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LlazarusLlong

Clean up the Forums!

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


LlazarusLlong wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

Ebbe
, are you awake? How about filling us in on what is going on at the lab? You do understand that almost every game company does weekly, and some even daily podcasts or Youtube videos. Most don't even have a reason to do this, like LL does. Unity is the closest thing to the SL platform, and they have videos almost everyday. Go onto their forums, they have actual Unity workers there answering questions and engaging. Seriously LL, you tell us how complex SL is, yet nobody at LL  answers anything, EVER.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an answer here, Medhue.
.

 

 

Apparently, he's been "busy" . . .

 

That is like the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Not only does Ebbe not come to his own forums, but no lindens do either. Even the so called moderators can't bother themselves long enough to let Ebbe know about a thread, with his name in the title. Oh, I know I'm not going to get any answers. I've done numerous threads with his name in them. I'm not saying he has to be here all the time, but a few minutes every once in awhile would do wonders. Being busy is not really an excuse. We are all busy, and I bet quite a few of us are much more busy and work many more hours than he does, but here we are.

If nothing else, I'm evaluating the numerous options I have to spend my time at. What I see from other platforms, are people engaging as much as they possibly can, even CEOs. What I have seen from LL over the past 5 or so years could barely fill a 3 page notebook. To me, this just doesn't look good. Seriously, I'm looking for a reason to keep promoting this platform, when I could be promoting others.

Supposedly, they have this new platform coming, which we have heard nothing at all about, and that really worries me. I know the history of the company pretty intimately and seen bad decision after bad decision. It's almost like they have no clue what they are doing. Just look at Fitted Mesh, or releasing mesh avatars who's eyes aren't even rigged. Fixing any bug is a year long process, if it ever gets fixed.

Yeah, Ok, It might seem like all I'm doing is bash them, but it's because I love the concept of the platform. It's because I know personally, and work together with creators in this world, whether here or on other platforms. I'm criticizing them because I give a crap. Heck, for whatever reason, I keep paying for my sim.

And this thread is a perfect example of why Lindens don't bother with the forums.

Article on the obsolesence of Internet fora from 2011...

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/remembrance-of-message-boards-past/?_r=0

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

And this thread is a perfect example of why Lindens don't bother with the forums.


If only!!!

Personally, I'd be delighted if the Lindens stayed completely away from the forums.

Especially the moderators.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

And this thread is a perfect example of why Lindens don't bother with the forums.


If only!!!

Personally, I'd be delighted if the Lindens stayed completely away from the forums.

Especially the moderators.

They aint Lindens.

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

Awwww, what happened to the picture of the swimming kitty?

Perhaps Llazarus RIC'd himself for inappropriate content.

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Venus Petrov wrote:


LlazarusLlong wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

And this thread is a perfect example of why Lindens don't bother with the forums.


If only!!!

Personally, I'd be delighted if the Lindens stayed completely away from the forums.

Especially the moderators.

They aint Lindens.

Community Linden keeps insisting that they are.

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

Awwww, what happened to the picture of the swimming kitty?

Those who can not remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

(Stealth moderation still applies to art-house depictions of VERY still life, it seems.)

(By stealth moderation I am referring to a process by which posts are removed with no explanation made to the originator, despite that being the mandatory protocol that apparently Xiola espouses and promotes; Plus ca change...)

(I wouldn't mind, but the pictures of other vermin remain on view in this thread, despite their causing an overt annoyance to me, which is contrary to the Community Standards protocol on Harassment.)

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LlazarusLlong wrote:


(I wouldn't mind, but the pictures of other vermin remain on view in this thread, despite their causing an overt annoyance to me, which is contrary to the Community Standards protocol on Harassment.)

i agree about vermin. They are really annoying

is why I 100% support your suggestion for kittens. They are pretty cute but more to your point they turn into vermin hunters

 

Mouse-vs-Cat.jpg

 

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irihapeti wrote:

 

 

Mouse-vs-Cat.jpg

 

 

Cat gets rat.  Chef gets cat and rat.

