers

Did your great granma also teach you how to spell?

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We interrupt this object lesson in logical fallacy and historical inaccuracy to bring you this interlude to commemorate the passing of Yes co-founder Chris Squire who died of leukemia today.

And You And I

 

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I think they should not. People can vote with their feet of they choose not to visit regions that display objectionable (to them) material.

 

After all, if a Linden Lab subjectively decided to ban all scantily-clad avatars from the forum; you'd need a new avatar - and that would deprive some of us of a treat :-)

 

Just an example of what can happen when people get too happy censoring our world.........

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:



 

"Fear" is a feeling, "choosing" is an action. The action is based on the feeling, it doesn't exclude or replace it in any way. So yes I agree that racism is a choice, although I strongly feel that it's not a choice easily made. When raised with racist beliefs, the choice to
not
be racist is a lot harder than when you aren't. To see a race as equal, if all the signs tell you that they are inferior (poor, dirty, uneducated, which was the case in the Southern States) is not as obvious as one would like it to be.

I am still convinced that racism is based on fear of the unknown. How else can it be explained that people embrace others they have thought less of when they actually get to meet, know and understand them?


your question: "How else can it be explained that people embrace others they have thought less of when they actually get to meet, know and understand them?"

the answer you have given yourself, it lies in the predicate: "When raised with racist beliefs"

when raised with racist beliefs we do think less of them for this reason. When we put aside this belief, our actions (negative or positive) toward them are based on other reasons, in the absence of racism

when not raised with racist beliefs we dont think less of them for this reason. Our actions (negative or positive) toward them are based on other reasons, in the absence of racism

+

turn your question into a statement: "I dont know you or your kind, and bc I dont know you then I fear you, and bc I fear you then I am a racist. Now that I know you and no longer fear you then I am not a racist"

if this was to hold for all then every racist who meets and comes to know the target of their racism would stop being a racist. Which is not always the case

a racist can not fear and actually like, love even, the target of their racism. Example: This Old South doyen loves his darkies, he finds them to be splendid creatures

+

the connection of racism and slavery

consider: "I have got to know and understand you. I love you and all of your race. In no way at all do I consider your people to be inferior to me or mine. I embrace you. You are the perfect slave and I am very happy and blessed that you are mine"

from this we can conclude that slavery doesnt come out of racism

racism tho can be used as a justification for slavery. Which is how it was used in the Old South and in other parts of the world, as a justification for keeping slaves. There may be other rationales also. A economic rationale for example as you mentioned before. However that there are, racism still was a justification for this

+

exercise: remove the slave from a slavery equation justified by racism. What can happen? the racism can still remain. The belief in our superiority over them

we can just as easily enslave our own kind. And we have at times. And we can justify this by our belief in our superiority over them. On grounds other than racism

next exercise: remove the belief of superiority from a slavery equation

what happens? You are still my slave

+

it doesnt matter to the slave, how the slaver might feel about it

same with the target of racism. How the racist feels isnt what concerns the target. What concerns the target is the impact on them from being targetted. They just want it to stop 

+

i think that when we put these kinds of questions and examine them (critical thinking by example and counter-example), then we can gain a better understanding of ourselves

 

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irihapeti wrote:

your question:
"How else can it be explained that people embrace others they have thought less of when they actually get to meet, know and understand them?"

the answer you have given yourself, it lies in the predicate:
"When raised with racist beliefs
"

This would imply racism is (purely) based on "education", which in turn would mean that it is something one learns from their ancestors. Then the following question remains: who taught the ancestor?

I think racism is far more fundamental.


turn your question into a statement:
"I dont know you or your kind, and bc I dont know you then I fear you, and bc I fear you then I am a racist. Now that I know you and no longer fear you then I am not a racist"

You're taking some leaps in that statement, I'd rephrase it in the line of:

I don't know you or your kind. You're entering the space I occupy. I like the space I occupy the way it is. You probably have other ideas of how my space should be. The way I made my space to be works for me, so it's good. Since you want it to look otherwise, I'm sure it will be worse. My ideas were good, your ideas are probably worse. Then you could take the next small but important step: Since my ideas are good and yours are not, I'm better than you.

