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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

So your position is that people should be subjected to a political litmus test when considering things they do completely unrelated to those beliefs?

As a sponsored representative of LL Despres is not in a position to espouse views which would serve to give anyone the impression that there are those who are less equal than, or entitled to the same benefits or respect than those of his definition of what is acceptable.

It is an explicit conflict of interest and is self defeating to his overall purpose.Which is to attract new members. Regardless of their politics.

Most professional/corporate codes of ethics require the membership to adhere to their tenets whether they are actually performing their function or simply out playing golf, having dinner at a restaurant or engaging in any other activity. If the company has or relies on their public image then they need to protect their brand and cannot have their employees bringing it into disrepute by their extracurricular activities. It's bad for business. Hence, many have morals clauses.

You cannot be a school teacher and also be a member of the Klan.

(swap in any reprehensible belief system you like into that example, godwin it if you like)

 

(minor eta).

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

Gee, maybe they should sponsor a video maker who puts together a series of videos about people who do a wide variety of interesting things in SL.

Oh wait, they have...


Oh christ!

Yes, that weasel Despres is a fine ambassador.

https://my.secondlife.com/draxtor.despres/posts/54960e85a8014171be0000ec

Be sure to checkout the link he posted for 'context'.


 I complied with your request to check out the link.   The link he posted for context was an article by Steven W Thrasher, a weekly columnist for The Guardian newspaper in the UK, about how he felt, as a Black man, covering a pro-Police rally during the "I can't breath" protests following the decision not to indict NYPD officer David Panatleo for causing the death of Eric Garner.   

He felt frightened and threatened, he says, and very conflicted about whether to respond to racist chanting or maintain a professional distance:


Here I was, being “protected” by the NYPD on duty, surrounded by angry, white, retired and off-duty cops and their supporters. Who hated the press and, it seemed, Black people — and I was in the middle of them. I wanted them to talk, and I wanted to hear what they had to say, so I didn’t say much back, even to the man trying to convince me that if Garner had been pliant enough, he wouldn’t have died.

http://contexts.org/blog/i-can-breathe-and-the-occasional-fear-of-covering-protests/

What do you say is so objectionable about the article that someone should be condemned for linking to it in an apparently approving way?

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Derek Torvalar wrote:

Gee, maybe they should sponsor a video maker who puts together a series of videos about people who do a wide variety of interesting things in SL.

Oh wait, they have...


Oh christ!

Yes, that weasel Despres is a fine ambassador.

Be sure to checkout the link he posted for 'context'.

 I complied with your request to check out the link.   The link he posted for context was an article by Steven W Thrasher, a weekly columnist for The Guardian newspaper in the UK, about how he felt, as a Black man, covering a pro-Police rally during the "I can't breath" protests following the decision not to indict NYPD officer David Panatleo for causing the death of Eric Garner.   

He felt frightened and threatened, he says, and very conflicted about whether to respond to racist chanting or maintain a professional distance:

Here I was, being “protected” by the NYPD on duty, surrounded by angry, white, retired and off-duty cops and their supporters. Who hated the press and, it seemed, Black people — and I was in the middle of them. I wanted them to talk, and I wanted to hear what they had to say, so I didn’t say much back, even to the man trying to convince me that if Garner had been pliant enough, he wouldn’t have died.

http://contexts.org/blog/i-can-breathe-and-the-occasional-fear-of-covering-protests/

What do you say is so objectionable about the article that someone should be condemned for linking to it in an apparently approving way?

 

The timing was inappropriate. It demonstrated a lack of respect for what had just occurred to the NYPD officers their families, and.co-workers. Personally, I found it offensive that he would choose that particular day to make that potentially inflammatory post. 

Especially when taken in context with some of the other posts he was responsible for concerning the shooting in Mo.

In his capacity as a LL representative he should not be drawing attention to himself and his questionable political agenda.

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Here is the history of Linden Lab's sexual policy. Philip was involved in countering accusations of child pornography in Second Life (2007). The policy of rezoning the grid was formulated in 2009, after he left. Regarding SL Marketplace, I supported it at the time - and still do - but I also strongly encouraged Linden Lab to reduce land fees (to keep merchants inworld and/or replace them with residential landowners). By refusing to reduce land fees, Linden Lab encouraged merchants to close their inworld stores. Meanwhile, residential landowners were downsizing or leaving entirely. Therefore, while SL Marketplace was a good idea, it was poorly planned and executed.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

So your position is that people should be subjected to a political litmus test when considering things they do completely unrelated to those beliefs?