Tomorrow on menu at Fu King Pandas

Authentic Chinese Cuisine

Eat in.  Take out.  Delivery.

 

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DejaHo wrote:


irihapeti wrote:

 

 

Mouse-vs-Cat.jpg

 

 

Cat gets rat.  Chef gets cat and rat.

Tomorrow on menu at Fu King Pandas

Authentic Chinese Cuisine

Eat in.  Take out.  Delivery.

 

Yum!!

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:



And this thread is a perfect example of why Lindens don't bother with the forums.

Article on the obsolesence of Internet fora from
2011
...


If that is the case, It would be sad, and not a good sign. I'm not talking about people having lively, or actually interesting opinions and honest criticisms. I'm talking about a company filled with grown adults but child like sensitivities. When someone gives you criticism, or even says what you made sucks, it's not a reason to curl up in a ball in the corner.

I'm just a tiny fish. Yet, I have dealt with thousands of customers, and many hundreds that were insulting. When I first started, yeah, I was affected by the criticisms. Then, my brain took over and realized that maybe these people, rude or not, were actually trying to tell me something. Something I wasn't noticing myself. Yeah, some are just mean, but NONE of them can't be a opportunity to learn something and grow. It's tough sometimes, but what would life be, if it was easy?

Today, I'm not affected, even in the slightest, by a negative comment. I'm actually more interested in them, and I want to hear more people's opinions. Sometimes, I agree with them, and make a correction. If they are saying crazy things, then I can comment, correct anything that is wrong, and leave their comment as evidence of their own delusions, and anger. Another customer will also likely come by and point out how crazy the person is. Matter of fact, I don't think I have 1 negative comment on any of my products that don't have some other customer correcting them, in some way.

There is also a level of honesty here. I, for 1, will always try to be honest, and upfront with people, as this benefits all parties. Recently, I got a big contract job because I was flat out honest. I had no idea how to do what they needed, but I was asked by another client to look at this character generator system, which they were also wanting to use. So, I just messaged them saying that, and if they couldn't find someone to do the job, to give me a call. They called, and I figured it out. When I finished the job, the lead coder told me they had dozens of people that responded, with most of them saying they could easily do the job. Not 1 came through. He said I was the only guy that actually said that I had no clue how, but I might be able to figure it out. When you aren't honest, you're just wasting people's time. I think my time is probably the most precious thing I have.

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I like your suggestions here. If they were introduced, I finally could contribute something there. :) 

It should be introduced also for the International Forums.

They are totally out of control and really, really boring.

But here the lack of interest from the company side is more than obvious and it tells a lot about, how much LL cares for the users in general, if you use into consideration, that the german community is, as far as I know, the second largest here in sl, and really no one cares. 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

[snip] .. It's tough sometimes, but what would life be, if it was easy? .. [snip]

"The most valuable of things come at the highest of prices."

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:



And this thread is a perfect example of why Lindens don't bother with the forums.

Article on the obsolesence of Internet fora from
2011
...


If that is the case, It would be sad, and not a good sign. I'm not talking about people having lively, or actually interesting opinions and honest criticisms. I'm talking about a company filled with grown adults but child like sensitivities. When someone gives you criticism, or even says what you made sucks, it's not a reason to curl up in a ball in the corner.


I'm not saying honest criticism isn't useful; just that forums aren't. For every piece of useful information you'll have to filter out a huge pile of sidetracks, personal conflicts, utter ignorance and Rick Astley videos. It's like straining a litterbox, only the proportion of reusable material to crap is reversed. Maybe that's why there are so many cat pictures...

And after all of that you won't see what your customers think; you'll see what the users of your forum think. Look at any news article - say there are three hundred comments on it. That will represent one-one-millionth of the population of the United States, and in fact a self-selected one-one-millionth that is almost entirely made up of trolls and idiots.

