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Roche Runo

How would you have handled this situation

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in my club owning days i held a comic book character event.  Some one came in wearing a costume of a dc comics villian named Capt Natzi.  It was, of course a natzi uniform he was wearing but he changeed the swastica to a red cross our of respect  I know the guy  and  he is not a racist by any means and  is a really nice guy.  In fact i really didnt notice untill i got an im from a lady  demanding that i kick him out.   I looked over at what he was wearing  and i will admit i was suprried by it.   But as i  had had not other complaint  i just suggest that she just  turn her view so she couldnt see him.   She insisted she could look any dam way she pleased.   So i suggest she mention her concerns to him    Again the answer is no      So i talk to the guy  and asked him if he would consider changing because it was uppsetting in the first place .    He refused saying it was a legitmate comic boo charachter,  She was overeacting.    He fingally agreed to remove the hat.   But that wasnt good enough for her.  So  asked the crowd  if the costume upset anyone.  And everyone said no it doesnt So i said to the woman  i am sorry but seem to the only one bothered by it.   Personally  i myself thought it was in bad taste  but bad taste is not a reason to kick some one out.    Dont get me wrong  it was horrible what happpend in germany   but  a club is not the place to be bringing up polical issues.    So i suggested  if she was so unhappy  why not  come back another night.  Her answer was i wont ever be back.    I said  that respect your choice but i do hope you changes her mind    I actually verified that the character was legitimate.  http://www.comicvine.com/captain-nazi/4005-24925/

I look forward to seeing how other people would handle this situation

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I think you handled it well, I wouldn't even have gone so far as to bring the issue of one person to the rest of the crowd. I see SIM owners and club owners bann people at the drop of a hat because one person seems to not like something about another person. Why do they do it? Because they are really not interested in thinking and looking at the situation and managing, it's easier to just click and bann. I think SIM owners and club owners need to be very careful in getting involved in person to person dispute unless they are taking it into public chat or their actions are disrupting the venue. There’s always going to be some people or at least one that is over sensitive. I think you did well and I for one appreciate managers and owners like you that look at it and make an informed and balanced decision that’s best for the masses.

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You handled the situation just right. You didnt get emotional or let your own thoughts influence your negotiation and you were polite and gave everyone a chance to give their view. 

What other people chose to do was up to them. 

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At the places in which I'm involved we analyse these situations thus:

Do we want people at the venue wearing Nazi uniforms or outfits that are easily mistaken for them?

Since the answer to that is  "No," it follows that, in case of complaints (or if I think it looks like a Nazi uniform) I'll ask people to change their uniforms and, if they refuse to comply, I'll ask them to leave (backed up with the land tools if they don't comply).

I don't know about you, but if people are going to complain about my club I'd far rather they were complaining they were kicked out for wearing a "Captain Nazi" uniform than they were complaining that people hang out at my club wearing Nazi uniforms and the management refuse to do anything about it.    Depends what sort of customers you want to attract, I suppose.  

Either way, I'd decide on a policy and stick to it, rather than asking the other guests at the club what they think.    That's certainly given the woman who complained good reason to want to avoid the club in future and tell her like-minded friends so to do, too.   

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I think every club should have rules that other staff can use when assessing complaints like this.  You cannot be there 24/7 to police everything.  Stick to the rules and be fair.  Rules should be in the covenant, too, so everyone can see/read them.

