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Secondlife #2 - 2015 Beta


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TheDamienThorn wrote:

Who said you will have to start over. It has been said many times in this thread that they are not deleting the old platfoem and players can stay there if they want.

Not only that, they're doing more to upgrade god old Second Life these days than ever before. Linde Lab clearly has no plans of giving up SL.

I can only read the minds of a few of the Lindens and none of the LL owners so it's hard to say exactly what their future plans are. But what they probably should do is gradually merge the two virtual worlds. That poses huge technical, practical and legal problems but none of them are unsolvable and it should be possible if they take their time and take on the challenges one by one.

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ChinRey wrote:


TheDamienThorn wrote:

Who said you will have to start over. It has been said many times in this thread that they are not deleting the old platfoem and players can stay there if they want.

Not only that, they're doing more to upgrade god old Second Life these days than ever before. Linde Lab clearly has no plans of giving up SL.

</snip>

"Upgrade" is a questionable definition for what they are doing.

And I'm of the opinion that no project of any consequence will be approved for development in SL unless it benefits Project Sansar.  So conversely any "upgrades" to SL are only a side effect of Sansar.

Things that are NOT being worked on may be speaking louder than things that are. 

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What is funny is they may be doing some things they should have done years ago with the standard SL. The whole body template was done like crap in the first place. Things like texturing one arm for both, a deformed male body with sunk in female breasts made it impossible for anyone to make a shirt to fit a male correctly on the shoulders etc using textures... This is stuff before mesh (and extremely basic) that they should have fixed. 

I am conflicted between what will happen. I am excited... yes and nervous yes. But I think It can be a good move to wait and see what will actually be before people get in a mess about it.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

"Upgrade" is a questionable definition for what they are doing.


What is relevant in this particular context is simply that they are trying. They wouldn't even do that if they were planning to abandon Second Life.

 


Perrie Juran wrote:


ChinRey wrote
And I'm of the opinion that no project of any consequence will be approved for development in SL unless it benefits Project Sansar.  So conversely any "upgrades" to SL are only a side effect of Sansar.

If I was in charge of Linden Lab, I certainly would have given higher priority to development that would benefit both Second Life and Sansar. That only makes sense.


Perrie Juran wrote:

Things that are NOT being worked on may be speaking louder than things that are. 

You want them to fix all the problems caused by years of negelcting and misinterpreting their customers over night?

Yeah, that would have been nice. But if we can add a little bit of realism - just for the sake of argument - the only way to get anywhere at all is to take it one step at a time.

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TheDamienThorn wrote:

Things like texturing one arm for both, a deformed male body with sunk in female breasts made it impossible for anyone to make a shirt to fit a male correctly on the shoulders etc using textures...

Not to mention those spades they use for hands and feet!

But if you think the Second Life avatar is bad, you should have seen what they have to live with elsewhere!

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Well I wouldn't saying they are trying with "upgrades" at all. What they do have is a platform upon which they can prototype stuff with and have that tested by an existing active user base.

 

That's pretty normal development cycle really.

 

But yes, it's obvious that anything being done is really only to the benefit of SL if as a result of dev work for elsewhere, the outcome can be reused.

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ChinRey wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

"Upgrade" is a questionable definition for what they are doing.

What is relevant in this particular context is simply that they are trying. They wouldn't even do that if they were planning to abandon Second Life.

 

Perrie Juran wrote:


ChinRey wrote
And I'm of the opinion that no project of any consequence will be approved for development in SL unless it benefits Project Sansar.  So conversely any "upgrades" to SL are only a side effect of Sansar.

If I was in charge of Linden Lab, I certainly would have given higher priority to development that would benefit both Second Life and Sansar. That only makes sense.

Perrie Juran wrote:

Things that are NOT being worked on may be speaking louder than things that are. 

You want them to fix all the problems caused by years of negelcting and misinterpreting their customers over night?

Yeah, that would have been nice. But if we can add a little bit of realism - just for the sake of argument - the only way to get anywhere at all is to take it one step at a time.

I'm certainly not against improvements.  But improvements sometimes come with a cost attched.  I used to run Second Life on THIS..  No way that could I could do that today.

And today the Devs have to deal with decisions that were made back in 2004.  The corrections to the physics model and the avatar should have been done then when people first asked about/pointed out the problems.

Now the risk of breaking too much content has probably become astronomical.  But some 3D modelers have told me that it's no where as bad as it has sometimes been made out to be..

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm certainly not against improvements.  But improvements sometimes come with a cost attched.  I used to run Second Life on 
.  No way that could I could do that today.

Yes, and unfortunately that's a field where LL has been slipping recently. Client side lag may well be the most important factor that keeps people away from Second Life and Linden Lab still doesn't seem to take that problem seriously enough. Not just when it comes to SL. From what we have heard abut Sansar so far, there is no indication they're trying to solve it there, quite the contrary.

