Darrius Gothly Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 TDD123 wrote: Darrius Gothly wrote: We will have to agree to disagree on the level of detriment done by her departure from here; you seem to believe her absence has had little or no effect, while I believe that her value was large and its absence is a definite decline in the overall worth of these forums. We disagree. That's ok with me. But again : to suppose Void was the ONLY contributor of support which gave any value to the forums, is not fair to those who have equal skills or at least try to give the same amount of support. I do not deny Void was an unique specialist. Oh, I've never said she was the ONLY one of value. Far from it in fact as that would impinge on my own overblown judgement of my own worth here. (smug cackle) Just the same, I've still got all 10 fingers left, but I'm VERY sure I'd find it a great loss if I suddenly found myself with one less. Yep, I would learn to cope, but I'd still miss that missing digit. TDD123 wrote: Darrius Gothly wrote: But I know for myself, it is still a burr under my saddle that iteration after iteration of mods and management have yet to start fixing the same problems that have existed for years and years and years. There are many factors that should be considered. Now that the forums are no longer overwhelmed with all kind of noise, maybe the current community manager ( Xiola ) might take into consideration of this forum' past, but that would mean she needs to jump back 4 years and check what happened back then and re-evaluate everything which has happened since regarding Void. Seems very unlikely to me. It's also too little too late to make Void change her decision, even if LL would contact her about this matter. Coaxing Void to return here is not my goal .. not in the least. In fact Void's reaction has zero correlation to LL's responsibility to apologize for their failure to take her seriously and clean things up. An apology is owed, no matter what might come of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Darrius Gothly wrote: An apology is owed, no matter what might come of it. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that apology will ever be given in these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 TDD123 wrote: Darrius Gothly wrote: An apology is owed, no matter what might come of it. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that apology will ever be given in these forums. The possibility of repayment has no bearing whatsoever on the debt owed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Darrius Gothly wrote: The possibility of repayment has no bearing whatsoever on the debt owed. Merely speaking for myself here : LL, this forum or its moderation owe me nothing. I have always accepted that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Darrius Gothly wrote: TDD123 wrote: Darrius Gothly wrote: An apology is owed, no matter what might come of it. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that apology will ever be given in these forums. The possibility of repayment has no bearing whatsoever on the debt owed. Agree. As merchants and business people ourselves, we know it goes a long way with our customers when we 1) recognize and 2) fix something we have done wrong (usually perms!). Void's departure was simply a shocking milestone on the long downward slide. If it was wrong to censure her, then it should be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Pamela Galli wrote: (snip) ... it was wrong to censure her, (then) it should be said. It has been said ( by users ) many times. One could try starting a fresh thread about it. But : how likely is it any LL representative will answer it and wouldn't that be against ToS/CG ( questioning moderation ) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 TDD123 wrote: [snip] ... and wouldn't that be against ToS/CG ( questioning moderation ) ? Yup. But some times the Right thing to do is not the same as the Lawful (ruleful?) thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Right or wrong : any rule can be ignored or broken .. :robotwink: I'm just not good at starting threads .. :robotindifferent: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Darrius Gothly wrote: TDD123 wrote: As stated before elsewhere by others ... Void was not lost or banned. [snip] According to Void's own words, she departed these forums for good. That falls under my definition of "Lost". True enough, she did not depart SL nor the planet, but for the purposes of this thread and based on her own words, she has been lost to those people that come here for help, advice and guidance. Now, can you honestly tell me that's NOT a loss? This speaks to her Integrity. I am in agreement with you Darrius, while Void was not the only talent that gave freely here, her singular abilities have been missed, and we all would have been a lot better off had she remained. About a month after Void posted her letter that went ignored by LL I was contacted by Rodvik's lickspittle Viale Linden to have an in-world meeting to try and sort out some of the issues that people here were in an uproar about, mainly the state of the moderation and Void's case was on the top of the list. I contacted Void and asked her if she would like to accompany me to the meeting but she declined, deciding to wash her hands of the situation. The outcome of the meeting was fruitless, as you all can see or remember, nothing changed, we were still treated with disrespect here by the mods and LL and their attitude, reminiscent of the old "The peasants are revolting!" joke, has still not changed. Prior to Christmas, some of you may know, Caitlin Tobias, was forced to go to Ebbe on Twitter to get her case resolved. Xiola is now the 4th or 5th individual tasked with dealing with the problems, since Void's departure, associated with the Forums, the GD specifically and I