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Roche Runo wrote:

in my club owning days i held a comic book character event.  Some one came in wearing a costume of a dc comics villian named Capt Natzi.  It was, of course a natzi uniform he was wearing but he changeed the swastica to a red cross our of respect  I know the guy  and  he is not a racist by any means and  is a really nice guy.  In fact i really didnt notice untill i got an im from a lady  demanding that i kick him out.   I looked over at what he was wearing  and i will admit i was suprried by it.   But as i  had had not other complaint  i just suggest that she just  turn her view so she couldnt see him.   She insisted she could look any dam way she pleased.   So i suggest she mention her concerns to him    Again the answer is no      So i talk to the guy  and asked him if he would consider changing because it was uppsetting in the first place .    He refused saying it was a legitmate comic boo charachter,  She was overeacting.    He fingally agreed to remove the hat.   But that wasnt good enough for her.  So  asked the crowd  if the costume upset anyone.  And everyone said no it doesnt So i said to the woman  i am sorry but seem to the only one bothered by it.   Personally  i myself thought it was in bad taste  but bad taste is not a reason to kick some one out.    Dont get me wrong  it was horrible what happpend in germany   but  a club is not the place to be bringing up polical issues.    So i suggested  if she was so unhappy  why not  come back another night.  Her answer was i wont ever be back.    I said  that respect your choice but i do hope you changes her mind    I actually verified that the character was legitimate. 

I look forward to seeing how other people would handle this situation

I would have asked the guest in the nazi-uniform to either change to another uniform or leave the club.

Even though this uniform is about a comic book character, not everybody recognize it as such.

No one should be making any kind of jokes with Nazi uniforms ... the signals which such a uniform sends out, are way too serious for a lot of people, who feel hurt about the past.

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Diffferently.

Teri

((I would have been concerned about the German Secret Police breaking down my doors and aresting me, since Nazi paraphernalia and indeed the swastika is illegal there, an as SL is a global platform you would have been breaching their laws by allowing the character to wear his cotume.))

(((In fact, LL would potentially be liable in a German court for allowing it.)))

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Roche Runo wrote: it was in bad taste  but bad taste is not a reason to kick some one out.


It's an excellent reason!

Teri

((In fac t, it's one of the principal reasons why clubs in SL are so sparsely attended.))

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MissTeriMahn wrote:

Diffferently.

Teri

((I would have been concerned about the German Secret Police breaking down my doors and aresting me, since Nazi paraphernalia and indeed the swastika is illegal there, an as SL is a global platform you would have been breaching their laws by allowing the character to wear his cotume.))

(((In fact, LL would potentially be liable in a German court for allowing it.)))

Which is an interesting observation considering that the OP mentioned it didn't have a swastika, O Prince/ss of Reading Comprension...

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


MissTeriMahn wrote:

Diffferently.

Teri

((I would have been concerned about the German Secret Police breaking down my doors and aresting me, since Nazi paraphernalia and indeed the swastika is illegal there, an as SL is a global platform you would have been breaching their laws by allowing the character to wear his cotume.))

(((In fact, LL would potentially be liable in a German court for allowing it.)))

Which is an interesting observation considering that the OP mentioned it
didn't
have a swastika, O Prince/ss of Reading Comprension...

Where in my post did I say it was being worn?

Teri

((I won't offer to call you a Princess of Reading Comprehension, because my sarcasm doesn't stretch that far.))

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MissTeriMahn wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


MissTeriMahn wrote:

Diffferently.

Teri

((I would have been concerned about the German Secret Police breaking down my doors and aresting me, since Nazi paraphernalia and indeed the swastika is illegal there, an as SL is a global platform you would have been breaching their laws by allowing the character to wear his cotume.))

(((In fact, LL would potentially be liable in a German court for allowing it.)))

Which is an interesting observation considering that the OP mentioned it
didn't
have a swastika, O Prince/ss of Reading Comprension...

Where in my post did I say it was being worn?

Teri

((I won't offer to call you a Princess of Reading Comprehension, because my sarcasm doesn't stretch that far.))

The German law involves certain specific symbols - the swastika being one, with the others most familiar from World War II being the runic lightning-bolt SS and the totenkopf death's head emblem of the Schutzstaffel ("SS"). The basic uniforms themselves aren't part of the law. Interestingly enough, some of the banned symbols appear to be neo-Nazi associated and aren't familiar to most people outside of Germany. In fact, one of them is a fairly commonly used decoration in SL.

