Venus Petrov Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 LlazarusLlong wrote: TDD123 wrote: /me crosses his arms over his chest. You want constructive feedback ? Ok : You'd better lock this threat right now before your superiors will tell you to. That's the only way it can be stopped. Until you eventually decide to ban those causing all of this ... like your predecessors have. :robotindifferent. This is presumably an excellent example of a PRIC. (That's a Public Report of Inappropriate Content, of course.) OK, I lol'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Perrie Juran wrote: irihapeti wrote: Xiola, <snip> about LL communication via blogs and forum mechanics Is a (flow) disconnect between the blogs and the conversation. Like a blog post is made and comments on it are locked. There is usually a link to a forum thread in the blog post where the convo is thats the flow disconnect Or the other thing that happens is several people will see a Blog post and start separate threads about it. That can cause even more confusion. I suppose the most convenient way to handle it would be to allow comments on the blog, as irihapeti has suggested. Nevertheless, I see no reason why they couldn't post to the blog and, within that very post, link to an official thread in the forum where they've included a complete copy of original the blog post in the OP for reference. At least that way there'd be one official place to have the discussion and not just random threads started by random people (we'll probably get those anyway... but at least that way we could point those who start related threads to the official one). It may not be the perfect solution, but it's better than not allowing comments on blog post and not supplying an official thread to communicate with users about that post. Of course, this depends entirely upon LL's willingness to even communicate with their users about their post. I don't really care which way they do it, just that they do it more often. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Celestiall Nightfire wrote: Xiola Linden wrote: LlazarusLlong wrote: Xiola Linden wrote: if you feel that a mistake or misunderstanding was made, the best route is to contact support so it can be reviewed. How? Via the support portal here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/How-to-contact-customer-support/ta-p/739385 Xiola, I know you're trying to help. But, the support portal not only doesn't have a software path for forum help, but, the support staff aren't able to help for issues here. I know, as I've tried it! We often try to send forum private messages to the moderation team, but if one's banned from here, we can't even do that. The last time I got banned, I originally couldn't find the email that was supposed to be sent to be telling me why. So, I chatted with Live Chat support and they suggested that I file a ticket. They told me specifically which category to file it under, but I forget which one they suggested. What I'm saying is, it can be done. Unfortunately, I've no idea if they could have actually assisted me with my issue (which was specifically that I hadn't received the email and didn't know why I was banned), because right after I filed the ticket, I went back and looked, only to find that my email client had sorted it into a folder which I hadn't expected... so, since I did get it, I immediately closed the ticket myself. I've never tried contesting a banning through the support system, so I've no idea if the process would be as futile as you suggest... but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aislin Ceawlin Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Perhaps "Undead giveaway"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LlazarusLlong Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Aislin Ceawlin wrote: Perhaps "Undead giveaway"??? No, that's when a zombie offers to lend you a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Xiola Linden wrote: Hello all, This thread has been a very interesting read - and I wanted to touch on a few things as well as to ask some questions about what you feel would make the forums a more interesting place for all Second Life Residents. In regards to moderation - the moderators do their best in helping to uphold the ToS and Community Participation Guidelines, however if you feel that a mistake or misunderstanding was made, the best route is to contact support so it can be reviewed. One thing we'd like to do is start more threads that will allow feedback on announcements here in the forums, but it sounds like you may have some additional ideas about what you would like to see and what you think would make the forums more interesting. What other channels do you think may help contribute to the community here as well? We appreciate your constructive feedback! Well hello, Xiola! That's such a pretty name, so much better than "Community". I gotta ask... why on Earth LL would want to make the forums more interesting for all Second Life Residents? Those very few of us who frequent the forums do so at the expense of frequenting SL. So long as there are just we few, potentially offering help to a larger (but still small) number of residents who rarely visit, everything is fine. The moment you make this place attractive to all, you've created a non-profit competitor for your for-profit product. Others are already doing that, and they're doing it better. There's been little evidence that LL understands either the value or methodology of running forums in support of the business. The Answers sections seems to have been designed with the intent to prevent residents from solving each other's problems. The moment you post a question there, you are discouraged, if not prevented, from participating further. If I post an answer and it doesn't work, your only recourse is to post a hidden "Permalink", and most people don't even know they can do that. It takes a special kind of corporate incompetence to deploy such broken tools, and it will take significant effort on LL's part to convince us (or at least me) that they're committed to and capable of supporting their customers. Had LL not effectively abandoned the knowledge base and wiki, there might not much need for the forums as a support mechanism. And I may be imagining there's any need at all, simply to convince myself I'm useful. Even with moribund support documentation, we field barely a dozen questions per day over in Answers. Much of those might be eliminated if the SL website were friendlier to those with questions. We often direct residents to the Firestorm support pages, because they shows signs of life. As a social platform, LL already