West Atoll ROW (Right of Way) SLRR

[sapro]

oops HILTO

[Prokofy Neva]

Er, "standing in the WAY of WARR"? You mean, enjoying the right to private property which actuallly Linden Lab more or less guarantees.

What is WARR, that we must make way for it? An abandoned project whose owner could not tier it. Now he/his alts/his friends/Linden fanboyz want the Lindens to tier it and want everyone to get out of its way.

There isn't any rationale for this. 

[Prokofy Neva]

Qie, all of this is misleading if not untrue.

The SLRR was planned and laid across the atoll continent, for example, all at once not long after the sims were created.

If some little spur of it wasn't finished that doesn't cancel out the basic truth that it was planned and built. Obviously, Lindens didn't spend months -- years -- trying to piece it together from abandoned land and buy-outs of private owners.

It was a Linden project, on Linden land, not only "for the most part" but "mainly" -- and the edge cases you're invoking don'to cancel that out.

Cranky ad farmers extorting is a problem the Lindens should have solved for all of us, globally, years ago, instead of allowing nearly 5 years to go by while all our land was reduced in value and many were forced to feed extortionists to "buy the view".

So invoking this global problem as a rail enthusiast's obstacle to try to gain sympathy from me is a no-go. They shouldn't have existed because the rules put in place after five years to curb extortion and prevent proliferation of ads could have been put in instantly, instead of waiting while ideological communists, techno-libertarians and assorted enthusiasts on the spectrum had their way.

I once talked to a prominent ad baron at a conference who charged $10,000L to "buy the view" for parcels in his empire with ugly stuff on them. He was a Wall Street programmer. He had a job and didn't need this income. It was "fun". It was "a hobby". And "why not". Etc. 

Please don't talk to me about microparcels. Recently, I asked the Lindens to sell me a 32m micro-baron's extortion plot in the middle of all my land like a donut hole which was finally abandoned. I was told "as a one-time courtesy" this could be done. Really, guys? You should be offering us these ridicularities unilaterally and turning over land to be tiered by us, not you.

THE RAIL NETWORK DOES NOT IMPROVE CONDITIONS FOR NEIGHBORING LANDLORDS.

Do you own land? How much? Is it next to a railroad or road or waterway? Where?

If you did, on any significant number of sims, you would rapidly find that it does not help your value, but devalues your land due to unmanned vehicles and griefing hobos -- which is really a problem BTW.

Having owned land by RRs and supported them for 12 years (have you?), I can tell you that you lose money and tenants from this "fun," not the opposite. 

The way to win new tier-payers is to develop a universal policy, consistently applied, about selling on the auction, selling on demand, and offering to sell. But instead, the Lindens don't do this and prefer this patchwork and exasperation.

Tomorrow, should they wish, the Lindens could PUT BACK the programmed function that made abandoned land INSTANTLY go to sale for $1/meter, in 16 squares, even. Yes, that lovely feature was what created the ad farm 16 m menace, but in today's setting, where the Lindens are willing to prosecute ad extortion, and where $1/m is not what a bot will eat let alone an intelligent human being, it would be a huge help to moving this land off their dime to ours.

But they aren't interested in doing this for all kinds of reason.

Your touching belief that railroads help to "do something" about this problem is placed. Look at the map. Even with a zillion railroads, you could never reach all the abandoned land stretches.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

Um, why do you think rail enthusiasts should not only take over land on the Mainland by agitating the Lindens to tier it for them AND you get to monopolize the discusion about it on the forums, too???

Look ,the railroad in Grote has been pulled up now.

Good!

John Ruskin has prevailed!

The Lindens can you agitators can look at the map and figure out what abandoned land or Linden-owned land might serve here, without having to ruin the view or grab resident parcels. 

[Qie Niangao]

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

 

Even with a zillion railroads, you could never reach all the abandoned land stretches.

---

Even if you read a zillion books, you could never make your way through the New York Public Library, but we don't declare literacy a fool's errand.

It's clear you don't remember Robin's office hours and especially Jack's where we were arguing the same side of the adfarming debate.

Anyway, the WARR is a bit like the Holy Land, in that the "rightful owner" depends which layer of pre-history is dug up. Some current owners bought before WARR was built, some while it was present, and some after it was gone. There's no way they'll all agree whether or not it should be restored.

Personally, recognizing all the abandoned land that railroads will never reach, I'm not too worried that restoring WARR would starve the rail-averse of a satisfying Second Life experience.