 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

[snip] .. and in fact a self-selected one-one-millionth that is almost entirely made up of trolls and idiots. 

When I first came to the SL Forums it was because of a rumor I'd heard in-world. I came here to find out if it was true or not. Within the first day it became painfully clear who were trolls and who were top-notch thinkers, posters, contributors and participants. Even though I personally am incredibly intelligent and very adept at figuring out people (cackles and ducks), I'm confident that most others figure that out as well.

The Mods, and more importantly Xiola (da Boss), will be able to rapidly separate wheat from chaff .. IF THEY CARE TO TRY!

In my opinion the moderation that caused the permanent loss of Void and many others of her class was based on people that were initially trolls, told to behave like trolls .. and given the full weight of authority to do as they pleased. And kept totally hidden so that nothing they did could ever be used to help better their performance. It was worse than a Chicago Mob from the 1920's.

Many come here at the suggestion of friends, merchants, and acquaintances. They come because they have been frustrated by problems or difficulties they cannot seem to resolve in any "Normal" way. So no, I strongly disagree, the SL Forums are not an anchronistic stank-pit filled with do-badders and troublemakers. Rather I insist it can and MUST be the one final harbor of last resort for those LL is just about to lose ..

.. forever!

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

[snip] .. and in fact a self-selected one-one-millionth that is almost entirely made up of trolls and idiots. 

In my opinion the moderation that caused the permanent loss of Void and many others of her class was based on people that were initially trolls, told to behave like trolls .. and given the full weight of authority to do as they pleased. And kept totally hidden so that nothing they did could ever be used to help better their performance.

As stated before elsewhere by others ... Void was not lost or banned. 

She took a choice to discontinue support, because certain elements in this forum ( now begging for her vindication ) were the exact cause that moderation was merciless and swift.

Apparantly she decided that support for her was impossible if knowing that any post could disappear for any reason unspecified. After Void's disappearance and since the use of the feeds these elements even harassed CEO after CEO.

These elements are still present and not quite hidden : they have returned with alts so their main account cannot be held responsible. They actually don't care about Void. They demand control over moderation.

It's all about control.

ETA : Homo homini lupus est

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

In my opinion the moderation that caused the permanent loss of Void and many others of her class was based on people that were initially trolls,
told to behave like trolls
.. and
given the full weight of authority
to do as they pleased. And kept totally hidden so that nothing they did could ever be used to help better their performance. It was worse than a Chicago Mob from the 1920's.

It sounds as if you're speaking of the infamous Gang of Forum Thugs (aka Gang of Cutthroat Abusers aka Gang of Forum Bullies) who were given a "hit list" by a certain mod who instructed them to target the people on said list?


Within the first day it became painfully clear who were trolls and who were top-notch thinkers, posters, contributors and participants.

And I'm guessing that you probably would class the delusional paranoiac who dreamt up the above fairy tale to justify for herself why she, Queen of the Forum, was (temp-)banned as belonging to the latter group?


Many come here at the suggestion of friends, merchants, and acquaintances. They come because they have been frustrated by problems or difficulties they cannot seem to resolve in any "Normal" way. So no, I strongly disagree, the SL Forums are not an anchronistic stank-pit filled with do-badders and troublemakers. Rather I insist it can and MUST be the one final harbor of last resort for those LL is just about to lose ..

..
forever!

At least we agree on something.

ETA: Two guesses who this quote is from: "The people who abused the old GD are to blame for no new GD. I would bet those people won't be posting much anymore..."

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TDD123 wrote:

As stated before elsewhere by others ... Void was not lost or banned.  [snip] 

According to Void's own words, she departed these forums for good. That falls under my definition of "Lost". True enough, she did not depart SL nor the planet, but for the purposes of this thread and based on her own words, she has been lost to those people that come here for help, advice and guidance.

Now, can you honestly tell me that's NOT a loss?

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I mentioned before the strict but fair and effective moderation of the Xtreet forums (nee SL Exchange).  There were only a handful of forums but woe unto those who posted in the wrong one. You got a warning and then a slap -- and next time you posted more carefully instead of slapping something anywhere you liked.