I think you missed the point, Theresa.  It's not Drax's political views that are at question, it's his attempts at vilifying anyone who disagrees with his political views that are so very troublesome.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

So your position is that people should be subjected to a political litmus test when considering things they do completely unrelated to those beliefs?

I think you missed the point, Theresa.  It's not Drax's political views that are at question, it's his attempts at vilifying anyone who disagrees with his political views that are so very troublesome.

...Dres

Deltango was stating that Linden Lab needed to do a certain type of promotion.

I pointed out where they did in some cases exactly what he asked for through a Second Life resident.

Who is apparently obnoxious, at least in certain people's opinion.

The videos are actually pretty good though.

Now, should they have been rebranded as being by Videographer Linden, similar to how Moles are incognito residents? They'd be the same thing, by the same person though.

Or should any possible contributor be vetted on his or her obnoxiousness? In Second Life? Seriously? The number of residents who'd pass muster would fit in a small travel trailer, with breathing room.

Or should they bring in someone from the outside? But this is "our world, our imagination", isn't it? What do you think the comments about bringing in "an outsider who doesn't understand Second Life" be like?

Or should they just throw up their hands and say, "There's no making these whackadoodles happy so why bother?"

 

 

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I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there), and I think we can be pretty certain that none of the target audience for these promotional videos will have heard of either Drax or his political views, either.

Maybe it's different in the USA, but as a Brit I'm really not aware, that, for example, an advert for a particular product is made by M&C Saachi, a British advertising agency founded and part owned by Maurice Saachi, the present Chairman of the Conservative Party, and even if I were, I wouldn't take a particular company's decision to have M&C Saachi handle its advertising as any sort of endorsement of  Maurice Saachi's political views.

I just don't see the force of objections to Drax's videos, unless it's simply, "LL can do nothing right."

 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

So your position is that people should be subjected to a political litmus test when considering things they do completely unrelated to those beliefs?

I think you missed the point, Theresa.  It's not Drax's political views that are at question, it's his attempts at vilifying anyone who disagrees with his political views that are so very troublesome.

...Dres

Deltango was stating that Linden Lab needed to do a certain type of promotion.

I pointed out where they did in some cases exactly what he asked for through a Second Life resident.

Who is apparently obnoxious, at least in certain people's opinion.

The videos are actually pretty good though.

Now, should they have been rebranded as being by Videographer Linden, similar to how Moles are incognito residents? They'd be the same thing, by the same person though.

Or should any possible contributor be vetted on his or her obnoxiousness? In Second Life? Seriously? The number of residents who'd pass muster would fit in a small travel trailer, with breathing room.

Or should they bring in someone from the outside? But this is "our world, our imagination", isn't it? What do you think the comments about bringing in "an outsider who doesn't understand Second Life" be like?

Or should they just throw up their hands and say, "There's no making these whackadoodles happy so why bother?"

I fail to understand why you're asking me all of this.  I said nothing about Drax's videos and, in fact, think they're rather good.  I simply take issue with your assertion that Derek was suggesting people be put to a political litmus test, when, in actuality, it's Drax who seemingly requires people to pass his own political litmus test... or else they should be dubbed one of the "crazies".

I couldn't honestly care less who LL decides to sponsor, but surely even you can tell the difference between user content and LL sponsored content.  By accepting LL sponsorship, Drax has placed himself in a position which requires a bit more scrutiny than that to which other, simple users are subject.

While I wouldn't feel it necessary to call him out simply because someone points to his videos, I generally agree with Derek's position on Drex's behavior.  I'm not suggesting that LL should not make use of his videos because of this... I'm suggesting that Drax needs to consider how that type of behavior looks, in light of his elevated position in the SL community.

Please, understand that its not his political views with which I take issue, if for no other reason than my views are pretty much in line with the ones I've seen him express... his promotion of divisiveness is what I find objectionable.  I've told him this before and would like to believe that he understands my position, even though he never responded to me concerning the matter.  I get the feeling that his lack of response was reactive to the fact that my comments didn't quite fit with his objective of vilifying those with whom he disagrees.  Of course, I've no real way of knowing.

...Dres

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there), and I think we can be pretty certain that none of the target audience for these promotional videos will have heard of either Drax or his political views, either.

Maybe it's different in the USA, but as a Brit I'm really not aware, that, for example, an advert for a particular product is made by M&C Saachi, a British advertising agency founded and part owned by Maurice Saachi, the present Chairman of the Conservative Party, and even if I were, I wouldn't take a particular company's decision to have M&C Saachi handle its advertising as any sort of endorsement of  Maurice Saachi's political views.

I just don't see the force of objections to Drax's videos, unless it's simply, "LL can do nothing right."