In SL, Luftwaffe planes and Wehrmacht uniforms are common; however, the planes don't have the swastika on the vertical stabilizer, which was the one place the Luftwaffe planes had swastikas.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


MissTeriMahn wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


MissTeriMahn wrote:

Diffferently.

Teri

((I would have been concerned about the German Secret Police breaking down my doors and aresting me, since Nazi paraphernalia and indeed the swastika is illegal there, an as SL is a global platform you would have been breaching their laws by allowing the character to wear his cotume.))

(((In fact, LL would potentially be liable in a German court for allowing it.)))

Which is an interesting observation considering that the OP mentioned it
didn't
have a swastika, O Prince/ss of Reading Comprension...

Where in my post did I say it was being worn?

Teri

((I won't offer to call you a Princess of Reading Comprehension, because my sarcasm doesn't stretch that far.))

The German law involves certain specific
symbols
- the swastika being one, with the others most familiar from World War II being the runic lightning-bolt
SS
and the
totenkopf
death's head emblem of the
Schutzstaffel
("SS"). The basic uniforms themselves aren't part of the law. Interestingly enough, some of the banned symbols appear to be neo-Nazi associated and aren't familiar to most people outside of Germany. In fact, one of them is a fairly commonly used decoration in SL.

In SL,
Luftwaffe
planes and
Wehrmacht
uniforms are common; however, the planes don't have the swastika on the vertical stabilizer, which was the one place the Luftwaffe planes had swastikas.

So, basically, you are agreeing I am right.

Teri

((While ignoring your own miscomprehension.))

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MissTeriMahn wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


MissTeriMahn wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


MissTeriMahn wrote:

Diffferently.

Teri

((I would have been concerned about the German Secret Police breaking down my doors and aresting me, since Nazi paraphernalia and indeed the swastika is illegal there, an as SL is a global platform you would have been breaching their laws by allowing the character to wear his cotume.))

(((In fact, LL would potentially be liable in a German court for allowing it.)))

Which is an interesting observation considering that the OP mentioned it
didn't
have a swastika, O Prince/ss of Reading Comprension...

Where in my post did I say it was being worn?

Teri

((I won't offer to call you a Princess of Reading Comprehension, because my sarcasm doesn't stretch that far.))

The German law involves certain specific
symbols
- the swastika being one, with the others most familiar from World War II being the runic lightning-bolt
SS
and the
totenkopf
death's head emblem of the
Schutzstaffel
("SS"). The basic uniforms themselves aren't part of the law. Interestingly enough, some of the banned symbols appear to be neo-Nazi associated and aren't familiar to most people outside of Germany. In fact, one of them is a fairly commonly used decoration in SL.

In SL,
Luftwaffe
planes and
Wehrmacht
uniforms are common; however, the planes don't have the swastika on the vertical stabilizer, which was the one place the Luftwaffe planes had swastikas.

So, basically, you are agreeing I am right.

Teri

((While ignoring your own miscomprehension.))

The costume of the Marvel character in question has no Nazi-related insignia or symbols except for the swastika, which the OP said had been changed out.

Soooo....

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Roche Runo wrote:

I look forward to seeing how other people would handle this situation

I would have handled it quite similarly, with the exception that I wouldn't have ask what everyone else thought.

Was his choice of costume meant to be provocative?  I would think most definitely so.  But, the fact remains that it was a fictional character and should have been taken as such.  It's not as if he was actually espousing Nazi ideology... handing out propaganda and such.  It would be like someone going to a Halloween costume party and getting offended because someone came dressed as Satan.

I would suggest that the woman who was so very offended was actually the one in the wrong.  Had she have simply blocked him, she would no longer have been able to see him... thus, alleviating herself of the offending imagery.  Instead, she choose to try to force her will upon, not only another individual, but also the venue operator, as well as the rest of the event attendees.  Alternatively, she could have just left the venue altogether from the get go, without all the unnecessary drama which intermediately ensued.

Honestly, I think you're better off losing her as a patron.