[VenumusVortex]

the Guide rails are going in, so far at last check they go up to the end of the Burns sim

[sapro]

 

 

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Burns/13/17/59

 



 

guide rails go to here ..every day there is some progress

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

 

John Ruskin has prevailed!

 

---

I thought the Lab was cracking down on ageplay?

[VenumusVortex]

---

Prokofy Neva wrote:

 

John Ruskin has prevailed!

---

You ma'am should be thrown in prision for the remainder of your natural life for saying that.

LL please ban Prok again.

[Rufferta]

No, don't ban Prok, even though I had to look up "John Ruskin".

Don't know if I can post a link here, but thought there might be some interest in this BBC article about building the London Underground.   Apparently getting transit right of way has been a problem for a long time. 

[VenumusVortex]

great news everybody. Guide rails are in up to the Grote barricades.

[Prokofy Neva]

Qie, once again, none of this makes sense.

There is no real reason for the WARR to be resurrected except that a handful of forums' agitators are banging on the Lindens.

The original creator couldn't tier it, couldn't find tier help while he ran it, and now he/you/his alts/whomever want the Lindens to tier it. Why? They have a railroad already.

This notion that there is some complex pre-history of many lawyers is baloney, as the WARR guy couldn't pay the tier, he abandoned it, the Lindens sold some of it and grabbed the rest of it and let it sit there for years. What's so complex about that? Nothing.

The Lindens have ENOUGH abandoned land that they could route this WARR to hell and back and not have to grab anybody's land in the process or despoil anyone's view. So let them do that. It's not that big a proposition. The idea that the WARR "must" follow its old bed or that anything "must" happen and we must all get out of the way is absurd. It's a game, and it's a toy RR. So move your blocks, kids, and play elsewhere.

It's irrelevant if you were opposed to ad farms on principle back when Robin and Jack Linden were here. And? So what? The point is they both too way too long in arriving at a policy -- five years -- and the issues of ad farming aren't merely an RR problem but a global problem -- and PS still are, as they still extort and the Lindens still don't police them enough.

[Qie Niangao]

---

Prokofy Neva wrote:

This notion that there is some complex pre-history of many lawyers is baloney, as the WARR guy couldn't pay the tier, he abandoned it, the Lindens sold some of it and grabbed the rest of it and let it sit there for years. What's so complex about that? Nothing.

---

Yes, there's abandoned land aplenty through which a railroad branch could be routed, and even in the case of the WARR route, there are other options that do not need land already sold-off and not part of the "Linden Right-of-Way" that the Lab decided to preserve sometime after WARR itself was abandoned, now years ago. Yet there's more history here along WARR than you're acknowledging: Some landowners currently along that abandoned path were among those who rearranged or contributed land holdings for the WARR project, and others bought land there later because WARR existed (even though, yes, it was a privately-owned project). It's all very well to defend the newcomers who bought land after WARR was gone, but there are other landowners involved here, and calling it "baloney" doesn't make that fact go away. I agree that the WARR was privately held and therefore always at risk of its eventual abandonment -- which means historic stakeholders in WARR have no standing against the Lab if not all WARR is returned to service.

There's nothing preventing them resenting relative newcomers blocking the way, though, if they do.

I have no skin in this game, personally. I don't own any land pn this part of the Atoll, and I never used the WARR when it was in service. If, as I suspect, most current landowners along the route would prefer there be rail there (presumably very different from the old WARR builds), then it's great if they get it, but it's never going to be unanimous either way. I generally think more LDPW features, including railroads, are better for the Mainland than not, but even that isn't a universally accepted truth.

---

It's irrelevant if you were opposed to ad farms on principle back when Robin and Jack Linden were here. And? So what? The point is they both too way too long in arriving at a policy -- five years -- and the issues of ad farming aren't merely an RR problem but a global problem -- and PS still are, as they still extort and the Lindens still don't police them enough.

---

Heh, yeah to all that. If you go back and see why I referenced Robin and Jack, you may understand the irony of you now trying to find something to argue about it. Or you may not, which would further illustrate my point, now that I think of it.

[Prokofy Neva]

Qie, you are totally exaspering.

As I've written multiple times, *I* am one of those landowners who both contributed (!) and allowed WARR right of way over my land (!). So seriously, I'm, um, "aware" of this feature of the, er, "long-suffering" WARR. Truly I am.

For my trouble, as I've stated multiple times, I got an ugly high-rise in the view on a pretty pond -- for no good reason except somebody playing railroad tycoon "felt like it". 