You can't expect to run a modern virtual world on a ten year old computer of course but the client side weight of Second Life is increasing faster than the power increase in personal computers. I got a very good example of that this spring. I went down into the sewers at Keswick, a build I hadn't been to since I made it almost two years ago and was really surprised when I discovered my fairly new desktop computer had problems rendering a scene my geriatric five year (by then) old MacBook Pro handled without any problems back in the summer of 2013. The scene hadn't changed at all, it was the overhead added since then that caused the problems.

That being said, do you remember the early 2014? Now that's what I call laggy. Today you have to go to the most mesh body infested places (the kind of places any civilized human and martian know to avoid) to even experience a hint of the lag you got everywhere in SL back then. I'm not sure what LL did to fix it but they did. Html pipelining and CDN probably helped a lot but strangely, the viewer upgrade that put an end to the misery was all about library updates.

They have been slipping since then, I can't deny that. It's only now they've started to do something about the mesh avatar problem and so far they've only come up with a DOA solution. It may take a while before they have something to offer that actually works. As for the general growing lag issue, they seem to have forgotten about it again. :(

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ChinRey wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm certainly not against improvements.  But improvements sometimes come with a cost attched.  I used to run Second Life on 
.  No way that could I could do that today.

Yes, and unfortunately that's a field where LL has been slipping recently. Client side lag may well be the most important factor that keeps people away from Second Life and Linden Lab still doesn't seem to take that problem seriously enough. Not just when it comes to SL. From what we have heard abut Sansar so far, there is no indication they're trying to solve it there, quite the contrary.

You can't expect to run a modern virtual world on a ten year old computer of course but the client side weight of Second Life is increasing faster than the power increase in personal computers. I got a very good example of that this spring. I went down into the sewers at Keswick, a build I hadn't been to since I made it almost two years ago and was really surprised when I discovered my fairly new desktop computer had problems rendering a scene my geriatric five year (by then) old MacBook Pro handled without any problems back in the summer of 2013. The scene hadn't changed at all, it was the overhead added since then that caused the problems.

That being said, do you remember the early 2014? Now
that's
what I call laggy. Today you have to go to the most mesh body infested places (the kind of places any civilized human and martian know to avoid) to even experience a hint of the lag you got everywhere in SL back then. I'm not sure what LL did to fix it but they did. Html pipelining and CDN probably helped a lot but strangely, the viewer upgrade that put an end to the misery was all about library updates.

They have been slipping since then, I can't deny that. It's only now they've started to do something about the mesh avatar problem and so far they've only come up with a DOA solution. It may take a while before they have something to offer that actually works. As for the general growing lag issue, they seem to have forgotten about it again.
:(

I knew that was a slightly extreme example but it works well to illustrate the point.

And I would agree with you, lag is the most detrimental thing to SL.  That and the learning curve.

There have been many improvements.  But sometimes just when you think it is safe to go back in the water.................................

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

As a newbie to SL and a mesh content creator I do not know how to digest all of this. If it is true that Linden Lab will continue to let Second Life operate as is, then that leaves little to worry about. I do not have to be concerned about the hundreds of dollars I have spent on content and I can continue to see sales of my products for this platform. I would imagine that It is not in the best interest of LL to shut down SL in favor of a new grid otherwise it would upset a lot of people and cause a lot of harm to their business.

Linden labs has every right to create a new closed sourced platform/world. That does NOT mean consumers MUST adopt it. Closed source DOES NOT MEAN more security, otherwise we would not have to worry about trojans in Microsoft Windows right? Closed source does not stop hackers from stealing content. It only prevents third parties from bringing new viewer features to the table and it prevents innovators from improving the software or forking it. At present there isn't a 64bit official SL viewer for my favorite OS (Linux) yet Firestorm offers a feature rich viewer in 64bit which runs very well on my distribution. That said, I would not even be using Second Life if it were not for third party viewers. There needs to be a way to keep the community in the loop.

At the end of the day I think the new platform will be a hard sell on existing linden residents. My computer I am using is not even capable of running SL at the highest possible quality without stuttering a little and that is one thing which is attractive; people do not have to upgrade their hardware to enjoy these virtual worlds. My computer is not a race winner, but I know a lot of people who use SL with systems that are a lot older than mine...

LL will need a way to convince people to abandon their present SL investments to move onto the new platform. I do not have a clue as to how they will achieve this but I am willing to bet they might need to offer more than keeping your screen name, friends list and linden dollar accounts. Several grids claim they can offer "more" yet when we look at them it is far from the truth. Providers such as Kitely, Inworlz or OSGrid cannot succeed because they do not have an audience and as such the content developers will not make products for those grids because the consumer base is not there!