...Dres

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From a legal standpoint SL is governed by the laws of California and the US.  In the US it is legal to wear a nazi uniform as it falls under the protection of free speech. 

German law only applies to an individual user who is responsible for compliance with their coutries laws.  In other words, if it is legal in California Germans had the responsiblity of leaving if they felt it was illegal in Germany. 

From the TOS:

10.2 The applicable law and venue is in San Francisco, California.

You agree that this Agreement and the relationship between you and Linden Lab shall be governed by the laws of the State of California without regard to conflict of law principles or the United Nations Convention on the International Sale of Goods. Further, you and Linden Lab agree to submit to the exclusive personal jurisdiction and venue of the courts located in the City and County of San Francisco, California, except as provided in Section 10 regarding arbitration.

11.1 The Service is a United States-based service.

Linden Lab controls and operates the Service from its offices in the United States. Linden Lab makes no representation that any aspect of the Service is appropriate or available for use outside of the United States. Those who access the Service from other locations are doing so on their own initiative and are responsible for compliance with applicable local laws regarding your online conduct and acceptable content, if and to the extent local laws apply.

 

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I don't know of anywhere of what you'd call an official statement by LL about the swastika.

According to Jo Yardley she was told when she asked LL that they were not allowed.  LINK

You can also see in the old incident reports that people were told they were not allowed.  LINK, Bottom of page.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I don't know of anywhere of what you'd call an official statement by LL about the swastika.

According to Jo Yardley she was told when she asked LL that they were not allowed.  

You can also see in the old incident reports that people were told they were not allowed.  

 

Thanks Perrie, you do realize that there were no swastikas involved, right?

...Dres

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I wouldn't have polled the crowd, but otherwise, fairly similarly to the way you did. I might have pointed out to her that the costume was of a legitimate comic book character, and thus in keeping with the theme; and given her the name of the character to google if she so chose. I also don't think I would have asked him to change on her behalf. She was the one offended, so in my opinion it was her responsibility to ask him to change. 

If, on the other hand, someone wandered in wearing such a uniform on a non-theme night, or on a theme night wherein the costume was not applicable, I probably would have requested more firmly that the person change or leave. 

Then again, I'm a big proponent of mute and move on, so...To each their own, I suppose. 

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The Nazi topic is difficult and you will always piss someone off for various reasons.

In my country this symbols are forbidden. I know that the americans have another point of view and this things fall under free speech. But if I am the host - the american point of view is not my problem - and I'd kicked this person out. If I'm a guest I can ignore this as long as there isn't a gathering of this people.

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Americans have a rather different view of this than most of the rest of the world. Most of us have "hate laws" that place restrictions upon freedom of speech when a particular group is being targetted with what is obviously hate speech. You can get away with saying and doing things in the US that just wouldn't fly in Canada or most European countries. Sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes not so much. The Westboro Baptist Church just wouldn't be able to operate the way it does where I live.

I found this comment interesting: "a club is not the place to be bringing up polical issues."

This strikes me as nonsense, first because the legacy of Nazism isn't "politics," it's history. This is a bit like saying you don't want to condemn Attila the Hun because you don't like discussing politics.

But it's also nonsense because "political issues" are everywhere and in everything we wear, say, and do, in clubs and outside of clubs. Saying you don't want to discuss political issues insulates you from having to think about the implications of the very real ideological impact of nearly everything we do. "Politics" is in how "sexily" we chose to dress, or whether our avatar looks staid, or punky, or conservative. It's in the slang we use. It's pretty much everywhere.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

I found this comment interesting: "
a club is not the place to be bringing up polical issues."

This strikes me as nonsense, first because
the legacy of Nazism isn't "politics," it's history.
This is a bit like saying you don't want to condemn Attila the Hun because you don't like discussing politics.

 

In North America that statement may be viable, but not so much in Europe. There are extreme right-wing parties in most European countries that can at least be associated with Nazi thought today.

