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FRIDAY QUESTION: Do participants with fewer than 10 posts think before they start threads?


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I always understood that before you participated in something it was wise to read the rules, get a handle on the culture of the activity, and try to establish some sort of understanding of the milieu.

My observational experience of these forums is that if most new posters joined in a game of soccer, they would probably pick the ball up in their hands and throw it.

In the context of online forums, the critical advice I sought and was given was "lurk before you post".

Is it really too much to expect of new participants that they should look before they leap? Is it too difficult to work out that the the Knowledge Base tab might contain information on basic queries that they might have, or even that if they have difficulty searching (possibly because they can't spell accurately) they might identify the Answers tab as being a place  they could get [shock] answers?

And when they decide instead that the Forums are a better place to find knowledge or answers, why do so many identify General DISCUSSIONS as the place to ask questions about their Avatar, Land or Technical matters?

I can only hazard a guess that such naive and annoying behaviour is inspired by the perception that GD is by far the most busy forum, which might mean a speedy response.

Well, I shall continue to give speedy responses to such unthinking and self-misguided interlopers, pointing out that GD is for the expression of opinions (although not necessarily accurate, coherent or friendly ones) and the interactive exchange of viewpoints on issues which may have no deterministic resolution, particularly given the spectrum of (non)emotional and political attitudes which forumites possess.

Do YOU think I am being unreasonable in asking that the forums should be used in an effective manner?

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There’s nothing unreasonable in not wanting chaos; at most, it might be naïve to think that either your more serious efforts to deter it, or either the “speedy” answers as you call them, will have any significant effect. I happen to think that the main cause of the problem you point isn’t so much naïveté or carelessness, as laziness and sheer lack of curiosity. Someone who isn’t mentally lazy researches for quite a while before asking (and when they do, you see that they “did their homework” both in regards to the question itself, and where and how to ask about it), and someone with curiosity actually enjoys doing it, so they have even more of an incentive to “do their homework” first.

I’m inclined to agree, though, that some people might be perfectly aware that GD isn’t the appointed subforum for their question, but it’s the most populated and hence where they’ll find the most audience, so they go for it not caring the least bit if it’s misplaced. I’d frame this as cynicism, perhaps?

Anyway, be it cynicism, laziness and/or lack of curiosity, those are personality traits... flaws, you could say; and next to impossible to fight.

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 I think anyone and everyone can and should post in forums if they want to, if they feel like asking a question that has been answered 100 times before in a knowledge database let them be, if you do not want to answer that questions for the 101 times, just don't look at the post, but do not suggest that just because someone post a silly post, is doing the wrong thing, that's my opinion, seriously, people that posts all the time in the forum sometimes think they have the Director stick, well you don't, me, I like reading and answering and I never make a forum question, because like you said, I go first to where I can find the answer but, man if they want to ask, whatever they want, that's anyone's right

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LlazarusLlong wrote:

I always understood that before you participated in something it was wise to read the rules, get a handle on the culture of the activity, and try to establish some sort of understanding of the milieu.

There are no rules for the Forums, only guidelines.

My observational experience of these forums is that if most new posters joined in a game of soccer, they would probably pick the ball up in their hands and throw it.

In the context of online forums, the critical advice I sought and was given was "lurk before you post".

From who?

Is it really too much to expect of new participants that they should look before they leap?
Look where? New users wont know where to look and LL isn't big on helping anymore.
Is it too difficult to work out that the the Knowledge Base tab might contain information on basic queries that they might have, or even that if they have difficulty searching (possibly because they can't spell accurately) they might identify the Answers tab as being a place  they could get [shock] answers?

If they knew about them.. The Forum is kind of borked right now.

And when they decide instead that the Forums are a better place to find knowledge or answers, why do so many identify General DISCUSSIONS as the place to ask questions about their Avatar, Land or Technical matters?

You can talk about and ask anything in the General Discussions area..

I can only hazard a guess that such naive and annoying behaviour is inspired by the perception that GD is by far the most busy forum, which might mean a speedy response.

If it's that annoying, log out...

Well, I shall continue to give speedy responses to such unthinking and self-misguided interlopers, pointing out that GD is for the expression of opinions (although not necessarily accurate, coherent or friendly ones) and the interactive exchange of viewpoints on issues which may have no deterministic resolution, particularly given the spectrum of (non)emotional and political attitudes which forumites possess.