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No, it is based on my experience during that time with inappropriate bans, mystical magical removal of threads and posts, and a total disregard for the personal dignity and decency of the people attempting to use the forums. I will grant you that there was a bit of backroom conspiracy going on, but that got put down very rapidly and was not responsible for anything lasting.

There was though a haunting perception among the staff tasked with managing these forums that the people posting here were immature, irresponsible and undeserving of proper treatment. That attitude merely echoed the attitude prevalent throughout Linden Lab. Over time that attitude has softened, in some places removed entirely, but nevertheless still can be found at the core of many missteps and issues between Linden Lab (Them) and the people that put money into their bank account (Us).

It's a basic fault that many have railed against in their own way. Prok had her methods, I've had mine, others have had theirs. But I think it very safe to say that despite the intensity or "flavor" of our discontent, a very large portion of it is created because we are treated with seredipity, disrespect and silence.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

Now, can you honestly tell me that's NOT a loss?

Yes. It's not. I find it unfortunate she took this stance which was left unreplied, but it's known moderation will not answer for it's actions in these forums. She played her card. Moderation did not take up the game.

It's a choice of hers I respect and I can agree with it, but that's something different.

But her choice was never detrimental to the continuation of these forums or the support others continued to give since her absence. Let's not forget that although Void did great things here supporting other users, she's not been the only one with great expertise which benefits other users.

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TDD123 wrote:


Darrius Gothly wrote:

Now, can you honestly tell me that's NOT a loss?

Yes. It's not. I find it unfortunate she took this stance which was left unreplied, but it's known moderation will not answer for itself in these forums. She played her card. Moderation did not take up the game.

It's a choice of hers I respect and I can agree with it, but that's something different.

But her choice was never detrimental to the continuation of these forums or the support others continued to give since her absence. Let's not forget that although Void did great things here supporting other users, but she's not been the only one.

We will have to agree to disagree on the level of detriment done by her departure from here; you seem to believe her absence has had little or no effect, while I believe that her value was large and its absence is a definite decline in the overall worth of these forums.

More to the point though is the reason behind Void's decision. It was based on her own moral compass and her own standards of "Fair Play" (in the grand global sense). She judged, rightly so IMHO, that she had sufficient seniority and community respect to point the spotlight on a problem that was damaging the forums and harming the relationship between LL and its customers.

I believe she judged the community correctly. I'm also of the opinion that she judged the moderators correctly and fully anticipated their (lack of) response. I believe that is why she made it her Grandstand Gesture .. as sometimes things get fixed only after really big losses.

Maybe I'm assigning too much meaning to Void's actions and their effects on the forums. But I know for myself, it is still a burr under my saddle that iteration after iteration of mods and management have yet to start fixing the same problems that have existed for years and years and years.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

We will have to agree to disagree on the level of detriment done by her departure from here; you seem to believe her absence has had little or no effect, while I believe that her value was large and its absence is a definite decline in the overall worth of these forums.

We disagree. That's ok with me. But again : to suppose Void was the ONLY contributor of support which gave any value to the forums, is not fair to those who have equal skills or at least try to give the same amount of support.

I do not deny Void was an unique specialist.


Darrius Gothly wrote:

Maybe I'm assigning too much meaning to Void's actions and their effects on the forums.

NOW we agree.


Darrius Gothly wrote:

But I know for myself, it is still a burr under my saddle that iteration after iteration of mods and management have yet to start fixing the same problems that have existed for years and years and years.

There are many factors that should be considered. Now that the forums are no longer overwhelmed with all kind of noise, maybe the current community manager ( Xiola ) might take into consideration of this forum' past, but that would mean she needs to jump back 4 years and check what happened back then and re-evaluate everything which has happened since regarding Void.

Seems very unlikely to me. It's also too little too late to make Void change her decision, even if LL would contact her about this matter.

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