 

But if you were the president of said company that advertised with R&M and Saachi went on the telly and said that everone who voted Labour were crazies, and had no empathy, insulting half your customers and alienting other potential customers, how the hell would you feel about that? Would you continue to use R&M as your representative for your products???

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there),

I'm surprised you've lived so long ignorant of the fact that political views are usually always contentious to those who hold opposing political views.

...Dres  (BTW, I've boycotted and supported the boycott of many businesses that are run by or support anti-gay groups and politicians.  Just because you don't care if you give your money to people who use it to undermine your best political interests, doesn't mean everyone else is so lackadaisical.)

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You are right to provide an example of what I was suggesting. Let me elaborate.

Two unscripted virtual worlds went live in 2003: Second Life and EVE Online. Both are open-ended political economies. Both are worlds, not games. Second Life enables user-generated content and connects financially to RL. EVE enables an entire universe to run on a single server.

Compare the website of Second Life to the website of EVE Online.

Compare the YouTube channel of Linden Lab to the YouTube channel of CCP Games.

Here is an example of promotional artwork.

Here is the announcement of the 2016 Fanfest.

Here is a RL monument built to celebrate the residents.

Here is the trailer for the

.

Here are the executives, managers, developers, programmers and staff

.

My point is not to compare the two worlds in terms of function and design, but to compare the two companies in terms of vision, enthusiasm, openness, professionalism, communication, customer relations, advertising and marketing. I'm sure you'd agree that Linden Lab needs to up its game.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there),

I'm surprised you've lived so long ignorant of the fact that political views are usually always contentious to those who hold opposing political views.

...Dres  (BTW, I've boycotted and supported the boycott of many businesses that are run by or support anti-gay groups and politicians.  Just because you don't care if you give your money to people who use it to undermine your best political interests, doesn't mean everyone else is so lackadaisical.)

I think what you mean is that you have boycotted and supported the boycott of many businesses that you know to be run by or support anti-gay groups and politicians.    Do you really inquire about the views of -- for example -- the proprietor of a gas station before filling up your car there?    Sure if you know he's anti-gay, then boycott him, but do you don't know his views, do you really check first?

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there), and I think we can be pretty certain that none of the target audience for these promotional videos will have heard of either Drax or his political views, either.

Maybe it's different in the USA, but as a Brit I'm really not aware, that, for example, an advert for a particular product is made by M&C Saachi, a British advertising agency founded and part owned by Maurice Saachi, the present Chairman of the Conservative Party, and even if I were, I wouldn't take a particular company's decision to have M&C Saachi handle its advertising as any sort of endorsement of  Maurice Saachi's political views.

I just don't see the force of objections to Drax's videos, unless it's simply, "LL can do nothing right."

 

But if you were the president of said company that advertised with R&M and Saachi went on the telly and said that everone who voted Labour were crazies, and had no empathy, insulting half your customers and alienting other potential customers, how the hell would you feel about that? Would you continue to use R&M as your representative for your products???

I see.   So you're not saying Drax was a bad choice because potential customers might, on seeing the promotional videos, say, "But they're made by the notorious Draxtor Despres, a household name and byeword for immoderate political views!   No right-minded man or woman would do business with Linden Lab when they use someone like that to make their videos!" (or words to that effect).    

Rather, you're saying that LL -- who some people might think have better things to do with their employees' time than have them follow forum drama -- should have refused to use his services because he's apparently been in some forum spats?

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Have you noticed how many venture capitalists have invested in LL?  They don't care about customer satisfaction... their only purpose is to squeeze as much milk as possible out of a dying cow, before it kicks the bucket.  I see no reason to consider LL's fabulous new platform anything but veal.

I want to believe that the new platform will be incredibly wonderful and maybe it will, but unless LL, all of a sudden, becomes once again enamored with their users, failure is most certain.  But, failure means nothing to venture capitalists, because they know how to rig things in order that they'll profit regardless of whether a company in which they've invested thrives or goes bankrupt.  They're happy to just suck a business dry, than move on to the next venture.

I sincerely hope that the opinion which I've asserted here is unsubstantiated... as it very well may be.  But I honestly don't ever see LL going back to a climate wherein they interacted with their user base in a way which you've suggested.  Perhaps the both of us are just overly presumptive for suggesting that we know what's best for LL and Veal World... in which case, I'll believe it when I see it.

...Dres

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there),

I'm surprised you've lived so long ignorant of the fact that political views are usually always contentious to those who hold opposing political views.

...Dres  (BTW, I've boycotted and supported the boycott of many businesses that are run by or support anti-gay groups and politicians.  Just because you don't care if you give your money to people who use it to undermine your best political interests, doesn't mean everyone else is so lackadaisical.)