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Bentleywolves wrote:

I would really love to bring all my stuff from SL to SL2 cause of how much time and money i spent on SL it would heart break me to see that im unable to do that, do to the fact that i spent over a couple grand on sl :c

There is no SL2 in existance. Sansar won't be a clone of SL with better technology.

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  Here is My tunderstanding and take on the whole scenerio.  I gave been in SL for almost 6 yrs.and have spent more than my share of RL mobey on lindens.

  First off.thr VR headset situation..not everyone will be able to afford it.  In the long run, you will need a moore powerful machine to handle VR heasdsets.  So,in essence, the general "regular Joe" public wotn bne able to afford to tap into

VR headsey world.  Personally I recall reading someplace that in the bew platform..both VR users and regular users will

be able to interact with each other.  This being said, everyone has said for a long time that SL needs to upgrade their graphics engine...the Sl game engine is way out-dated, and thats all true.. this NEW platform is what is needed tor SL

to take it to the next level.  We all need to keep doing what we arr doing to help SL thrive. when the new platform arrives,

do all we can to enbrace it!!  THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!  KEEP LOOKING FORWARD WITH OPTIMISM AND EXCITEMENT

 

“The fact that all of this was happening in virtual space made no difference. Being virtually killed by virtual laser in virtual space is just as effective as the real thing, because you are as dead as you think you are.”
― Douglas Adams,Mostly Harmless

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Airikk Ellisson wrote:

.. this NEW platform is what is needed tor SL

to take it to the next level.

you didn't really read all discussions i think...

there is no SL 2 beta , there will be no SL 2 beta and there will be no SL2 at all in any meaning.

 

it is called project Sansar, and will not be a new SL, SL will stay here as it is, and will get updates and new things...

project Sansar is aiming at a total different user base.

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Airikk Ellisson wrote:

This being said, everyone has said for a long time that SL needs to upgrade their graphics engine...the Sl game engine is way out-dated, and thats all true.. this NEW platform is what is needed tor SL

Yes but no.

That is, yes, the SL software is way outdated an needs to be seriously upgraded.

But no, the new platform is not what is needed for SL. In fact, Second Life as we know it can not possibly exist on the Sansar platform as we know it so far.

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Airikk Ellisson wrote:THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!  KEEP LOOKING FORWARD WITH OPTIMISM AND EXCITEMENT

As others have pointed out, Sansar is really not for us. So that's the thing: for those who enjoy (or enjoyed) Second Life, the most optimistic hope is for Sansar to fail quickly, before it squanders all of LL's resources, so we can get past this distraction and finally get on with fixing Second Life's shortcomings.

On the other hand, for those who have never experienced Second Life (or hated it), Sansar might turn out to be great, once it's been out for a few years. 

It's theoretically possible that Sansar and Second Life could coexist, at least long enough for Sansar to adequately approach SL's functionality and for somebody to implement an acceptable substitute for SL inside Sansar.

But realistically, most new projects fail -- just a fact of life -- and most likely Sansar will fail, too, and then it becomes a question of whether it will have taken SL down with it.

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Airikk Ellisson wrote:

  Here is My tunderstanding and take on the whole scenerio.  I gave been in SL for almost 6 yrs.and have spent more than my share of RL mobey on lindens.

  First off.thr VR headset situation..not everyone will be able to afford it.  In the long run, you will need a moore powerful machine to handle VR heasdsets.  So,in essence, the general "regular Joe" public wotn bne able to afford to tap into

VR headsey world.  Personally I recall reading someplace that in the bew platform..both VR users and regular users will

be able to interact with each other.  This being said, everyone has said for a long time that SL needs to upgrade their graphics engine...the Sl game engine is way out-dated, and thats all true.. this NEW platform is what is needed tor SL

to take it to the next level.  We all need to keep doing what we arr doing to help SL thrive. when the new platform arrives,

do all we can to enbrace it!!  THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!  KEEP LOOKING FORWARD WITH OPTIMISM AND EXCITEMENT

 

“The fact that all of this was happening in virtual space made no difference. Being virtually killed by virtual laser in virtual space is just as effective as the real thing, because you are as dead as you think you are.”

― Douglas Adams,Mostly Harmless

Oh, please...learn to read, before you get exicted about **bleep** that isn't going to happen.

Sansar is NOT a new Second Life. It is NOT an update. It is NOT a new graphic engine. It is NOT connected to Second Life.

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mikka Luik wrote:

"....somebody to implement an acceptable substitute for SL inside Sansar"
yes and the Lab would be the one to do that
. Even on a one quarter size semi POC scale
:)

Why should Linden Lab be the one to do it? Isn't Second Life supposed to be "Our world, our imagination"?

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