That's all. 

I will go on calling this entire enterprise "baloney" because a) there is no objective need for another railroad in SL where there is the Linden's SLRR and other resident-created railroads; b) there is no objective need for the Lindens or me or anybody else to tier the revival of the WARR dream; c) there is no public demand or public use of this creation beyond a few very vocal forums-dwellers. The end.

Re: I don't own any land pn this part of the Atoll, and I never used the WARR when it was in service

Yes, which is why your opinion on this matter is fairly useless, when talking to people who a) donated land to WARR and b) sat under the shadow of WARR for years.

Re:  I suspect, most current landowners along the route would prefer there be rail there (presumably very different from the old WARR builds).

Um, no. There is no basis for this assumption. You haven't polled them and I wouldn't trust you as a biased advocate to perform the poll. No one except a few RR hobos on this thread are clamoring for this; most people do not care. Railroads are no boon for them -- they bring first of all, ugly, stupid, laggy unmanned vehicles and second of all hobo griefers. If you have not experienced the hobo griefers, I think you need to do more research on this. I have ample testimony on this phenomenon myself.

No, this fantasy about railroads has no basis in reality.

Um, there isn't any "irony" in me referencing anything related to Robin and Jack. I -- along with many other landowners and business people -- lobbied them for about 5 long years to stop allowing the devaluation of our land. Hello! Filing numerous JIRAs and going to numerous office meetings. Finally something (not us, but possibly some other big buyers out there) made them turn the corner on this. Good! This irrelevant to the railroad debate today. If rails also suffered ad extortion, my God, so what? They'd be a tiny minority of the property owners who suffered it!!!!

I agree that more LPDW features would be great for the Mainland.

But who says these features have to only be from the culture of the open source crypto kid hobos -- railroads, space stations like Star Trek, horror carnivals, etc.

Why? This is a minority of the SL population.

As I pointed out to Michael Linden, how about building a dog walk/pet walk on the old WARR bed and "Linden Right of Way" in Grote? Trust me, this would get WAY more use from the people who actually live there or rent there. How about little dog fountains and horse water troughs? I see more real people riding horses than anything -- unmanned bots running vehicles don't count. 

The moles have made some odd things like the juice bar in Brownlee which I used to like and had land near, but which got ZERO usage, and I mean ZERO because we were there for months on end building this project (that then had to be retired, including a racetrack and guess what -- a railroad!!!) and I never saw a single soul go into that juice bar. I'm probably the only avatar who has clicked on that juice in 10 years.

What if *gasp* the Lindens made a more popular type of things like a vintage marketplace of the sort that 8f8 makes? What if they made a campground with more to it than the simple fires they put out 13 years ago in places like De Haro? What about a fair with games in it instead of a frustrating game that just dumps you back home and is just on the horror theme, done to death in SL? There would be nothing wrong with building to more popular culture and not defaulting every time to the exotic geek preferences.

[VenumusVortex]

Prokofy could you PLEASE give it a rest. WARR development stopped at the road in Grote so no need to continue to rage on here now.

[Qie Niangao]

Whatever one's view of development on the site of the old West Atoll RR, it's attention paid to the existing Mainland.

There are indications that a whole batch of stuff is coming soon to SL that will further remove residents from Mainland ownership and rentals.

Spy satellite images don't reveal any rail transport.

[Ineffable Mote]

Some additional history from someone who once owned much land adjacent to the WARR line on Grote as well as across from the old Sikkima station on Slosser. The WARR line was abandoned when I still lived there, I ended up giving up most of my land there later on after the sims got trashed first by some auction buyers who put up huge walls and banlines in the middle of the lake on Grote blocking everyone but them from using it, and then by the other person here currently blocking the rebuilding of the rail line when she effectively "went to war" with them, putting up numerous huge particle spewing full glowing nuclear reactors, large wall sized signs, etc. just blight overload. Once the land on the sim had been scorched and burned and most landowners driven off by it, it all got conveniently put to auction, presumably because tickets were filed on them to take ownership of them, at cheap prices. One of the Linden Right Of Way parcels was also conveniently put up for auction, which this person then took ownership of, ostensibly to "safekeep" it along with all the other land on the sim and prevent whatever usage of it she didn't want on the sim, when they knew full well what it was for along with the history of the rail and LL's taking of it after the WARR abandonment. One person doesn't have any business blocking the public rail line from being put in as planned, especially when they didn't "just happen" to acquire and own a random piece of land here, it was their intent to block the project all along. This person has made that clear, they thought the WARR build with the raised tressel through there was ugly and was glad to see it gone, and now with "NO RAILROAD!!!" signs even. And this is all just business as usual for them.