To break this line of thought, all one has to do is consider the intentions of the other and evaluate them objectively.


if this was to hold for all then every racist who meets and comes to know the target of their racism would stop being a racist. Which is not always the case

Even though it might not always be the case, it's often the case. Outspoken racists are so convinced they will not pick up any positives from an encounter, they don't give themselves a chance to. "Common" prejudice and the resulting racism is often broken this way though, together with some self reflection. "These people are lazy!" "These people are dumb!" "These people are filthy!"


the connection of racism and slavery

consider:
"I have got to know and understand you. I love you and all of your race. In no way at all do I consider your people to be inferior to me or mine. I embrace you. You are the perfect slave and I am very happy and blessed that you are mine"

from this we can conclude that slavery doesnt come out of racism

racism tho can be used as a justification for slavery. Which is how it was used in the Old South and in other parts of the world, as a justification for keeping slaves. There may be other rationales also. A economic rationale for example as you mentioned before. However that there are, racism still was a justification for this

I don't think your consideration is one anyone has ever made. People do not enslave people they love (a strong feeling of affection). They might enslave people they feel indifferent to.

We can conclude that slavery doesn't neccecarily come out of racism.

I'm in total agreement on the latter part.


exercise: remove the slave from a slavery equation justified by racism. What can happen? the racism can still remain. The belief in our superiority over them

we can just as easily enslave our own kind. And we have at times. And we can justify this by our belief in our superiority over them. On grounds other than racism

Agreed


next exercise: remove the belief of superiority from a slavery equation

what happens? You are still my slave

If superiority is taken from the equation, there is no ground left for slavery. There is no logic in the following: You are my equal, now you do what I have to say.


it doesnt matter to the slave, how the slaver might feel about it

same with the target of racism. How the racist feels isnt what concerns the target. What concerns the target is the impact on them from being targetted. They just want it to stop

Obviously.

Blurred by time and probably censored by the previous generation of Southern slaves to protect their children emotionally,  this page shows a collection of narratives from the 1930's about Southern slavery. It doesn't paint a pretty picture.

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I am all for supremacy.

I think the intelligent should take advantage of the stupid, and the strong exploit the weak, and practical eugenics will ultimately weed out those who are not fit to survive.

Joe

/that's modern civilisation for you.

//Mind you, there will be little pockets of dullard resistance

///Like these forums.

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JoeKingleigh wrote:

I am all for supremacy.

I think the intelligent should take advantage of the stupid, and the strong exploit the weak, and practical eugenics will ultimately weed out those who are not fit to survive.

 

But, but it's all about the flag!  Where's the flag, Joe, where's the flag?  You can't have a supremacy without a flag.

 

So many ideas come to mind. . .

 

 

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JoeKingleigh wrote:

I am all for supremacy.

I think the intelligent should take advantage of the stupid, and the strong exploit the weak, and practical eugenics will ultimately weed out those who are not fit to survive.


I think a group has already beat you to this one.  Check out President Obama and his Cabinet.

 

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DejaHo wrote:


JoeKingleigh wrote:

I am all for supremacy.

I think the intelligent should take advantage of the stupid, and the strong exploit the weak, and practical eugenics will ultimately weed out those who are not fit to survive.

 

But, but it's all about the flag!  Where's the flag, Joe, where's the flag?  You can't have a supremacy without a flag.

 

So many ideas come to mind. . .

 

 

fic-ric3.gif

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


irihapeti wrote:

your question:
"How else can it be explained that people embrace others they have thought less of when they actually get to meet, know and understand them?"

the answer you have given yourself, it lies in the predicate:
"When raised with racist beliefs
"

This would imply racism is (purely) based on "education", which in turn would mean that it is something one learns from their ancestors. Then the following question remains: who taught the ancestor?

I think racism is far more fundamental.

 

we getting into things like social determinism now. Where a behaviour can appear to be instinctual, or innate, bc it is prevalent in our group and has been for as long thru out history as we are able to ascertain

1) "my father was racist, his father and his father and each father before him. I am racist also". True. I am. They are and were
2) "i am racist. My father taught me to be racist, as did his father and each father before him". True. I am. They did
3) "my father was racist, his father and his father and each father before him. Therefore I am racist also"

the inclusion of "therefore" in 3) can be read in two ways. The statement can be seen to be both True and False

when we apply biological determinism then the statement is deniable (False). Beliefs are not material things

when we apply social determinism then the statement is not deniable (True). I am racist so that I am accepted by my father. As he was by his father and his father before him
 
+

you posit: "if we are taught/raised to be racist then who taught the ancestor". The seeming First Teacher dilemna

consider: "I am racist. My father did not teach me this, nor did his father or his father before him"

I am the first teacher. I taught myself

 

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


DejaHo wrote:


JoeKingleigh wrote:

I am all for supremacy.