wait to see how successful she is or whether she will be like the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Theresa Tennyson wrote: I'm not saying honest criticism isn't useful; just that forums aren't. For every piece of useful information you'll have to filter out a huge pile of sidetracks, personal conflicts, utter ignorance and Rick Astley videos. It's like straining a litterbox, only the proportion of reusable material to crap is reversed. Maybe that's why there are so many cat pictures... And after all of that you won't see what your customers think; you'll see what the users of your forum think. Look at any news article - say there are three hundred comments on it. That will represent one-one-millionth of the population of the United States, and in fact a self-selected one-one-millionth that is almost entirely made up of trolls and idiots. Maybe that is true, but ..... As a creator, I don't have that many people freely giving me advice or criticism. Even if they are totally wrong, big deal, it's still more data to tag and put into the files. Sometimes, all it takes is 1 little comment to spark a whole different way of looking at a problem. You have to be open to that criticism tho. Just as a funny example. Today, while doing my daily routines, I listened to 1 CEO on a podcast, saw a couple CEOs tweet stuff, watched Epic's Ceo on a Youtube video posted today giving away money to Unreal content devs that make cool stuff, and talked personally with 3 CEOs on skype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: Darrius Gothly wrote: TDD123 wrote: As stated before elsewhere by others ... Void was not lost or banned. [snip] According to Void's own words, she departed these forums for good. That falls under my definition of "Lost". True enough, she did not depart SL nor the planet, but for the purposes of this thread and based on her own words, she has been lost to those people that come here for help, advice and guidance. Now, can you honestly tell me that's NOT a loss? This speaks to her Integrity. I am in agreement with you Darrius, while Void was not the only talent that gave freely here, her singular abilities have been missed, and we all would have been a lot better off had she remained. About a month after Void posted her letter that went ignored by LL I was contacted by Rodvik's lickspittle Viale Linden to have an in-world meeting to try and sort out some of the issues that people here were in an uproar about, mainly the state of the moderation and Void's case was on the top of the list. I contacted Void and asked her if she would like to accompany me to the meeting but she declined, deciding to wash her hands of the situation. The outcome of the meeting was fruitless, as you all can see or remember, nothing changed, we were still treated with disrespect here by the mods and LL and their attitude, reminiscent of the old "The peasants are revolting!" joke, has still not changed. Prior to Christmas, some of you may know, Caitlin Tobias, was forced to go to Ebbe on Twitter to get her case resolved. Xiola is now the 4th or 5th individual tasked with dealing with the problems, since Void's departure, associated with the Forums, the GD specifically and I wait to see how successful she is or whether she will be like the rest. I would also like to add that an apology here in the forum to Void will probably not bring her back to us, and may not give her any satisfaction at this late date, as she stated herself that one wasn't wanted. However LL needs to take responsibility for depriving US of one of OUR assets and the apology would be a step in the right direction in demonstrating that WE deserve some respect and are of value to LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: ... the apology would be a step in the right direction in demonstrating that WE deserve some respect and are of value to LL. Don't mean to be crass, but I just HAVE to ask : .... or ... else ... WHAT ?!? Void's contributions were voluntarily ( she knew that all too well ) and she played her best card to get no results in the end. I'm unconvinced you will fair any better if taking the same defenite stance ... :robotindifferent: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 TDD123 wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: ... the apology would be a step in the right direction in demonstrating that WE deserve some respect and are of value to LL. Don't mean to be crass, but I just HAVE to ask : .... or ... else ... WHAT ?!? Void's contributions were voluntarily ( she knew that all too well ) and she played her best card to get no results in the end. I'm unconvinced you will fair any better if taking the same defenite stance ... :robotindifferent: The staus quo will remain and the sheep will continue to blindly accept their treatment. You have to wonder at what makes a person put up with humiliating indifference at the hands of those they empower. I for one will not accept it. Shortly after the debacle of late 2011 and early 2012 I left SL deleting this account. Not just because of the nonsense associated with the forum mind you, as other personal reasons were in play, but dealing with the issues here certainly contributed to it in a large measure. In that year I was away I did not miss the place in the least. Perhaps my remaining strands of optimism and hope that improvement is possible here has brought me back for one last try to effect real change for the better. But I will be honest/realistic about it. LL really dosen't have a reason to acquiesce do they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: LL really dosen't have a reason to acquiesce do they. Exactly, but foremost .. they haven't got any obligation towards 'us' as well. It's not just LL who acts like this. As an example ( quite unrelated to these forums ) : Google acts the very same way. I own a Nexus 7 2013 ed. tablet. Google promised