I think what you mean is that you have boycotted and supported the boycott of many businesses that you know to be run by or support anti-gay groups and politicians.    Do you really inquire about the views of -- for example -- the proprietor of a gas station before filling up your car there?    Sure if you know he's anti-gay, then boycott him, but do you don't know his views, do you really check first?

I'm not so obsessive that I would ask every single business owner with which I do business their political affiliations, but if I found out that the local, owner-operated gas station where I buy my gas regularly contributes to anti-gay causes, you bet your ass I'll discontinue giving them my money, as well as advocate that anyone I know do so as well.

...Dres

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LlewLlwyd wrote:

***The problem must be the Board, as the CEOs come and go without making any difference***


It's more about corporate culture really. For good or bad every organisation has its own way of doing things and its own way of viewing things. It takes good leadership and lots of time and patience and hard wok to fight the intertia caused by this an steer the organisation in a completely new direction.

I think there are two time periods that more than any others defined and established Linden Lab's coporate culture.

In the beginning there were a bunch of jolly guys who just wanted to make something new, something fun, something spectacular! They needed paying customers to be able to afford this of course but that was never a major issue. It was the creation itself that mattered. Lovely idea but not really sustainable in the long run, they had to learn how to keep the customers happy to be able to keep the customers at all.

Then, jsut as they started to get the hang of that, they got a new CEO with some ... rather unusual ideas. He introduced the development by popularity contests concept. The developers presented their ideas and all employees voted for what they thought was the best. The result was of course that development became focused on free standing - often buzz-word driven - projects rather than on a systematic development of SL as a whole and since the paying customers didn't get to vote, their needs became less important. We can of course ask how on earth somebody with such a hare-brained idea could ever become CEO of a lrage company at all but that's hindsight.

I do actually believe that all the later leaders of LL has worked hard to repair the damage this caused but that's not done overnight and it's only recently we've started to see even hints of results. I think SL2 is doing a lot of good here. No matter what this new WV turns out to be - even if it doesn't come to be at all - the expereience of working together as a team towards a common target at a level they've never done before has done and will do LL as an organisation a lot of good.

 

I think LL's attitude towards SL and SL's users can be illustrated with a single keyboard shortcut. Keyboard shortcuts are essential to any well designed user interface. You don't want too many of them. They can clutter up the UI and besides, what's the point in having more of them than what people can remember? You want to reserve them for important functions, functions that the users - or at least the key users - need and use often enough they want a shortcut to them.

Now, I'm not saying the SL UI is a well designed one, that would be a ridiculous claim. But it's not so bad it completely ignores this basic rule of keyboard shortcuts so which function have one says a lot about who the key users are and what functions they need to access a lot.

With that in mind, log on to SL and type ctrl-alt-G.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Derek Torvalar wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

I had no idea that Drax holds contentious political views until now (and, indeed, I'm still not sure what's said to be so contentious about them, but that's neither here nor there), and I think we can be pretty certain that none of the target audience for these promotional videos will have heard of either Drax or his political views, either.

Maybe it's different in the USA, but as a Brit I'm really not aware, that, for example, an advert for a particular product is made by M&C Saachi, a British advertising agency founded and part owned by Maurice Saachi, the present Chairman of the Conservative Party, and even if I were, I wouldn't take a particular company's decision to have M&C Saachi handle its advertising as any sort of endorsement of  Maurice Saachi's political views.

I just don't see the force of objections to Drax's videos, unless it's simply, "LL can do nothing right."

 

But if you were the president of said company that advertised with R&M and Saachi went on the telly and said that everone who voted Labour were crazies, and had no empathy, insulting half your customers and alienting other potential customers, how the hell would you feel about that? Would you continue to use R&M as your representative for your products???

I see.   So you're not saying Drax was a bad choice because potential customers might, on seeing the promotional videos, say, "But they're made by the notorious Draxtor Despres, a household name and byeword for immoderate political views!   No right-minded man or woman would do business with Linden Lab when they use someone like that to make their videos!" (or words to that effect).    

Rather, you're saying that LL -- who some people might think have better things to do with their employees' time than have them follow forum drama -- should have refused to use his services because he's apparently been in some forum spats?

Except, it wasn't just some forum spat.  Drax made the decision to use his newly acquired status in order to espouse his political views for the purpose of singling out those who hold differing beliefs as crazy.  As I've previously stated, I don't believe that this should disqualify him from having LL sponsor his videos.  I simply believe that Drax should consider his status in the community and refrain from such divisive rhetoric or step down from such a position.  Then he can say whatever the hell he wants... sans the audience he's been able to command because of his sponsored position.