I think the intelligent should take advantage of the stupid, and the strong exploit the weak, and practical eugenics will ultimately weed out those who are not fit to survive.

 

But, but it's all about the flag!  Where's the flag, Joe, where's the flag?  You can't have a supremacy without a flag.

 

So many ideas come to mind. . .

 

 

fic-ric3.gif


Wow, bores have their own flag now?

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:



 

People do not enslave people they love (
a strong feeling of affection
). They might enslave people they feel indifferent to.

If superiority is taken from the equation, there is no ground left for slavery. There is no logic in the following:
You are my equal, now you do what I have to say.


on the first

i didnt mean to imply a love of equality (between two equals). I meant the love that a doyen has which I mentioned. I love my slave. I love my horse. I love my dog, etc

+

on the second

the grounds that are left when the feeling of superiority is taken out, are things like economic. Which we have discussed earlier. I enslave you for the cheap labour I can obtain, etc

 

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


DejaHo wrote:


JoeKingleigh wrote:

I am all for supremacy.

I think the intelligent should take advantage of the stupid, and the strong exploit the weak, and practical eugenics will ultimately weed out those who are not fit to survive.

 

But, but it's all about the flag!  Where's the flag, Joe, where's the flag?  You can't have a supremacy without a flag.

 

So many ideas come to mind. . .

 

 

fic-ric3.gif


i prefer this one...

m1870108_khornep2mb2.jpg

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irihapeti wrote:

 

you posit:
"if we are taught/raised to be racist then who taught the ancestor".
The seeming First Teacher dilemna

consider:
"I am racist. My father did not teach me this, nor did his father or his father before him"

I am the first teacher. I taught myself

Exactly.

So one can become racist without being taught to be one, there has to be a different basis. Now we're back where we were a couple of pages ago.

 


i didnt mean to imply a love of equality (between two equals). I meant the love that a doyen has which I mentioned. I love my slave. I love my horse. I love my dog, etc


If a "doyen" would truely love his slave, he'd ask what he or she would want.

(If that same doyen would ask his horse that, he'd have to stop drinking)


the grounds that are left when the feeling of superiority is taken out, are things like economic. Which we have discussed earlier. I enslave you for the cheap labour I can obtain, etc


That might be the case, but the second the person is enslaved, the superiority situation is back. So following this logic, there can be the act of enslavement without a feeling of superiority, but there can't be slavery.

 

 

 

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


you posit:
"if we are taught/raised to be racist then who taught the ancestor".
The seeming First Teacher dilemna

consider:
"I am racist. My father did not teach me this, nor did his father or his father before him"

I am the first teacher. I taught myself

Exactly.

So one can become racist without being taught to be one, there has to be a different basis. Now we're back where we were a couple of pages ago.

 

i didnt mean to imply a love of equality (between two equals). I meant the love that a doyen has which I mentioned. I love my slave. I love my horse. I love my dog, etc


If a "doyen" would truely love his slave, he'd ask what he or she would want.

(If that same doyen would ask his horse that, he'd have to stop drinking)

the grounds that are left when the feeling of superiority is taken out, are things like economic. Which we have discussed earlier. I enslave you for the cheap labour I can obtain, etc


That might be the case, but the second the person is enslaved, the superiority situation is back. So following this logic, there can be the act of enslavement without a feeling of superiority, but there can't be slavery.

 

on the first


there are any number of reasons, and ways,  for how a person becomes the first teacher

hate, envy, lust, avarice, to name some


a hate example:

"When I was a child you came, looted my village and slaughtered my parents. I escaped into the forest. You are beasts. I have hated you since and always will. As will my children and their children for all the ages to come"

generations later: "You are beasts. I learned this from my father. As he did from his father, as did each father before him since beyond remembrance. Your protestations that you are not, have no weight over the teachings of my father and his fathers who I know to be cultured and rational men, unlike you"

a determination reinforced socially down thru the years long after the first teacher, fuelled by hate, has been forgotten

