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Aubry Brinner

The Customer is ALWAYS wrong.

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If you've ever been ejected or even banned from a sim, then I know your pain. If it was your attitude, clothing attire, or spamming that got you the kick, the shame is always the same. But what if you got a ejection without even so much as a warning, or a "please stop what you're doing" right beforehand? As a former General Manager of a short lived french club, one thing was for sure, we always spoke to the patrons first, to make sure they were violating club rules. But as time goes by in Second Life, club owner and managers have gotten an increased power trip over having the capability to kick you out of the premises. It really is the case when I say, "the customer is always wrong." My personal experience brings me back to Ambrosia. I'd been a patron of that club for a few months and enjoyed the atmosphere and DJ selection. But on one fateful night, after "heckling" the DJ for a mere two minutes and saying 3 things, I get an ejection. No questions asked, no warning, nothing. If this has ever happened to you, then you know how it feels. Try and get your way back in and what happens? The staff refuses to hear. In other words, they are power tripping. Having been in that business myself i understood that people who really cause a disrruption should be removed, but without a warning? Something needed to be done. 

In these instances the customer is always wrong, for I tried to explain to Ambrosia's club owner that the whole situation could've been handled better. Incredible enough, the power trip even reached the owner, who had nothing to say about the issue, mocked me, went to far as to ban me, and muted me after finishing our discussion. I hope that in hearing this, you agree that no one should be treated in that manner. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced this type of injustice, but I feel like it goes unnoticed in the public. No matter who you talk to, if they're a person of power, you are wrong, they are right. For once I would like to meet a club owner that takes constructive criticism from their patrons instead of belittling them without so much as a consideration that maybe, just maybe, their staff did handle the situation wrong. 
If you've ever been ejected or even banned from a sim, then I know your pain. If it was your attitude, clothing attire, or spamming that got you the kick, the shame is always the same. But what if you got a ejection without even so much as a warning, or a "please stop what you're doing" right beforehand? As a former General Manager of a short lived french club, one thing was for sure, we always spoke to the patrons first, to make sure they were violating club rules. But as time goes by in Second Life, club owner and managers have gotten an increased power trip over having the capability to kick you out of the premises. It really is the case when I say, "the customer is always wrong." My personal experience brings me back to Ambrosia. I'd been a patron of that club for a few months and enjoyed the atmosphere and DJ selection. But on one fateful night, after "heckling" the DJ for a mere two minutes and saying 3 things, I get an ejection. No questions asked, no warning, nothing. If this has ever happened to you, then you know how it feels. Try and get your way back in and what happens? The staff refuses to hear. In other words, they are power tripping. Having been in that business myself i understood that people who really cause a disrruption should be removed, but without a warning? Something needed to be done. In these instances the customer is always wrong, for I tried to explain to Ambrosia's club owner that the whole situation could've been handled better. Incredible enough, the power trip even reached the owner, who had nothing to say about the issue, mocked me, went to far as to ban me, and muted me after finishing our discussion. I hope that in hearing this, you agree that no one should be treated in that manner. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's experienced this type of injustice, but I feel like it goes unnoticed in the public. No matter who you talk to, if they're a person of power, you are wrong, they are right. For once I would like to meet a club owner that takes constructive criticism from their patrons instead of belittling them without so much as a consideration that maybe, just maybe, their staff did handle the situation wrong. This is totally unfair and it needs to be brought to light.

 

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Not having the other side of the story, I cannot say one way or the other that one party or the other is at fault.  But I don't know many club owners or managers who are eager to throw out customers or ban people without reason. It tends to kill your club if you do so too often.

I have, however, noticed a number of new residents arrive thinking that SL is no different than WoW, and that they can shoot anyone and insult anyone and be as offensive as they want to be because it's just a video game.  They don't grasp (or don't care) that there are people on the other side of the avatars here -- no NPCs anywhere in SL. You say you were heckling the DJ -- clearly you and only you thought it was funny what you were doing.

I would suggest you just find a different hang out and get to know people before you start insulting them.  You may think heckling the DJ is funny.  Shoot, I heckle the ones in our clubs, and they heckle me when I DJ as well.  But that's because we are all friends and my friends get to poke some good natured fun at me.  Total strangers coming in and complaining repeatedly that my music sucks won't be viewed very positively by the staff, or the regulars at the club.  Just as you would be offended if I came up to you out of the blue and started insulting you.  There is a difference between friends ribbing one another and a stranger being nasty to someone they don't know. 