But you would be wrong. You would be trolling, which is against those guidelines we spoke of earlier.

Do YOU think I am being unreasonable in asking that the forums should be used in an effective manner?

Yes, it is far more reasonable to expect the Forums themselves should be working effectively and not shunt you to the blogs every time you click a button.

 

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I posted the following already in another thread... (now here too just in case you missed it):

 

The BUG in the Forum has been reported on April 4, 2015. Status is still: "Awaiting Review".
Maybe they have more important things at hand instead of fixing the forums?  Grrr...  :smileymad:  :smileysad:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-8953

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LlazarusLlong wrote:

Do YOU think I am being unreasonable in asking that the forums should be used in an effective manner?

This forum has worked well for many years, and also long before you started to participate here. I see it as you have started a Sisifos work with running this "campaign", where people are now allowed to write and not write ... And since you are now asking directly, well, I actually think that your "campaign "destroys forum more than a few misplaced threads.

We can not all be as accurate and knowledgeable as you, and some of us also have English as a foreign language in here to contend with.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


Muletta wrote:
some of us also have English as a foreign language in here to contend with.


Do you not know that LL provides
?

Yes...but not my language, unfortunally, and only a few foreign languages in fact. 

But I do not think, that not speaking or understanding English 100% correct, should keep anyone from participating in the English parts of the forum. Do you?

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Perhaps you could think before posting your unfriendly and tiresome drivel.

The clue is in the title, so I am happy to see a discussion about generally anything, including repeated topics or questions.  I am less happy with supercilious posts pontificating how the plebeian hordes should behave.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

And LlazarusLlong responded:


LlazarusLlong wrote:

I always understood that before you participated in something it was wise to read the rules, get a handle on the culture of the activity, and try to establish some sort of understanding of the milieu.

There are no rules for the Forums, only guidelines.

Tell that to the moderators.

My observational experience of these forums is that if most new posters joined in a game of soccer, they would probably pick the ball up in their hands and throw it.

In the context of online forums, the critical advice I sought and was given was "lurk before you post".

From who?

From people that would probably not have been so impolite as to point out that it should be "From whom?"

Is it really too much to expect of new participants that they should look before they leap?
Look where? New users wont know where to look and LL isn't big on helping anymore.
See below for several suggestions
Is it too difficult to work out that the the Knowledge Base tab might contain information on basic queries that they might have, or even that if they have difficulty searching (possibly because they can't spell accurately) they might identify the Answers tab as being a place  they could get [shock] answers?

If they knew about them.. The Forum is kind of borked right now. 
Not  that much more than it has been for the last five years or so.

And when they decide instead that the Forums are a better place to find knowledge or answers, why do so many identify General DISCUSSIONS as the place to ask questions about their Avatar, Land or Technical matters?

You can talk about and ask anything in the General Discussions area..
Which means that I can talk in what I consider to be inappropriate threads about their being inappropriate threads, and ask if the OPs have actually thought before posting them in GD - without it being considered "trolling" (see below)

I can only hazard a guess that such naive and annoying behaviour is inspired by the perception that GD is by far the most busy forum, which might mean a speedy response.

If it's that annoying, log out...
Sometimes I do, and sometimes I post explaining my annoyance, in an attempt to reduce the cluttering up of GD with inappropriate threads which deters the involvement of potential participants who might offer a more interesting discussion.

Well, I shall continue to give speedy responses to such unthinking and self-misguided interlopers, pointing out that GD is for the expression of opinions (although not necessarily accurate, coherent or friendly ones) and the interactive exchange of viewpoints on issues which may have no deterministic resolution, particularly given the spectrum of (non)emotional and political attitudes which forumites possess.

But you would be wrong.
But above you said "You can talk about and ask anything in the General Discussions area"; you are contradicting yourself.
  You would be trolling, which is against those guidelines we spoke of earlier.
As you have suggested above, it would not be trolling; it would contribute to the general discussion regarding the appropriateness of threads which would be better located elsewhere than GD

Do YOU think I am being unreasonable in asking that the forums should be used in an effective manner?