+

 
a example that contains envy, lust and avarice

"You are a strong man in good health. You are refined, cultured and learned. You have many admirable qualities. I had prior visited your city on a number of occasions and I always came away impressed. I consider myself a man of blunt truth. I tell you in all honesty that you are a better man than me, I am indeed envious. And I tell you in truth that your people accomplished far more than mine ever will. It is a pity in many ways, for all that was good about it, that your city was sacked, looted, now lies in ruins, your fellow citizens slaughtered or enslaved

However be that as it may, you are now in my chains. I am fortunate that you are strong. Apply yourself to my oars or I will lace your back with my whip until you do. My vessel must make the next city before the new moon rises. I have many cities to sack"

+

while racism is inseperable from Old South slavery, we have to remember that slavery has existed for 1000s and 1000s of years in many parts of the world at many different times. For many reasons. Altho if Old South slavery (and a doctrine of racism to justify it) is our only reference point then it can be difficult sometimes to see what these might be

+

on the second. If we get into that then I probably end up telling you about farmers who crawl thru the snow to bring comfort and help to firsttime sheep moms delivering their firstborn in the cold and dark (:

+

on the third

about superiority after an act of enslavement

this form of superiority comes with hierarchy (is not the same thing as a belief of superiority. Is a real thing)

Enslaved or employed. Ill-treated or well-treated. There is a boss in a hierarchy

a hierachial boss whos orders we are compelled to follow, or suffer the consequences whatever they may be. Heavy for slaves. Light for employees. Somewhere in between for indentured servants

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You don't need to have 100% of people agree that the considerate flag is a racist symbol, you just need the racist to use it that way to make it so.  Today's news really shows that.

"The Ku Klux Klan plans to hold a pro-Confederate flag rally at South Carolina's capitol"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/30/us-usa-south-carolina-klan-idUSKCN0PA11920150630

 

Only A Confederacy of Dunces would think this rally is going to help save the considerate flag.  It's the perfect proof of why it needs to come down.

 

 

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i just add on here some thoughts and a sharing

Kwakkelde, it seems to me that you are in some way descended from slavers maybe ? bc you keep coming back and back to this. Looking for reasons seems to me outside of your ancestors maybe ? when maybe acceptance is all you need

+

i am descend from slavers

at the same time the Old South were keeping slaves, so were my ancestors. The only difference was that we did the capturing and slaughtering the resisters ourselves. Whereas the Old South slavers had someone else do that part for them

i say we bc I am my ancestors, my tupuna, and they are me

then the British came, same as the Union came to the Old South. Big battles. We came second. Same as the Old South

do I want to return to the old ways? No. My ancestors/tupuna way of life was quite horrible in some areas, even if quite wonderful in others. I am not ashamed of them. I dont make any excuses for them either, or try to find reason for why they were horrible in this way. They just were. I accept that, and them both good and bad.

and on balance I am quite glad that we came second

is a whole other story (which I wont get into) about what happened to us after we came second. But those happenings dont change what we did prior to that

+

since those days we have reconciled with those we slaughtered and enslaved and they with us. As we have with them who enslaved and slaughtered us. It wasnt all one way in our country 

reconcilation is a grieving process. Lots of justified tears and anger. It starts and ends with acceptance of who we are, and what happened

wanting to know and discovering the whys is interesting in a academic sense, bc nosey and that. Knowing why tho doesnt change the past, unless our purpose is to rewrite our history in a better light. Better for us. The reality is tho we did it, and the whys dont change that

+

about coming second

the easy thing when we come first is to be honourable, chivalrous, dignified, respectful, humble and gracious. To maintain our mana

is way not easy to do this we come second. Yet that is all we have left when we do come second. Our mana, our self-respect

without mana/self-respect then we reduce ourselves to pride. A pride without honour, without dignity, without graciousness, without respect. A arrogant pride. A arrogance that some people after coming second in WW1, used to propel the world into WWII with themself in the leading role

the good thing I think is that in the South of today there are many people, like most, way most I think, who are accepting of what their ancestors did. They just go yep, we done it, and on balance we are glad that we came second 

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irihapeti wrote:

there are any number of reasons, and ways,  for how a person becomes the first teacher

hate, envy, lust, avarice, to name some


And still I strongly believe there is something far more fundamental, an instinct, not affected by reason or experience.

Racism can be triggered by all the examples you gave, but in no way do I think it explains the "seed" I was talking about earlier.

