Have the kids made any difference in SL?

[Mags Indigo]

 

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Cato Badger wrote:

The average reading age of forum participants has gone down to about 15 years.

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I've had a tiring week - I'll improve next week, maybe.

 

[Ciaran Laval]

 

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Mags Indigo wrote:

With all the discussion regarding the arrival of the 16-17 year olds in SL. Has it made any difference on the ground at all?

(Anti Spam Thread)

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I'll tread on eggshells and respond, what do you mean by on the ground?

There are loads of problems due to the kids, events, search, word filters, marketplace listings, none of these are directly due to the kids, I haven't seen any issues from them, it's LL being scared to death of the kids finding inappropriate content and not planning properly that are causing the problems.

[Mags Indigo]

 

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

 I'll tread on eggshells and respond, what do you mean by on the ground?

There are loads of problems due to the kids, events, search, word filters, marketplace listings, none of these are directly due to the kids, I haven't seen any issues from them, it's LL being scared to death of the kids finding inappropriate content and not planning properly that are causing the problems.

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On the ground = actually in SL itself :smileyhappy:I do agree - the kids themselves don't seem to be a bother at all - indeed as so many have said throughout the 'great kid debate' they have always been in SL anyway albeit 'illegally'. It does seem like LL doesn't quite know 'exactly' what they want sometimes - and they sort of move the pieces about hoping to get a better fit without actually thinking it through.

But then - we are but customers and they are the business people! :smileyindifferent:

[Tolya Ugajin]

Kids?  What kids?  Ain't seen a one, unless they are coming on as age verified adults...

[Mags Indigo]

I was thinking the exact same thing Tolya. However I do think the grid is getting blander somehow. I've moved to Zindra to see if I can get that'grown up' feeling back.

[Cali Souther]

Hiya Mags! 

I have not noticed anything change in world ... but I have not been around as long as most of you, so that may make a difference.  I have noticed a big change here in the forums.  I have not been feeling well,  so not around nearly as much...but when I do make it in,  and look about,   it seems a lot less inviting than it used to for some reason.  (shrugs). 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

Before the merge, probably the majority of teens users had a fake adult account. After the merge, the few law-abiding teens got to see more of the grid, but ran into anoying obsticals all over, such as not being able to travel through more than a couple sims before hitting an age restricted barrier. I'd be willing to bet almost all of them have created fake adult accounts now, so they can explore SL more easily. They can keep a teen account to show Mom & Dad, but they use SL with fake adult accounts more often than not.

In the long run, maybe this is what LL wanted all along, since the teens were spending less money on the teen grid than the rest of us were on the main grid. Now they have more land & more items to choose from, much of which costs more than it did on the teen grid. Worried parents can be assured their teens won't see Mature content, "Nudge. nudge, Wink, wink", while litlle Sally & Johny are actually going in as adult alts to make all their naughty purchases & then sending copies to all their teen friends.

[Cabbage Acanthus]

I think the changes in the forums are a pretty clear example of some of the changes of late.  I headed to the moderate and adult lands so things really haven't changed for me inworld, yet.  There have been some small changes.  Some areas have changed their ratings to properly adhere to the rather restrictive ratings system for example.

 

Sooner or later, there will be the next scandal.  We've had them happen ever since this place first went online.  What will happen to SL after that will really tell the tale. 

 

So, to answer your question.  No, the teens have not caused a big impact on my SL experience...yet.  I do think that long term, all of SL will wind up exactly like this forum has.  Whether that is a good or bad thing depends entirely on one's point of view.

(edited to remove a completey redundant sentence)

[Gavin Hird]

Biggest difference is that LL has made search both in-world and in the marketplace even more convoluted in order to "protect" the kids.  

[Mags Indigo]

 

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Cabbage Acanthus wrote:

I think the changes in the forums are a pretty clear example of some of the changes of late.  I headed to the moderate and adult lands so things really haven't changed for me inworld, yet.  There have been some small changes.  Some areas have changed their ratings to properly adhere to the rather restrictive ratings system for example.

<snip> 

So, to answer your question.  No, the teens have not caused a big impact on my SL experience...yet.  I do think that long term, all of SL will wind up exactly like this forum has.  Whether that is a good or bad thing depends entirely on one's point of view.

 

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I agree pretty much with all of this - for me the biggest 'thing' about bringing kids onto the main grid was not so much the impact they themselves would have (despite some of the horror scenarios being put forward) but rather that it denoted a trend by LL - a trend that was distinctly not in favour of adult content. Now I have very little interest in adult content but the thing that really inspired me about SL from my first day was the fact that it was a truly grown up place where anything could happen. Strip clubs sat next to shops and bars and none ever seemed to mind too much as long as people kept to their own space. Now I see a trend towards 'nice' places up for public show, shops that sell 'appearance' but in a nice 'clean' way and adult being marginalized more and more. That will undoubtedly make some people very happy but I'm not sure in the long run if it will help SL to grow.