Yes, it is far more reasonable to expect the Forums themselves should be working effectively and not shunt you to the blogs every time you click a button.
It's not every time for me, just once per session, near its commencement, so I am not overly perturbed.


 

 

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Muletta wrote:

But I do not think, that not speaking or understanding English 100% correct, should keep anyone from participating in the English parts of the forum. Do you?

Of course not. But I do not think, that not speaking or understanding English 100% correct, should keep anyone [sic] else from pointing out when the content of posts is incoherent, ambiguous, misleading, or simply too horrible to read. Also I do not think that it is just the ESLers who should use the spell-checker, proof their content, and consider whether they are posting to the appropriate forum before they are submitted, for similar reasons.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


Muletta wrote:

But I do not think, that not speaking or understanding English 100% correct, should keep anyone from participating in the English parts of the forum. Do you?

Of course not. But I do not think, that not speaking or understanding English 100% correct, should keep anyone [sic] else from pointing out when the content of posts is incoherent, ambiguous, misleading, or simply too horrible to read. Also I do not think that it is just the ESLers who should use the spell-checker, proof their content, and consider whether they are posting to the appropriate forum before they are submitted, for similar reasons.

In open chat or in IM inworld, people talk to each other every day, using their own personal way to express themselves. It seems to work fine, in spite of typos etc. etc., and most people find out to understand what others are trying to tell or say....Why suddenly all these demands of being perfect in a forum?

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Magnus Brody wrote:

Perhaps
you
could think before posting your unfriendly and tiresome drivel.

The clue is in the title, so I am happy to see a
discussion
about
generally
anything, including repeated topics or questions.  I am less happy with supercilious posts pontificating how the plebeian hordes should behave.

As I said in the OP: "GD is for the expression of opinions (although not necessarily accurate, coherent or friendly ones) and the interactive exchange of viewpoints on issues which may have no deterministic resolution, particularly given the spectrum of (non)emotional and political attitudes which forumites possess."

You are entitled to your opinions, you are entitled to express them as part of the discussion here, and you are entitled to be considered inaccurate, supercilious, unfriendly and tiresome by me and just as much of a pleb as those with fewer posts to their name.

I should add that Drake would probably have considered your post as trolling if it were posted under my name; funny that...

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Muletta wrote:

In open chat or in IM inworld, people talk to each other every day, using their own personal way to express themselves. It seems to work fine, in spite of typos etc. etc., and most people find out to understand what others are trying to tell or say....Why suddenly all these demands of being perfect in a forum?

Do you understand the difference between a private conversational dialogue and a published discussion to an unspecified audience?

Apparently not.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


Muletta wrote:

In open chat or in IM inworld, people talk to each other every day, using their own personal way to express themselves. It seems to work fine, in spite of typos etc. etc., and most people find out to understand what others are trying to tell or say....Why suddenly all these demands of being perfect in a forum?

Do you understand the difference between a private conversational dialogue and a published discussion to an unspecified audience?

Apparently not.

I understand the difference between when a person is sitting in an official office and must send out letters and directives which should be flawless ... and when some ordinary people with different backgrounds talk with each other privately in their spare time, in a forum that is only about a common hobby. It could, for that matter, be a forum about fish breeding.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


Muletta wrote:
 It could, for that matter, be a forum about fish breeding.


And in that forum, what would you think of someone who posted about ghoti bearding?

 

To be honest LlazarusLlong - I would much more prefer some posts about ghoti bearding, rather than these "be-perfect-in-this-forum-campaign-posts.

 

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Muletta wrote:

To be honest LlazarusLlong - I would much more prefer some posts about ghoti bearding, rather than these "be-perfect-in-this-forum-campaign-posts.

 

Then you are perfectly at liberty to go and participate in that fish breeding forum.

Close the door when you leave.

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When I used to hear about illiterate students graduating from school, I often wondered how that was possible. But after encountering some of LlazarusLlong's more lusk annunciations, I now realize that not only is it possible for people to graduate without having learned fundamental skills such as reading and writing, but that it's possible for these same people to believe that “the truth”, “the whole truth”, and “nothing but the truth” are three different things. Before I begin talking about specifics, let me just mention that if you think that it is better that a hundred thousand people should perish than that LlazarusLlong should be even slightly inconvenienced then you're suffering from very serious nearsightedness. You're focusing too much on what LlazarusLlong wants you to see and failing to observe many other things of much greater importance such as that its hatchet men have been pivotal in sustaining the narrative that LlazarusLlong's writings surpass most intellectual discourse in terms of the cogency of what they promote and the morality of their implications. Towards this end they toss about inflated figures, dubious “facts”, and exaggerated claims about how LlazarusLlong is beyond reproach.