 


about superiority after an act of enslavement

this form of superiority comes with hierarchy (is not the same thing as a belief of superiority. Is a real thing)

Enslaved or employed. Ill-treated or well-treated. There is a boss in a hierarchy

a hierachial boss whos orders we are compelled to follow, or suffer the consequences whatever they may be. Heavy for slaves. Light for employees. Somewhere in between for indentured servants

They aren't the same, but under certain circumstances, one will lead to the other.

 

________

 

On your other post

I come back because I do not agree with how you see racism. I think your view that racism is based on anything else than something that's rooted inside everyone of us simply is not true. You give the human kind far too much credit in my opinion by stripping it from all animal instincts. We're not all that rational, which makes us a lot more fun, but also very dangerous.

I'd like to add one final thing to the whole superiority (and (connected) human lack of ratio) discussion, one that most people can relate to: consider the fact that the vast majority of drivers think they are better than average. (Interesting to see that the numbers I found, differ by country btw).

I do not have any slaver or slave ancestors. Like you, even if my ancestors were one or the other, I wouldn't have the need to justify their motives to understand myself better, let alone to excuse myself for any feelings I might have. (I'm not saying I have racist feelings, but I certainly could have them.) I do think looking back at history is needed to understand the present as a whole, to understand human nature.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


irihapeti wrote:

there are any number of reasons, and ways,  for how a person becomes the first teacher

hate, envy, lust, avarice, to name some


And still I strongly believe there is something far more fundamental, an instinct, not affected by reason or experience.

Racism can be triggered by all the examples you gave, but in no way do I think it explains the "seed" I was talking about earlier.

 

about superiority after an act of enslavement

this form of superiority comes with hierarchy (is not the same thing as a belief of superiority. Is a real thing)

Enslaved or employed. Ill-treated or well-treated. There is a boss in a hierarchy

a hierachial boss whos orders we are compelled to follow, or suffer the consequences whatever they may be. Heavy for slaves. Light for employees. Somewhere in between for indentured servants

They aren't the same, but under certain circumstances, one will lead to the other.

 

________

 

On your other post

I come back because I do not agree with how you see racism. I think your view that racism is based on anything else than something that's rooted inside everyone of us simply is not true. You give the human kind far too much credit in my opinion by stripping it from all animal instincts. We're not all that rational, which makes us a lot more fun, but also very dangerous.

I'd like to add one final thing to the whole superiority (and (connected) human lack of ratio) discussion, one that most people can relate to: consider the fact that the vast majority of drivers think they are better than average. (Interesting to see that the numbers I found, differ by country btw).

I do not have any slaver
or
slave ancestors. Like you, even if my ancestors were one or the other, I wouldn't have the need to justify their motives to understand myself better, let alone to excuse myself for any feelings I might have. (I'm not saying I
have
racist feelings, but I certainly
could
have them.) I do think looking back at history is needed to understand the present as a whole, to understand human nature.

There's certainly an instinctive reaction to someone different -- the whole "grrrrr --- SMELLS DIFFERENT! Bowowowowww!!!" thing. However, if you have a systematic reaction to an entire class there needs to be something consciously built on top of that. A tree comes from a seed, and in fact is genetically identical to its seed, but it's fundamentally different from a seed in many practical ways.

The process we call "rationality" has a lot to do with justifying and codifying our instinctive beliefs. A dog or a small child will react instinctively to a stranger as a threat, but then they often change their reaction when they determine that individual isn't a threat at all. If you're taught a type of person or thing is a threat, though, logically enough you'll be reluctant to examine it closely enough to determine whether it's a threat or not, because the process of examining it will expose you to risk if it is a threat. This is the whole "tomatoes are poisonous" cycle.

People are also very reluctant to admit they're wrong and will sometimes do mental gymnastics to avoid discovering or acknowledging their errors. At the end of the American Civil War the Confederates were in such dire straits they considered recruiting soldiers from among the slaves. Howell Cobb, one of the real leaders of the secession movement, opposed the idea with the statement, "If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong." If you build your society on the idea a group is inferior then you have to keep thinking they're inferior or the whole thing will collapse.

 

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But...tomatoes are poisonous! :)

Anyway, well put. I think you captured how I feel quite nicely.

The whole Southern slaver superiority looks like it's used as an excuse for a great part. Why else were most slaves forbidden to learn to read or write, let alone read or own a book for example? Not only did the secessionists (if that's a word) have to believe they were superior, they tried to make sure they actually were.

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