This week I decided I would move to Zindra - not because I want to do anything X Rated, but I just want to see if I can regain that gritty, grown up feeling that SL had before all of this clean up began. It also struck me as quite funny that when in another thread I referred to myself as a... female gay person ... the word got bleeped out by auto bleeper. It appears that 'kids' are to be sheltered from normal language too - if it even hits as something someone might find offensive. I can't help but wonder does that mean that I am offensive simply by my existance on the forums.

[Maitimo]

 

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Mags Indigo wrote:

  in another thread I referred to myself as a... female gay person ... the word got bleeped out by auto bleeper. It appears that 'kids' are to be sheltered from normal language too - if it even hits as something someone might find offensive. I can't help but wonder does that mean that I am offensive simply by my existance on the forums.

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That's actually... really disturbing, and discriminatory. Especially since that word was bleeped and "gay" isn't... so, what, gay girls are more offensive than gay men?  :smileymad:  I wonder if Californian anti-discrimination laws would cover that?

 

[Cabbage Acanthus]

I agree wholeheartedly.  "Filtering" out (discriminating against) "gay females" is very offensive in itself, as well as being a very disturbing glimpse into the possible future of SL. 

I wish I could say that I surprised and shocked but that's simply not true.  LL has been heading this way for quite some time and this is just a little more of the same.

SL is trying to have it both ways.  It still likes to imply that "romance" and "hooking up" are quite possible (just take a quick look at it's website) but seems to still be actively supressing any expression of that part of the resident's identity down to the point of censoring the basic terms.

It will most likely fail in its attempt neither being truly "kid friendly" or "family safe", as if it ever really had a market there in the first place, and also no longer be a place that is conducive to the freedom of expression that its mostly adult customers came here for in the first place.

Nothing has changed.  LL is still courting a customer base that it never has nor never will have and still actively marginalizing the very folks that keep the lights burning.  It's the same thing they did yesterday and it's aparently their plans for tomorrow as well.

[Mags Indigo]

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Matty Luminos wrote:

That's actually... really disturbing, and discriminatory. Especially since that word was bleeped and "gay" isn't... so, what, gay girls are more offensive than gay men?  :smileymad:  I wonder if Californian anti-discrimination laws would cover that? 

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To be really honest I don't take it that personally, and I'm sure SL or LL have no agendas at all against gay people - either male or female - it is about 'Political Correctness for the kids' gone into overdrive. As Cabbage mentions below LL is trying to be all things to all people - and that's virtually impossible in any area, especially impossible in a virtual world set up to allow people to explore their fantasies.

So back to my original question - the kids have had no real effect at all - but the 'protective layers' put in place to protect LL from any trouble is (imo) having quite an effect in ways that are still subtle and almost invisible (in reality very few as a % of residents use the forums), but I fear over time this will impact more and more on everyday life in SL. I guess all those who argued that the place needed 'cleaning up' are getting their wish. It will be interesting to see if SL will be a viable virtual experience once all the 'filth' is cleaned out though!

 

[Jo Yardley]

Gay?

Wha'ts wrong with gay?

It just means happy.

Or is that just in the 1920s?

[Mags Indigo]

Well I'm fairly happy most of the time - 1920s or not :smileywink:

[Ciaran Laval]

 

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Mags Indigo wrote:

 It also struck me as quite funny that when in another thread I referred to myself as a... female gay person ... the word got bleeped out by auto bleeper. It appears that 'kids' are to be sheltered from normal language too - if it even hits as something someone might find offensive. I can't help but wonder does that mean that I am offensive simply by my existance on the forums.

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There's an episode of Family Guy that the mods and Lindens should watch, it's all about too much censorship, **bleep** Van **bleep** has the **bleep** and **bleep** censored out.

haha and it's censored out here too, if you're wondering what I'm talking about, think Mary Poppins, American actor, known for his awful cockney accent and just like that family guy episode, his name is censored here!

Unfortunately this is another example of the issues that merely allowing the kids to come here has caused and again, it's not the fault of the kids.

 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

@ Jo Yardly

If you don't know what we're talking about, the terms "sodomite" & "tribade" might be more familiar. These were the words commonly used to refer homosexuals back in the "good old days". (I'm being sarcastic of course, since those days weren't always so good.)

[Jo Yardley]

I know, but being from the 1920s, to me gay just means happy, as it should

And being from 1920s Berlin I see every day in our sim that for those people the good old days were very good indeed.

Berlin in the 20s was well known as being a liberal heaven for everyone with a more 'unusual' lifestyle.

Things happened there that would make many modern gay people living in some of the most liberal countries today blush!

[Deltango Vale]

@ Mags OP

Yes, it has made a huge difference. The mistake is to think the difference can be measured as a single event at a specific time. In truth, the difference is represented by the aggregate of incremental changes over the course of three and a half years. Compare Second Life 2006 to Second Life 2011 and the difference is mind-numbingly obvious.

If one drops a frog into boiling water, it immediately jumps out, but if one puts a frog in cold water and heats it slowly, the frog eventually boils to death. Every senior manager and politician on Earth understands and applies this method of incremental change. It is particularly effective if the constituency to be influenced has a short membership cycle - a short collective memory.