LlazarusLlong is not interested in what is true and what is false or in what is good and what is evil. In fact, those distinctions have no meaning to it whatsoever. The only thing that has any meaning to LlazarusLlong is solipsism. Why? The answer is almost utterly obvious—this isn't rocket science, you know. The key is that LlazarusLlong once tried convincing me that the more strepitant the communication, the more perspicuous the message. Does it think I was born yesterday? I mean, it seems pretty obvious that LlazarusLlong refers to almost everyone it dislikes as “benighted”. Consequently, when I made some disparaging remarks about LlazarusLlong's imprecations, the choicest word LlazarusLlong found for me was—wait for it—"benighted". My purpose in telling you this is not to highlight LlazarusLlong's limited vocabulary but rather to remind you that Titoism is a plague upon us all, a pox that will likely not be erased in the lifetime of any reader of this letter. To LlazarusLlong, however, it's merely a convenient mechanism for waging a clandestine guerilla war against many basic human rights.

It is not necessary to continue living with the risks induced by LlazarusLlong's aberrant prank phone calls in order reap the cautionary benefits bestowed by the knowledge that we all know, in the world that surrounds us, that there are terrorists and home invaders and drug cartels and carjackers and knockout gamers and rapers and haters and baleful braggarts who scheme to use threats of fiscal harm to coerce perverted, biased skinflints into forming the association in the public's mind between any codices LlazarusLlong disagrees with and the ideas of hate and violence and illegality. What is often easy to forget, however, is that LlazarusLlong's warped dream is starting to come true. Liberties are being killed by attrition. Maoism is being installed by accretion. The only way that we can reverse these vengeful, jackbooted trends is to advance a clear, credible, and effective vision for dealing with our present dilemma and its most effete manifestations. To be precise, it and I disagree about our civic duties. I aver that we must do our utmost to advance freedom in countries strangled by tyranny. LlazarusLlong, on the other hand, warrants that savagism is a beautiful entelechy that makes us whole. All right; this letter is finally drawing to a close. If I have said anything that overstates the truth and indicates an unreasonable impatience, I beg you to forgive me. If I have said anything that understates the truth and indicates my having a patience that allows me to settle for anything less than reporting as best as possible the facts and circumstances surrounding LlazarusLlong's headlong tactics, I beg God to forgive me.

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Also, a search of the forums for the use of "benighted" brings up absolutely no results for its use in any of my posts.

There are three five potential reasons for that.

1. Forums Search is defective

2. You are confusing me with Laskya Claren/Scylla Rhiadra, who has a predilection for the use of that archaic word.

3. You are delusional.

4. You ARE Laskya/Scylla.

5. I used it in a post which subsequently was deleted - but it seems unlikely as I abhor archaisms.

PS Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


Magnus Brody wrote:

Perhaps
you
could think before posting your unfriendly and tiresome drivel.

The clue is in the title, so I am happy to see a
discussion
about
generally
anything, including repeated topics or questions.  I am less happy with supercilious posts pontificating how the plebeian hordes should behave.

As I said in the OP: "GD is for the expression of opinions (although not necessarily accurate, coherent or friendly ones) and the interactive exchange of viewpoints on issues which may have no deterministic resolution, particularly given the spectrum of (non)emotional and political attitudes which forumites possess."

You are entitled to your opinions, you are entitled to express them as part of the discussion here, and you are entitled to be considered inaccurate, supercilious, unfriendly and tiresome by me and just as much of a pleb as those with fewer posts to their name.

I should add that Drake would probably have considered your post as trolling if it were posted under my name; funny that...

So we agree, excellent!  In so much, a discussion here can be about generally anything, including yours and any other person, and we're both entitled to our opinions.

I am pleased that you can now see it is entirely unreasonable to expect those of less knowledge than yourself, to follow rules that aren't posted anywhere.

Carrry on posting, re-ask your questions, cover topics covered before - it's allowed!

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