Nexus devices are always first to have their latest Android-updates. Since Lollipop's arrival in November 2014 other brands received this update sooner than my Google device. Had to wait 4 months for it. Kicked against shins of Google in their forums. Post after post. Complaint after complaint. Along with many other users. We were angry. Mad even. Posts revoked / moderated. Not one answer ... ever ... Until they just sneakily shoved the update without any form of anouncement. That's how companies work .. for me. They might comply. They will not answer when need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 TDD123 wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: LL really dosen't have a reason to acquiesce do they. Exactly, but foremost .. they haven't got any obligation towards 'us' as well. It's not just LL who acts like this. As an example ( quite unrelated to these forums ) : Google acts the very same way. I own a Nexus 7 2013 ed. tablet. Google promised Nexus devices to have latest Android-updates. Since Lollipop's arrival in November 2014 other brands received this update sooner than my Google device. Had to wait 4 months for it. Kicked against shins of Google in their forums. Post after post. Complaint after complaint. Along with many other users. We were angry. Mad even. Posts revoked / moderated. Not one answer ... ever ... Until they just sneakily shoved the update without any form of anouncement. That's how companies work .. for me. They might comply. They will not answer when need be. Mine is an S5 and we still haven't received it. lol You do not need to tell me the state of the customer/business relationship, as we all tend to deal with it on a daily basis. The culture has shifted from when once customers were an acknowledged patron of a business treated with respect and appreciation for having chosen that particualr entity in which to deal with, to one in which customers are now made to feel as though we are the ones who should feel priveledged to be allowed to do business with them! My favourite example, living in Canada is with Rogers, my ISP as well as phone and cable, who lease out bandiwdth to smaller companies to sell so that if you threaten to change providers they basically yawn and say oh well because in the end you are still dealing with them. So while I agree, they don't feel they have any obligation towards us, goddamit they should! And not the tranparently patronizing dross of appearing to value our conributions to their existence. It's insulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: Mine is an S5 and we still haven't received it. lol I highly recommend installing Cyanogenmod ( nightlies ). Derek Torvalar wrote: So while I agree, they don't feel they have any obligation towards us, goddamit they should! And not the tranparently patronizing dross of appearing to value our conributions to their existence. It's insulting. I understand. It's like being told 'Have a nice day !' while the contrary is obvious. As a last point, which others have made already and I already discussed this elsewhere : it is unrealistic to assume LL will invest more and more in forum-moderation since these efforts will never be profitable to them. I'd sooner expect them to close these forums down altogether before complying to any demand from the user-base. The demands made will cost them resources and money. They will not let that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 TDD123 wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: Mine is an S5 and we still haven't received it. lol I highly recommend installing Cynagenmod ( nightlies ). Derek Torvalar wrote: So while I agree, they don't feel they have any obligation towards us, goddamit they should! And not the tranparently patronizing dross of appearing to value our conributions to their existence. It's insulting. I understand. It's like being told 'Have a nice day !' while the contrary is obvious. As a last point, which others have made already and I already discussed this elsewhere : it is unrealistic to assume LL will invest more and more in forum-moderation since these efforts will never be profitable to them. I'd sooner expect them to close these forums down altogether before complying to any demand from the user-base. The demands made will cost them resources and money. They will not let that happen. It isn't necessarily that more moderation is needed. What is required is for it to be attenuated and be pro-active. Clearing the nonsense posts out of GD, directing those posters to the proper areas, not just when there is a commercial break in Maury or whatever soap they happen to be watching or after they have given their toddler their bath, taking the boot off the necks of those who happen to disagree with another poster in a passionate manner, espousing the arguments in a manner that they see fit that allows them their personal expression. Je suis Charlie, remember, or was all that just posturing fluff. I was one of a group of individuals who, when it was announced that LL had chosen Lithium as the software for the forum, did a 'burn in' over at the Lithium site, so understand why, what most now have seem to have forgotten is the reason LL chose this software, which was articulated by Void in her letter to Rodvik and alluded to by McMasters, in her round-about fashion, and demonstrated recently by Val in another thread, that we are the unpaid skilled labourers tasked with solving issues related to SL amongst ourselves so they wouldn't have to deal with us on a daily basis. And as that is the case, then LL better acknowledge that, by showing their appreciation and respect for the work we do for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: (snip) ...we are the unpaid skilled labourers tasked with solving issues related to SL amongst ourselves so they wouldn't have to deal with us on a daily basis. And as that is the