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Sure, I totally agree. Had I been insulting someone and their music, that would be totally fine. However, when all the comments went along the lines of "waiting for the voiceover...I'm exercising my captain rights (as I wear a captain costume)" etc, it's a little uncalled for. Also, had I KNOWN there was a problem, I would've much appreciated someone from that venue to let me know about it instead of throwing the boot. There is nothing wrong about removing someone who they consider as troublesome. But when it is done without so much as a heads up, that's when it became an issue. Like you said, I didn't know the people. Well, they don't know me. They don't know my situation, my reasons. This all could have been avoided had I been asked to stop, etc etc. 

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Why is it ok to heckle a DJ for two minutes?

These clubs don't need customers so badly that they can tolerate disruptive behaviour. There are a zillion clubs in SL. Move on to another one.

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I've had 3 bans, but, they were all personal issues between me and the land owner.  (^_^)

On the other hand, I've dished out a ton of bans while supporting NCI.  Sometimes with a warning.  Sometimes without. It's all conditional and we have documented guidelines to take into consideration.  (^_^)

Though, on my land, it's my rules.  I owe you nothing.  If I think your avatar smells funny, you'll hit my ban list.  Do so much as annoy me and expect to get a flying lesson via eject.  Though... You'll find it's quite tough to annoy me. (^_^)y

 

 

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Bans are entirely at the whim of the management. Don't know whether yours was well handled or not. But I must say I cannot think of even one tiny reason (other than friend-to-friend teasing) for heckling a DJ. Or a musician. Or public speaker or anything else. Heckling as a form of communication escapes me.

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I've only been banned once over a disagreement with the manager of another sim. The ban was eventually lifted after we both had some time to cool off. I generally try to behave such that it's not an issue.

On the other hand, I've had to issue a number of bans from a sim I help staff. Most of the time, people get IM'd first to be told what the problem is so they can correct it, if that doesn't work, they are sent home, again with an IM as to why and what has to be changed for them to be welcome. If they come back and continue doing whatever it was that got them sent home, then they get banned for some amount of time. This obviously doesn't apply to outright griefers (rare) or things that blatantly violate the SL TOS. Those get immediate bans + ARs.

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Aubry, I am a DJ at Ambrosia Dance Club.  While I have no first-hand knowledge of your ejection, I can say that the rules of the club are clearly posted both on the website and in the covenant in Land.  To quote the pertinent rule:

*******

16.   Interaction with Staff and Patrons

         a. Harassment, disrespect or heckling of the staff, DJs and guests in open chat or IM is strictly forbidden and will result in ejection and possible banning from the sim. See Clause 2 for the appeal procedure. 

******

As a former club manager, you know that the club sets the rules for the benefit of staff and patrons.  Ambrosia Dance Club has been inworld for over four years.  It is highly successful, in part, because of the rules set by the manager/owner. 

Next time you find yourself in a club and have something to raise with the DJ or staff, you might wish to do that in a polite IM.  You are likely to get much better results.

 

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In my experience the 'customer' is very often wrong.

People visit the sim, they get all the rules, notecards, warnings, etc.

But they are not patient enough to wait for warning signs to rez, to read the rules, etc.

They just run in and then get upset if you even dare contact them about the sims actually having rules.

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Ishtara wrote:

tl;dr. If you want anyone to read that wall of text, you should add some line breaks.

... or hope most people aren't too lazy to read 32 lines of text

 

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Ziggy21 Slade wrote:

 

Ishtara wrote:

tl;dr. If you want anyone to read that wall of text, you should add some line breaks.

... or hope most people aren't too lazy to read 32 lines of text

 

80% of the popuation will not read past 6 to 8 lines.  You have to grab their attention and state what you want to let them know in the first 4 lines if possible.  You may then use extra paragraphs to explain your point but each must also be under 6 lines if you want them read.  It works this way for forums, business emails and christmas letters to your family.

 

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Feedback for the OP:  Next time you post, you might wish to scan your post before you hit the 'Post' button.  Both gigantic paragraphs are nearly the same.  It looks like the second one was meant to be the final. 

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Venus Petrov wrote:

16.   Interaction with Staff and Patrons

 

         a. Harassment, disrespect or heckling of the staff, DJs and guests in open chat or IM is strictly forbidden

To say nothing of being incredibly rude. 