Has the arrival of legally underage players made a difference on the ground? Yes, but it's like asking if the 1952 election of Senator Joseph McCarthy or the 1932 election of President Roosevelt made a difference on the ground. The difference wasn't felt on Election Day or even with their first pieces of legislation; the difference was felt by the whole society, for good or ill, after they had been in power for many years. Both failed in their initial attempts to bring about change through brute force; both succeeded through slow, persistent, incremental change.

As a historian, I am alert to change through time, which is why I continually remind people of the history of Second Life. It is not surprising, therefore, that those who have been in Second Life the longest tend to complain the loudest at Linden Lab's campaign to convert Second Life from an adult (grown up) virtual world into an increasingly paternalistic vanilla playground. See A Strategic Assessment of Second Life.

The problem is general, diffuse and nebulous, not only as an aggregate of incremental change over time, but in the way it permeates people's attitudes and beliefs. These fora are a good example. Auto-bleeping specific words is considered almost normal by many new residents, yet it would have been dismissed as lunacy in 2006 not only by residents, but by management itself.

The question, then, is whether the arrival of legally underage players has made a difference to Second Life. The answer to that question is yes, monumental, and, in my opinion, not for the good of either Linden Lab as a company or Second Life as a world. As I said two years ago, "Please remember that Second Life is virtual, voluntary and adult and understand that Disneyfication will buy you at best a temporary advantage before the whole edifice slides gently into banality."

[Persephone Emerald]

 ^ Awesome post, Daltango.  Applause, applause!

[Void Singer]

pretty prose, too bad it's utter rot.

 

the coffin was built long before the nail you want to hang it all on was produced. teens haven't made one iota of difference in SL... and in fact could have easily been incorporated without the ridiculous policy of dumbing down and playskool rating system... teens on the main grid are barely a side effect, let alone a symptom of the policy shift. and certainly not the cause of it.

that was all in place before the teens (actually just 16 and 17yo's) were folded into the main grid, and their presence does absolutely nothing to change any of that.

even without out them here (and that was the original intent), the policies were not going to be undone. even with them here, it's still posible to rework it intelligently (not that it will happen).

[Deltango Vale]

@ Void

Looking back, it seems that Linden Lab intended to bring underage players onto the Main Grid from June 2006 with the introduction of anonymous accounts. That the restriction on alts at the time (5 alts max at US$10 per alt, system crosschecks on email addresses etc.) was relaxed over subsequent years such that there are now no restrictions whatsoever, shows willingness on the part of Linden Lab to open the door to underage players. As everyone knows, unrestricted, anonymous accounts have been the primary conduit onto the Main Grid for underage players for the past two years.

Personally, I believe the strategy to bring underage players onto the Main Grid began in earnest in 2007 and gathered pace throughout 2008 as a result of 1) the moral panic surrounding the ADR news story of May 2007 and 2) VC and Board pressure as a result of SL's initial growth phase. No one can deny that 2007-2008 saw a massive change in the philosophy and direction of Second Life, culminating in the infamous 'Adult' Policy of 2009 followed by the Teen Policy of 2010.

In other words, the strategy of Disneyfication can be traced back at least three years. This is not to say Linden Lab didn't make other policy errors - the Openspace pricing error, for example, had nothing to do with underage players, nor did the VAT mistake - but mixing underage players with an adult resident population in a virtual world that boasted advanced sexual game play ranks up there with opening a pig farm in Saudi Arabia. Rather than close the farm, Linden Lab is trying to convert everyone to bacon.

[Ossian1488303077]

Necroposting, I know... but something has changed.

Now that the Forum Cartel Hangout is in the Destinations Guide or whatever it is, a lot of new people are showing up there, including teens -- even though it's Mature land.

The thing is, teens who actually are mature blend right in. But others... one second they rez, and the very next they start trolling for sex in the most lame and obvious ways.

It usually goes like this (nothing has been omitted, the first line is the first thing the guy says):

 

LongAndComplicatedName5573: Everybody take your clothes off.

Ossian: Oh, you're a teenager, aren't you.

LongAndComplicatedName5573: Yes, I'm 17. Can I have sex with you?

Ossian: Well, no, obviously.

LongAndComplicatedName5573: I mean 16.

Another Adult: How can you get on mature land?

LongAndComplicatedName5573: Why can't I have sex with you?

Ossian: You're a minor.

 

Just for the record, even if they weren't a minor, it wouldn't happen... so don't come to the Hangout and tell me that you're 40.

The Hangout isn't a pickup joint, in any case.

But there is the question: aren't teens supposed to be limited to PG places?

 

[Darrius Gothly]

 

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Ossian wrote:

But there is the question: aren't teens supposed to be limited to PG places? 

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Why yes ... yes, they are. If they're not carefully insulated from the evils and advanced mature subject matter we adults routinely engage in, they might fall susceptible to unwelcome and unclean thoughts ... such as sex.