case, then LL better acknowledge that, by showing their appreciation and respect for the work we do for them. Xiola might answer this for you. Have a nice day, Derek. ( No, really .. genuine wish .. :robottongue: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: TDD123 wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: Mine is an S5 and we still haven't received it. lol I highly recommend installing Cynagenmod ( nightlies ). Derek Torvalar wrote: So while I agree, they don't feel they have any obligation towards us, goddamit they should! And not the tranparently patronizing dross of appearing to value our conributions to their existence. It's insulting. I understand. It's like being told 'Have a nice day !' while the contrary is obvious. As a last point, which others have made already and I already discussed this elsewhere : it is unrealistic to assume LL will invest more and more in forum-moderation since these efforts will never be profitable to them. I'd sooner expect them to close these forums down altogether before complying to any demand from the user-base. The demands made will cost them resources and money. They will not let that happen. It isn't necessarily that more moderation is needed. What is required is for it to be attenuated and be pro-active. Clearing the nonsense posts out of GD, directing those posters to the proper areas, not just when there is a commercial break in Maury or whatever soap they happen to be watching or after they have given their toddler their bath, taking the boot off the necks of those who happen to disagree with another poster in a passionate manner, espousing the arguments in a manner that they see fit that allows them their personal expression. Je suis Charlie, remember, or was all that just posturing fluff. I was one of a group of individuals who, when it was announced that LL had chosen Lithium as the software for the forum, did a 'burn in' over at the Lithium site, so understand why, what most now have seem to have forgotten is the reason LL chose this software, which was articulated by Void in her letter to Rodvik and alluded to by McMasters, in her round-about fashion, and demonstrated recently by Val in another thread, that we are the unpaid skilled labourers tasked with solving issues related to SL amongst ourselves so they wouldn't have to deal with us on a daily basis. And as that is the case, then LL better acknowledge that, by showing their appreciation and respect for the work we do for them. And just in conclusion here, the case of Caitlin Tobias I mentioned, the fact that 4 years after the incident with Void and another case I had a personal hand in Celestiall's, that Caity would be forced to accost the CEO on Twitter to get a successful resolution to her issue speaks volumes about the business culture and competence here. I know that if I were CEO I would want to publicly project an open door policy to my customers but privately I would be tearing someone down the line a new one for not dealing with this sort of thing before it embarassed me on a public third party site. I mean I would have more important things to do than dealing with these petty issues. Like making my 10:30 tee time at Pebble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: I know that if I were CEO I would want to publicly project an open door policy to my customers but privately I would be tearing someone down the line a new one for not dealing with this sort of thing before it embarassed me on a public third party site. I mean I would have more important things to do than dealing with these petty issues. Like making my 10:30 tee time at Pebble. This is one of the things if I have read between the lines correctly that Ebbe has had to deal with. Linden's were not empowered to deal with issues. In fact they were specifically not allowed to. And if a mistake is made we have no idea whom to contact. I also have the impression, again from reading between the lines, that it is bad MoJo at the lab to stick one's nose into someone else's area of responsibility, especially when it comes to Governance. One of the things that I pointed out to Xiola in the Boring thread is that many times when a legitimate problem comes to the Forum it's because it has gone on too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Perrie Juran wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: I know that if I were CEO I would want to publicly project an open door policy to my customers but privately I would be tearing someone down the line a new one for not dealing with this sort of thing before it embarassed me on a public third party site. I mean I would have more important things to do than dealing with these petty issues. Like making my 10:30 tee time at Pebble. This is one of the things if I have read between the lines correctly that Ebbe has had to deal with. Linden's were not empowered to deal with issues. In fact they were specifically not allowed to. And if a mistake is made we have no idea whom to contact. I also have the impression, again from reading between the lines, that it is bad MoJo at the lab to stick one's nose into someone else's area of responsibility, especially when it comes to Governance. One of the things that I pointed out to Xiola in the Boring thread is that many times when a legitimate problem comes to the Forum it's because it has gone on too long. It would be interesting to see a hierarchal map of the corporate structure. Does one exist anywhere online? Clearly the channels of communication within that structure need to be rewired or flushed out. ETA Perhaps it has been the shift in culture within the corporate world, especially in the IT/Software realms, away from strict adherence to hierarchy. Things like the evolution towards open office environments and fluid departmental overlaps that has contributed to the diffusion of responsibility such that the customer relations in