Bree Giffen Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't think LL should ban confederate flags. Look at what is cited as examples of taking down the flag, Target, Walmart, Amazon,. These are corporate entities whose moral compass is based on preserving their public image. The media does not mention of individuals taking down the flag. It is a hollow gesture to allow the corporation to pat itself on the back. Taking down flag products does nothing to change the thoughts or behavior af a racist person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 The so called confederate flag is the battle flag not the official flag of the confederacy. This is the actual national confederate flag: I live in the former capital of the Confederacy and most people here think that flag IS a flag of racial hatred. It's used by the same people that claim the civil war was not about slavery, but states rights in an attempt to justify and white wash the south's did. But the right that they were fighting for was the right to keep slaves. Here the flag can not be used on state property anymore except in a museum setting. There is even a debate starting now about all the statues that were erected after 'the recent unpleasentness' of Confederate Generals to glorify them and if they too should be removed. The special license plate for the Son's of the Confederate Veterans is now being redesigned to remove the flag too. South Carolina recently is having a debate about the flag flying on state property too. The governor has said it only belongs in a museum. Alabama just today removed it from government property. While people are allowed to fly the flag on private property because it is a free speech issue, you don't even see it used that way much anymore around here. The flag is a part of history and it is important as a learning experience about what the Civil War was about, but I don't think that it should be used except as an historical educational tool. To the person who claimed it was not as bad as the nazi symbols, I disagree. If you are black it symbolizes how your ancestors were treated as slaves. Slave owners could do what they want with their slaves and a lot of them treated them like animals including what we consider today torturing them and killing them. As far as LL is concerned, I wouldn't want them to stomp all over free speech, but using it in a racist manner should be banned and AR'd, IMO. I am white in RL and I find it offensive myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Bree Giffen wrote: I don't think LL should ban confederate flags. Look at what is cited as examples of taking down the flag, Target, Walmart, Amazon,. These are corporate entities whose moral compass is based on preserving their public image. The media does not mention of individuals taking down the flag. You say this as if LL isn't concerned with preserving their public image... oh wait. Bree Giffen wrote: It is a hollow gesture to allow the corporation to pat itself on the back. Taking down flag products does nothing to change the thoughts or behavior af a racist person. I agree. I find it rather amusing how so many politicians have supposedly, all of a sudden, realized the meaning which has been connected to this flag for so very long and how now they're trying to bend over backwards to take them down, remove statues and rename streets. A vulgar display which reeks of political expedience, in a lame attempt to sidestep the actual issues. You just know they'll be patting themselves on the back for doing little more than a bit of redecorating. It disgusts me to think that it took such a horrific tragedy to get them to do even that. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: The so called confederate flag is the battle flag not the official flag of the confederacy. This is the actual national confederate flag: I live in the former capital of the Confederacy and most people here think that flag IS a flag of racial hatred. It's used by the same people that claim the civil war was not about slavery, but states rights in an attempt to justify and white wash the south's did. But the right that they were fighting for was the right to keep slaves. Here the flag can not be used on state property anymore except in a museum setting. There is even a debate starting now about all the statues that were erected after 'the recent unpleasentness' of Confederate Generals to glorify them and if they too should be removed. The special license plate for the Son's of the Confederate Veterans is now being redesigned to remove the flag too. South Carolina recently is having a debate about the flag flying on state property too. The governor has said it only belongs in a museum. Alabama just today removed it from government property. While people are allowed to fly the flag on private property because it is a free speech issue, you don't even see it used that way much anymore around here. The flag is a part of history and it is important as a learning experience about what the Civil War was about, but I don't think that it should be used except as an historical educational tool. To the person who claimed it was not as bad as the nazi symbols, I disagree. If you are black it symbolizes how your ancestors were treated as slaves. Slave owners could do what they want with their slaves and a lot of them treated them like animals including what we consider today torturing them and killing them. As far as LL is concerned, I wouldn't want them to stomp all over free speech, but using it in a racist manner should be banned and AR'd, IMO. I am white in RL and I find it offensive myself. QFT. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda Huntress Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: As far as LL is concerned, I wouldn't want them to stomp all over free speech, but using it in a racist manner should be banned and AR'd, IMO. I am white in RL and I find it offensive myself. One could write an novel about iconography and intent. To me it is just a field of colors and shapes and not any more offensive than a cross or the herringbone pattern in the brick sidewalk outside. It's the people who use it that I find offensive.. You can take away their symbol but they would just find another. Just because I'm curious, what does the rest of the world think? Do the Koreans just roll their eyes at American arrogance to think their internal squabbles mean anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Rhonda Huntress wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: As far as LL is concerned, I wouldn't want them to stomp all over free speech, but using it in a racist manner should be banned and AR'd, IMO. I am white in RL and I find it offensive myself. One could write an novel about iconography and intent. To me it is just a field of colors and shapes and not any more offensive than a cross or the herringbone pattern in the brick sidewalk outside. It's the people who use it that I find offensive.. You can take away their symbol but they would just find another. Just because I'm curious, what does the rest of the world think? Do the Koreans just roll their eyes at American arrogance to think their internal squabbles mean anything? A few weeks ago we were having a very similar conversation about Nazi symbolism - Americans (in the thread, at least) were generally less bothered by it than Europeans. In particular, there was thinking among Americans that it was just "history" and Europeans considered it "political." At the time (before the Charleston shootings, mind you) I remember thinking that for Americans the Symbol Known as the Confederate Battle Flag had similar connotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Faulds Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Banning the Confederate flag shouldn't happen. It's history. If they ban it, they'll have to ban the Nazi flag as well. Doing either in the US in RL would fall under a first ammendment violation. Stores don't have to sell the flag if they choose not to. I don't think it's appropriate on government land other than in a museum setting. As for Sl, banning it would be impossible since all someone would have to do is upload the texture and make it themselves. Banning something would just make people want to do just because they aren't supposed to. Symbols are easily perverted by fanatics. The swastika, for instance, means peace and love to the Hindus. The Nazis co-opted and perverted it so that now, when you see a swastika, you immediately think Nazi. Funny story, some white supremecists in California defaced a Hindu temple with...wait for it...SWASTIKAS. The temple priests issued a statement thanking whoever spray painted the symbols for their wishes of peace and love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenMichelle Lane Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Answer: NO! Why/ Because mass idiocy is not something to be mimicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Good or bad, the images people use to advertise their beliefs aid in the identification of those beliefs, and those people. I'm not in favor of making that harder to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PersistentDigger Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 " ... what does the rest of the world think?" Well, as a European, the Confederate flag is a very familiar image; we might vaguely know about its origin in the American Civil War, but for us it doesn't generally come freighted with awkward moral or ideological worries. (Though I can see how it would be so much "closer to the bone" for you Americans. Incidentally, where we tend to see it most often is on the leather jackets and machines of hard-core bikers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Rhonda Huntress wrote: Just because I'm curious, what does the rest of the world think? Do the Koreans just roll their eyes at American arrogance to think their internal squabbles mean anything? This is a very strange question. I've been attempting to discuss one small aspect of the fallout after a national tragedy and consider your referring to that as an internal squabble rather dismissive. After all, I wouldn't have classified the French people's reaction to the Charlie Hebdo incident internal squabbling. If being concerned with something that is happening in my own backyard and not really caring what people who live across the globe think of my being so makes me arrogant, then so be it. I'm sure Americans are not the only ones likely to feel that way. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda Huntress Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 :smileylol: I was asking for opinions. I got yours, but then I already knew what it was. I live here too and have slaves very close in my family. I was hoping to find points of view outside of our boarders and wanted to be sure that people knew they would not judge no matter how they felt. I don't see that being possible now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Good or bad, the images people use to advertise their beliefs aid in the identification of those beliefs, and those people. I'm not in favor of making that harder to do. I tend to agree with you on this. Part of the problem with political correctness is that it entices people to cloak their true intentions. Hence, the use of Southern pride as a defense of the confederate battle flag. Long overdue is the time for such pretense to be seen by most for exactly that which it has been since before I was born. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Rhonda Huntress wrote: :smileylol: I was asking for opinions. I got yours, but then I already knew what it was. I live here too and have slaves very close in my family. I was hoping to find points of view outside of our boarders and wanted to be sure that people knew they would not judge no matter how they felt. I don't see that being possible now. My issue was with the presumptive and dismissive manner in which you phrased your question, not with the question itself. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Dresden wrote: DejaHo wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: DejaHo wrote: In a PC world, humor is a capital offense. No, LL should not follow the likes of others and ban images of the confederate flag. What's next banning Christmas perhaps? The rainbow flag? How about the Russian flag raised at the UN? Wal-mart and others are following the John Ashcroft model - cover all the naked statues . . . None of your examples ar symbols of atrocity.. You have: a stolen holiday, a sybmbol of equality and love, and a countries flag. And you Godwin'ed the thread with your first post. I disagree... it's not a Godwin when it's a fair comparison. ...Dres Do you really think Nazi Germany = Southern CSA? It is a totally disproportionate analogy. I am not a southerner, but I never made the leap to equate the two. Probably because you're white? You are being obtuse. And intimating that because a person may be white that they cannot discern the obvious differences between the two without being biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 For many outside the US, and probably for some within as well, the flag is seen 'innocently' as a "Rebel Banner". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Dresden wrote: DejaHo wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: DejaHo wrote: In a PC world, humor is a capital offense. No, LL should not follow the likes of others and ban images of the confederate flag. What's next banning Christmas perhaps? The rainbow flag? How about the Russian flag raised at the UN? Wal-mart and others are following the John Ashcroft model - cover all the naked statues . . . None of your examples ar symbols of atrocity.. You have: a stolen holiday, a sybmbol of equality and love, and a countries flag. And you Godwin'ed the thread with your first post. I disagree... it's not a Godwin when it's a fair comparison. ...Dres Do you really think Nazi Germany = Southern CSA? It is a totally disproportionate analogy. I am not a southerner, but I never made the leap to equate the two. Probably because you're white? You are being obtuse. And intimating that because a person may be white that they cannot discern the obvious differences between the two without being biased. I wasn't the one who suggested it was a fair comparison in the first place, now was I? I'm just suggesting that what race you are may have some impact on your opinion of a group of people who built the "cornerstone of their society" on thoughts like these, from Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America (and a moderate among them, mind you) : "The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.” "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanBenjammin Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Just because I'm curious, what does the rest of the world think? Do the Koreans just roll their eyes at American arrogance to think their internal squabbles mean anything? [removing long statement about gun control before I post this, I don't want to start that 'debate'...] The confederate flag to me (I didn't realise it wasn't their national flag till I read the coverage on BBC) symbolizes the american redneck stereotype and all the ignorance that goes with it. That some consider it a symbol of pride just multiplies that perception of ignorance. The idea that southern states can fly it in a semi-official capacity after losing the war is....bemusing. I can't speak for the koreans (who it should be remembered never finished their 'civil war', and for whom the division between north and south is a little more relevant..), but yes, the rest of the world rolls their eyes at American arrogance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DejaHo Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Theresa Tennyson wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Dresden wrote: DejaHo wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: DejaHo wrote: In a PC world, humor is a capital offense. No, LL should not follow the likes of others and ban images of the confederate flag. What's next banning Christmas perhaps? The rainbow flag? How about the Russian flag raised at the UN? Wal-mart and others are following the John Ashcroft model - cover all the naked statues . . . None of your examples ar symbols of atrocity.. You have: a stolen holiday, a sybmbol of equality and love, and a countries flag. And you Godwin'ed the thread with your first post. I disagree... it's not a Godwin when it's a fair comparison. ...Dres Do you really think Nazi Germany = Southern CSA? It is a totally disproportionate analogy. I am not a southerner, but I never made the leap to equate the two. Probably because you're white? You are being obtuse. And intimating that because a person may be white that they cannot discern the obvious differences between the two without being biased. I wasn't the one who suggested it was a fair comparison in the first place, now was I? I'm just suggesting that what race you are may have some impact on your opinion of a group of people who built the "cornerstone of their society" on thoughts like these, from Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America (and a moderate among them, mind you) : The 'flag' flew over the battlefield. It was raised and flew on the mast of the USS Columbia in WWII. It flew on retaken conquered islands in the Pacific. If flew on the tanks and jeeps of southern soldiers in Vietnam. It, as far as I know, has never flown over the housing quarters of slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DejaHo Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Perhaps you're laboring under the misconception that the confederate battle flag is simply a symbol of Southern pride... it's not. ...Dres Perhaps I am Dres. This is what I have been taught. This is what I witness. Yes, there are those who abuse and misconstrue its meaning to support their own hatred, but I do not. What if what you've been taught is wrong? What if what you've witnessed is incomplete? What if it's actually you who's misconstruing the meaning? Vilification of that battle flag and the Confederacy is part of the cultural revolution in America that flowered half a century ago. Among its goals was the demoralization of the American people by demonizing their past and poisoning their belief in their own history. P. Buchanan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpman Lane Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No one has freedom of speech on someone else's dime. Saps who fly the Stars & Bars are repping their white pride with a symbol of treason against the U. S. as an aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 DejaHo wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Dresden wrote: DejaHo wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: DejaHo wrote: In a PC world, humor is a capital offense. No, LL should not follow the likes of others and ban images of the confederate flag. What's next banning Christmas perhaps? The rainbow flag? How about the Russian flag raised at the UN? Wal-mart and others are following the John Ashcroft model - cover all the naked statues . . . None of your examples ar symbols of atrocity.. You have: a stolen holiday, a sybmbol of equality and love, and a countries flag. And you Godwin'ed the thread with your first post. I disagree... it's not a Godwin when it's a fair comparison. ...Dres Do you really think Nazi Germany = Southern CSA? It is a totally disproportionate analogy. I am not a southerner, but I never made the leap to equate the two. Probably because you're white? You are being obtuse. And intimating that because a person may be white that they cannot discern the obvious differences between the two without being biased. I wasn't the one who suggested it was a fair comparison in the first place, now was I? I'm just suggesting that what race you are may have some impact on your opinion of a group of people who built the "cornerstone of their society" on thoughts like these, from Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America (and a moderate among them, mind you) : The 'flag' flew over the battlefield. It was raised and flew on the mast of the USS Columbia in WWII. It flew on retaken conquered islands in the Pacific. If flew on the tanks and jeeps of southern soldiers in Vietnam. It, as far as I know, has never flown over the housing quarters of slaves. Some Confederate Army officers traveled with their personal slaves, so ipso facto it flew over housing quarters of slaves. And now you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 DejaHo wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Perhaps you're laboring under the misconception that the confederate battle flag is simply a symbol of Southern pride... it's not. ...Dres Perhaps I am Dres. This is what I have been taught. This is what I witness. Yes, there are those who abuse and misconstrue its meaning to support their own hatred, but I do not. What if what you've been taught is wrong? What if what you've witnessed is incomplete? What if it's actually you who's misconstruing the meaning? Vilification of that battle flag and the Confederacy is part of the cultural revolution in America that flowered half a century ago. Among its goals was the demoralization of the American people by demonizing their past and poisoning their belief in their own history. P. Buchanan How exactly does that answer my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DejaHo Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Perhaps you're laboring under the misconception that the confederate battle flag is simply a symbol of Southern pride... it's not. ...Dres Perhaps I am Dres. This is what I have been taught. This is what I witness. Yes, there are those who abuse and misconstrue its meaning to support their own hatred, but I do not. What if what you've been taught is wrong? What if what you've witnessed is incomplete? What if it's actually you who's misconstruing the meaning? Vilification of that battle flag and the Confederacy is part of the cultural revolution in America that flowered half a century ago. Among its goals was the demoralization of the American people by demonizing their past and poisoning their belief in their own history. P. Buchanan How exactly does that answer my question? The answer to your question is 42. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: DejaHo wrote: Perhaps you're laboring under the misconception that the confederate battle flag is simply a symbol of Southern pride... it's not. ...Dres Perhaps I am Dres. This is what I have been taught. This is what I witness. Yes, there are those who abuse and misconstrue its meaning to support their own hatred, but I do not. What if what you've been taught is wrong? What if what you've witnessed is incomplete? What if it's actually you who's misconstruing the meaning? Vilification of that battle flag and the Confederacy is part of the cultural revolution in America that flowered half a century ago. Among its goals was the demoralization of the American people by demonizing their past and poisoning their belief in their own history. P. Buchanan How exactly does that answer my question? I don't think he was answering your question so much as proving your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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