i recall in the old days people playing extortion games with parcels wanted for rail lines on the north side of continent as well, I don't see why a land swap or confiscation at worst case can't/won't be done here so that the line can go through on protected/reclaimed parcels along the route as planned, unless it can be rerouted, over/along the road maybe. It's literally *one* person currently hijacking the project and blocking the use of contigous land *specifically* set aside for this project, contiguous for probably well over a dozen sims across that part of the continent, which was always meant to be set aside by LL and used by the residents of Second Life as a whole.

Apologies if any of this is redundant, I haven't time to read the entire thread.

[Ineffable Mote]

Skimming back some..I also own land on Oculea along the rail lines. The "unmanned vehicles" that pass through on the SLRR are in no way laggy or bothersome(even if they're not all to my tastes), and in the year and a half I've been here I've NOT ONCE seen any "hobo griefers" here, or griefers of any type in this area. I understand that some people get targeted for griefing for certain reasons and am somewhat sympathetic to that up to a point, but that's all it is. It has nothing to do with rail lines, or "RR hobos", or "hobo griefers". 

[PetalSilk]

Not redundant at all Eva .....Excellent

[Cory Monk]

So has this entire project been halted due to the ramblings of a single entiled brat, aka Profsky Neva? You say the WARR is an eyesore, yet your buildings look like something a 3 day-old newb would have built in 2005.

Nobody is suggesting you are going to be evicted from your land - that won't happen. However, you make a big point about how your land is YOUR land and you can build what YOU like there. So what's your issue with the WARR being built on LINDEN land? It's not yours and you have absoultely no voice as to what's built on it, whether you like it or not.

Unfortunately for you, there IS another route around your land and this project is likely going to continue with or without your consent. Dozens of people want to see this project come to fruition, it will give life to the neglected railroad community in SL, not to mention it will revitalize much of the abanonded land along the line with player owned stations and sidings.

Your argument against the WARR is ridiculous and invalid. A WARR train, man or unmanned, generated practically no lag, certainly not noticable, and passes through every what? half hour? every two hours? You clearly have an agenda that is simply more than not wanting to see some rails placed near your land... one can only guess what that is. Regardless, stop acting like you're the 'be-all and end-all' of the WARR, because you're not.

Is there a group I can join to help push this project forward?

[Susie Adored]

This is the only group I know of , Cory ...https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Virtual_Railway_Consortium   

Do you have any knowledge that the project is likely to continue ?

[Prokofy Neva]

On 2/22/2015 at 4:44 AM, Hrdtop75 Deluxe said:

       During the week I was told about some abandoned land that had been renamed to "Linden Right of Way".     

       

       This land was once part of a privately owned railroad closed in 2013 named WARR (West Atoll Railroad).

        I would like to see a railroad built by the LDPWS on the western side of Heterocera Atoll. I would imagine that a railroad would open new opportunities for residents wanting to purchase land near a railroad and I'm sure that the Second Life rail community would love to see a west atoll rail branch again.

        So what is your thoughts about a railroad on the ROW?

There shouldn't be one.

Once again, let's correct the record as interested parties are spreading falsehoods about this.

A resident who made a resident's RR abandoned her/his land. Nobody offered to buy it. PS this is an RR that I once supported by giving land or right of way, unlike others in this discussion.

The Lindens then took this abandoned land, labelled it "Linden Right of Way" and then for about three years or more...did nothing.

The Lindens already have railroads all over the place. The idea that they had to tier *this* one was fanciful. They themselves did not put in a new RR.

Instead, *the Lindens auctioned* the "Linden Right of Way" in Juanita. THEY were the ones who did this. They didn't give it away and it didn't "fall into my hands". It was auctioned. A land flipper bought it on the auction -- none of the rail enthusiasts in this or other threads did -- and put it out for a high price. I bought it to save the view for my tenants on properties on 4 sims there. BTW, the WARR had only blighted the view, forcing me to abandon the land right under it years ago as it never rented.

My ownership of this land is legal and comes via the Lindens' own auctions. Agitating for me to leave it or forcing me to sell it is wrong. Build your RRs elsewhere, use your own money, stop making other people pay with tier -- and their views.

[Callum Meriman]

2.5 year zombie reply there pork.