this case has suffered due to its misapplication. Or has the neglect of the customer become a latent effect of this shift towards making the work environment a more pleasurable experience in the hope of increasing productivity and creativity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: I know that if I were CEO I would want to publicly project an open door policy to my customers but privately I would be tearing someone down the line a new one for not dealing with this sort of thing before it embarassed me on a public third party site. I mean I would have more important things to do than dealing with these petty issues. Like making my 10:30 tee time at Pebble. This is one of the things if I have read between the lines correctly that Ebbe has had to deal with. Linden's were not empowered to deal with issues. In fact they were specifically not allowed to. And if a mistake is made we have no idea whom to contact. I also have the impression, again from reading between the lines, that it is bad MoJo at the lab to stick one's nose into someone else's area of responsibility, especially when it comes to Governance. One of the things that I pointed out to Xiola in the Boring thread is that many times when a legitimate problem comes to the Forum it's because it has gone on too long. It would be interesting to see a hierarchal map of the corporate structure. Does one exist anywhere online? Clearly the channels of communication within that structure need to be rewired or flushed out. I doubt if the hierarchy has many levels. It's not like LL has that many employees and departments. What it comes down to is actually being interested in the Residents and not be focused only on the product. If something can only be fixed by a Linden, then a Linden should be able to step in and help, especially when Basic Support has failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 TDD123 wrote: As a last point, which others have made already and I already discussed this elsewhere : it is unrealistic to assume LL will invest more and more in forum-moderation since these efforts will never be profitable to them. I'd sooner expect them to close these forums down altogether before complying to any demand from the user-base. The demands made will cost them resources and money. They will not let that happen. IMO This is the sentiment that is rapidly sinking small to large businesses .. in the USA and elsewhere. It's a simple fact that absolutely everything an employee does, touches, inhales or excretes costs the company money. The mere fact of having employees is costly .. possibly massively costly. But ... The true intelligence behind proper business management is recognizing the expenses that are overhead and must be borne without complaint, expenses that are investments and will (eventually) provide a monetary return, and expenses that are wasteful and inevitably useless. Modern business ethics .. as taught by most MBA programs and OJT by existing business manager types ... teaches that employees and customers are in effect combinations of overhead and waste but NEVER are they even minor investments. As a result, businesses get caught in the "minimize and optimize" death spiral that forces them to make more and more cuts among the employee base. They toss out highly-paid people as waste then hire in less experienced and very much cheaper workers that eventually wind up in contact with customers. When that happens, in ANY form and not just customer service, the cheap labor force lives up to its promise ("You get what you pay for.") and the customers begin to grow in anger, frustration and disgust. Eventually some leave, but Management reports that the monetary losses were properly covered by firing high-paid people and hiring cheap employees. Lather .. Rinse .. Repeat .. What we are doing here, by continually pushing LL to climb higher on the morality ladder, by shouting at them when they do something very dumb, by stomping on their toes when they forget that it is CUSTOMERS that are the true product of any company (and especially any company that depends on purely virtual content to sell) .. we are attempting to make sure that LL does not fall into that same fiery pit. We have had successes. Do not allow yourself to continue believing that "it's a lost cause" .. because it is not. From time to time LL has indeed listened, fixed mistakes and even resolved internally not to do that stupid stunt again (whatever the stupid stunt was that got us Customers all ticked off). So your defeatist attitude is misplaced, unwarranted, and based not on the reality of this dynamic but more likely on experiences you've had outside of SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 FWIW http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Linden-Lab-Reviews-E100549.htm Was this your source Perrie? I LOLed at 'incestuous'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Darrius Gothly wrote: TDD123 wrote: As stated before elsewhere by others ... Void was not lost or banned. [snip] According to Void's own words, she departed these forums for good. That falls under my definition of "Lost". True enough, she did not depart SL nor the planet, but for the purposes of this thread and based on her own words, she has been lost to those people that come here for help, advice and guidance. Someone threw a temper trantrum when policy was enforced against them - and it matters not how rightly or wrongly that was, then demanded a public apology, never got it, and left. Such demand somewhat demonstrates why the place is better without such characters. Adults need to get over their own senses of entitlement and move on when things like that occur. To this person's credit - they at least are not one of the ones constantly throwing temper trantrums over it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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