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I didn't read your text cause it was too much, but I did read a few words necessary to know that you were supposedly ban unfairly from a club or place, I hope all works out, places have rules as some other posters said, and some clubs/ places do not even have traffic enough to have rules, and they still have rules, people likes rules, and of course if you want to be in a place and enjoy it, sometimes you have to abide by the rules, even when some of them are nonsense

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SID Riler wrote:

I didn't read your text cause it was too much, but I did read a few words necessary to know that you were supposedly ban unfairly from a club or place, I hope all works out, places have rules as some other posters said, and some clubs/ places do not even have traffic enough to have rules, and they still have rules, people likes rules, and of course if you want to be in a place and enjoy it, sometimes you have to abide by the rules, even when some of them are nonsense

In real life if a person becomes agressive and may be physical, you call the police, security, etc, even if your place doesn't state you might. In SL, fortunatly a person cannot become physically agressive (other than may be grieffing), you don't have police either, but you have the tools to excersise security actions.

 The other difference with RL, is that perhaps if a customer sais something inappropiate, we might try to remain calm avoiding a worse situation with agression, violence scalating (the police or security delays in arriving, it might be obvious when you go to the phone and call them) which doesn't mean it is aprooved, or accepted, because "the customer is always right", in SL the system allows a faster way around the problem.

And finally, something VERY important, almost all of us come to SL as a relief, a hobby, our little private paradise outside the noisy, agressive real world, and we are not to tollerate agressions from strangers, being verbally agressive in SL is sort of the same as being physically agressive in RL. If you feel like needing to release that negative energy you can always join some roleplay and be the "bad" in it, but a DJ in a club is there to share some fun, some relax time, and what's most important to take in accounting, most SL DJs, singers, actors, content creators, are mostly something else in RL, they are amateurs, and their efforts for doing something, share something that they might never share in RL deserves to be always respected and appreciated, if you don't like it, then don't tip them or buy their contents, if you have a constructive critics to say send an IM, they might well always appreciate it in order to learn, but don't heckle them in public, it is rude and might hurt their feelings.

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ArsHarmonia wrote: if you don't like it, then don't tip them or buy their contents, if you have a constructive critics to say send an IM, they might well always appreciate it in order to learn, but don't heckle them in public, it is rude and might hurt their feelings.

 

While heckling can be considered rude, nothing anyone has ever said to me while I DJ'ed hurt my feelings.  I know that I am an amateur.  I do it to have fun and, hopefully, others have fun, too.  In the vast majority of cases, the heckler makes him/herself look bad, not the DJ.

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If you violate the rules of a sim, you will most likely be banned. 

If you didn't read the rules, it's your own fault for not reading the rules. 

You can call it power tripping all you want, but it appears that you broke the rules and are now talking smack about the staff at that club for banning you for breaking the rules. 

Cheers! 

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Aubry Brinner wrote:

This all could have been avoided had I been asked to stop, etc etc. 

Nobody should have to ask you to stop. You should've exercized a little common courtesy beforehand and not started anything worth having stopped. The problem, it seems from reading what you wrote, is showboating, and doing it at a staff members expense. You yourself say you didn't know this DJ, so what made you think it was kosher to jab, rib, and heckle the person like their known friends do when they weren't a known "friendly" to you? The only explanation other than it being a really poor decision would be to smart off to try to impress the crowd. Nobody with more than half a brain gets impressed by that sort of thing, and least impressed of all is the club staff member that's the unwilling butt of your jokes. Duh... of course you got kicked. I don't know of any clubs that wouldn't kick someone for lipping off at a staff members expense.

 

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I got kicked and banned from a sim for no reason.  Didn't really do anything wrong; I guess I got kicked for being a furry avatar. So I got on an alt and try to I asked the sim owner why, but apparently he had redzone, so I got banned again the minute I came back.  :smileyvery-happy:  So I strugged and move.  I'm not going to get upset about it, since there are many other sims in second life.

In other words, don't get too upset about these things.  Some sim owners can be jerks, but there a lot of other decent sims out there.

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I think (hope) that most club owners understand the difference between someone making a mistake and someone who just doesn't care. Even though I whine about people not reading rules, I myself have done things that were a little "off" because I didn't read a notecard or just assumed I'd be OK in a sim similar to another I spent time in. To outright eject or ban everyone who's ever imperfect is probably bad business, but if someone's behavior clearly indicates that they don't care about "appropriate" behavior in that location, I don't think you need to bother with an explanation.

I have to wonder what "heckling the DJ" means here, though.

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Relm Foxdale wrote:

I have to wonder what "heckling the DJ" means here, though.

If you are referencing the rule that I quoted from the club from which she was banned, it is (like most things) left to the interpretation of the staff that are witness to it.  But, my experience is that staff do not eject/ban people just for the heck of it.

 

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