 


LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

But it's also nonsense because "political issues" are everywhere and in everything we wear, say, and do, in clubs and outside of clubs. Saying you don't want to discuss political issues insulates you from having to think about the implications of the very real ideological impact of nearly everything we do. "Politics" is in how "sexily" we chose to dress, or whether our avatar looks staid, or punky, or conservative. It's in the slang we use. It's pretty much everywhere.

You can certainly argue that -- IF you don't mind words having their definitions stretched to the point they become nearly meaningless. I assume the point you're replying to referred to the much more specific case of discussing the legal governance system of a specific place, which can be even more inappropriate in a Second Life "club" because the "attendees" come from a wide variety of real-world places -- as witnessed by your thinking that Nazis are a "historical" topic and Europeans considering them a "political" one.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

I found this comment interesting: "
a club is not the place to be bringing up polical issues."

This strikes me as nonsense, first because
the legacy of Nazism isn't "politics," it's history.
This is a bit like saying you don't want to condemn Attila the Hun because you don't like discussing politics.

 

In North America that statement may be viable, but not so much in Europe. There are extreme right-wing parties in most European countries that can at least be associated with Nazi thought today.

This is a really interesting point, and it does muddy the waters somewhat -- but someone who is dressing up in a costume that clearly alludes to the Germany Nazi party (fl. 1920-1945) is more obviously referencing the historical party, rather than (say) The Golden Dawn or the National Front. But I'll agree that there are likely to be contemporary resonances to some European observers that are not so obvious to someone from North America.

 

LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

But it's also nonsense because "political issues" are everywhere and in everything we wear, say, and do, in clubs and outside of clubs. Saying you don't want to discuss political issues insulates you from having to think about the implications of the very real ideological impact of nearly everything we do. "Politics" is in how "sexily" we chose to dress, or whether our avatar looks staid, or punky, or conservative. It's in the slang we use. It's pretty much everywhere.

You can certainly argue that -- IF you don't mind words having their definitions stretched to the point they become nearly meaningless. I assume the point you're replying to referred to the much more specific case of discussing the legal governance system of a specific place, which can be even more inappropriate in a Second Life "club" because the "attendees" come from a wide variety of real-world places -- as witnessed by your thinking that Nazis are a "historical" topic and Europeans considering them a "political" one.

Really, I was just making the point that "politics" isn't present only in the overt ways in which we may choose to discuss or display it -- uniforms, slogans, discourse and so forth -- but in other ways too. The distinction between explicitly addressing "political issues" and subtly (or sometimes not so subtly) embedding them in the other things through which we represent outselves is a false one. Also, that "politics" isn't just about political parties.

 

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Dresden wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

I don't know of anywhere of what you'd call an official statement by LL about the swastika.

According to Jo Yardley she was told when she asked LL that they were not allowed.  

You can also see in the old incident reports that people were told they were not allowed.  

 

Thanks Perrie, you do realize that there were no swastikas involved, right?

...Dres

Yes I no they were not involved in this incident.

I added the info because they were specifically mentioned in the thread and because some people might infer from Amethyst's comment that there is no prohibition against them in SL.

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I despise all politicians, whether they are from the right, left or centre.

Teri

((Or if they practise sexual, racial or religious politics.))

(((Or any other kind of politics.)))

((((I don't much like anybody who wears a uniform either.))))

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The reason why I brought to the vips  was for two reason.   I wanted to know if anyone else was uncormfortable.  i didnt say the names invovled.   I only asked  if anyone else was bother by the uniform.  I also let the two people involvoed know  i was doing so and that my decision would base on the responses.    Thee toher reasons  was most of vips  had been coming to the club for well over a year  so we all knew each other quit well.  So i was comfortable, letting them help make the decision.

Had the magority of the vips   it made them uncoomfortable.  I would have  ask Capt Natzi  to change or come back another night.   To give Capt nazi  credit   he did say  that he would never wear the costume again in my club.

Thank you for your comment

 

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