...Dres

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Derek Torvalar wrote:

Gee, maybe they should sponsor a video maker who puts together a series of videos about people who do a wide variety of interesting things in SL.

Oh wait, they have...


Oh christ!

Yes, that weasel Despres is a fine ambassador.

Be sure to checkout the link he posted for 'context'.

 I complied with your request to check out the link.   The link he posted for context was an article by Steven W Thrasher, a weekly columnist for The Guardian newspaper in the UK, about how he felt, as a Black man, covering a pro-Police rally during the "I can't breath" protests following the decision not to indict NYPD officer David Panatleo for causing the death of Eric Garner.   

He felt frightened and threatened, he says, and very conflicted about whether to respond to racist chanting or maintain a professional distance:

Here I was, being “protected” by the NYPD on duty, surrounded by angry, white, retired and off-duty cops and their supporters. Who hated the press and, it seemed, Black people — and I was in the middle of them. I wanted them to talk, and I wanted to hear what they had to say, so I didn’t say much back, even to the man trying to convince me that if Garner had been pliant enough, he wouldn’t have died.

http://contexts.org/blog/i-can-breathe-and-the-occasional-fear-of-covering-protests/

What do you say is so objectionable about the article that someone should be condemned for linking to it in an apparently approving way?

 

The timing was inappropriate. It demonstrated a lack of respect for what had just occurred to the NYPD officers their families, and.co-workers. Personally, I found it offensive that he would choose that particular day to make that potentially inflammatory post. 


Actually I would say that calling the timing inappropriate demonstrates a lack of respect for people of color. It demonstrates a notion that somehow we are all collectively guilty for the actions of one - as if, unlike whites, we were not individuals, but masses representative of whatever our given 'color' happens to be. Be that Black like the journalist in question, or Mulato-Asian like myself, or whatever else one might be that allows them to suffer this collective responsibility notion.

It is in moment like that one that we most need to be out there and engaged in discourse, fiercely. Because a lack of such discourse is what got that mess started in the first place.

 

 

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Have you noticed how many venture capitalists have invested in LL?

I want to believe that the new platform will be incredibly wonderful and maybe it will, but unless LL, all of a sudden, becomes once again enamored with their users, failure is most certain.  But, failure means nothing to venture capitalists, because they know how to rig things in order that they'll profit regardless of whether a company in which they've invested thrives or goes bankrupt.

I sincerely hope that the opinion which I've asserted here is unsubstantiated... as it very well may be.  But I honestly don't ever see LL going back to a climate wherein they interacted with their user base in a way which you've suggested.

I feel Linden Labs has long shown that they don't quite understand their own customers, nor the demographics most likely to want to engage with the kind of product they put out.

They keep chasing a dream customer at the expense of the one they got. I can NOT be certain that is what will happen again here, but past examples make me easily jaded on that point.

That said... VCs in Silicon Valley are easily taken in by 'the shiny' - so they might be able to attract notable investment if they put on the right spin - even lacking customers. But 'Dot-Com Boom 2.0' has been notably lacking the 'dumb as a brick VCs' that dot-com 1.0' had... this time around, the VCs might go in for the shiny, but they seem to have also hired people to check the books and business plan before they sink in too much support.

I have NOT been paying attention to how much investment Linden Lab gets. I don't actually know if its little or a lot. But you are right that the investor class is perfectly willing to suck all the life out of something to make a dime. Though in Silicon Valley the more preferred path is to take a thing to a point were it either IPOs or gets sold to a bigger shark. And after that, you can tell how good of a plan was really hiding under the label by how fast key players jump ship (or don't).

 

Some of of the points in the 'summary blogs' about Ebbe's speach sound like they have a good plan. Some do not. But its a speach, and its risky to read too much into it at this point I guess... either up or down.

 

EDITED TO ADD A 'NOT' IN A SENTENCE THAT I HAD MEANT TO PUT THERE, WHICH FLIPS THE MEANING OF ONE OF MY POINTS BACK TO WHAT I INTENDED... (oops).

 

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Good point about corporate culture: "It takes good leadership and lots of time and patience and hard work to fight the inertia caused by this and steer the organisation in a completely new direction." At the same time, there lurks on the Board at least one person who was directly responsible for SL's change of direction in 2007.

As for the venture capitalists, their problem is an obsession with short-term returns. Imagine if someone like Elon Musk or Warren Buffett were to buy Linden Lab! Not only would they provide sound leadership, but they'd have a 25 year time horizon. Moreover, they'd have the brains to comprehend the core nature of Second Life. They wouldn't cut off their heel to fit into the glass slipper (the original Cinderella); they'd build Oz from the ground up and sell ruby shoes.

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