hinted that the forums were passe by producing the Profile Feed. That tool has never worked very well. I don't think it was well designed or well implemented. As the public face of the SL community, the forums and feed have never seemed terribly flattering. Rodvik was harassed out of the forums and off his own feed in a display of corporate social ineptitude that I found particularly telling. Ebbe has done better, but he too has effectively abandoned his own products, posting announcments on Twitter and Facebook (or so I've heard), a platform that doesn't (knowingly) allow SL avatars to join. At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down? Then give serious thought to the kinds of social and technical support structures that best support the residents, and therefore the business. And do understand that those structures will not support the residents if you don't support the structures... visibly. Your participation here is a step forward... on a path that may not lead anywhere. It may be time to get out a map, or a globe. ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Dresden Ceriano wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: irihapeti wrote: Xiola, <snip> about LL communication via blogs and forum mechanics Is a (flow) disconnect between the blogs and the conversation. Like a blog post is made and comments on it are locked. There is usually a link to a forum thread in the blog post where the convo is thats the flow disconnect Or the other thing that happens is several people will see a Blog post and start separate threads about it. That can cause even more confusion. ... I see no reason why they couldn't post to the blog and, within that very post, link to an official thread in the forum where they've included a complete copy of original the blog post in the OP for reference. At least that way there'd be one official place to have the discussion ... It may not be the perfect solution, but it's better than not allowing comments on blog post and not supplying an official thread to communicate with users about that post. Of course, this depends entirely upon LL's willingness to even communicate with their users about their post. I don't really care which way they do it, just that they do it more often. ...Dres Dres your suggestion for LL to post the text of the blog entry into the thread starter post is the perfect solution. Perfect meaning most practical. It dont require any software changes and doesnt affect the way forum users already use the software if do this then the blog article can remain locked of comments. For those who read blog articles same as they do newspapers and arent interested in Letters to the Editor for those who are interested in Letters to the Editor then they can come to the forums where the article has been reproduced to better enable the flow of the conversation i vote for this way + about the point made by Perry starting multiple threads on the same blog article this issue in most other forums is dealt with by a mod who is following the conversation. The mod just locks the thread with the comment: Conversation on this topic is here: [ link ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LlazarusLlong Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Venus Petrov wrote: OK, I lol'ed. Thanks Venus, it's good to be reassured that I haven't lost it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: ... I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down? Snugs, you are such a sinner. Maddy is so going to put you in the fire for this (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 LlazarusLlong wrote: Venus Petrov wrote: OK, I lol'ed. Thanks Venus, it's good to be reassured that I haven't lost it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LlazarusLlong Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Perhaps it sounds like Venus in Dutch . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down? Then give serious thought to the kinds of social and technical support structures that best support the residents, and therefore the business. And do understand that those structures will not support the residents if you don't support the structures... visibly. Not sure what kind of alternative structures you mean but... As a merchant (who earns her living in SL) I have always depended on the merchant forum for developments, news, alerts, warnings, information, surveys, JIRA links, etc. As a mesh/Blender learner, I have very heavily depended on the mesh forum and its many generous helpers - I cannot imagine how I would ever have learned Blender without this vital resource. The General and various technical forums help me keep abreast of various things my customers may be experiencing (many do look to me for SL support), as well as educate me regarding a number of issues, technical or not. I get very little of this while I am actually logged into SL, since I am either building or doing customer service then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikka Luik Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Certain aspects of the overall sub sections - yes. I refer to them as well. They are of use and merchant/creation/answers even 'wanted' - very much so. As for alternative structures I do not believe this is a genuine attempt now. The Lab has email - we get the odd one so it must still work. It has to have a better return on effort through sheer numbers than 'reaching' here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. ;-). Yes there are a lot fewer spammers making accounts now it would seem. That said, why do so many people still believe that employees who work in one area somehow magically have the skills to work in another... ? Or even that every resource used in one way detracts from those used in others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Pamela Galli wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down? Then give serious thought to the kinds of social and technical support structures that best support the residents, and therefore the business. And do understand that those structures will not support the residents if you don't support the structures... visibly. Not sure what kind of alternative structures you mean but... As a merchant (who earns her living in SL) I have always depended on the merchant forum for developments, news, alerts, warnings, information, surveys, JIRA links, etc. As a mesh/Blender learner, I have very heavily depended on the mesh forum and its many generous helpers - I cannot imagine how I would ever have learned Blender without this vital resource. The General and various technical forums help me keep abreast of various things my customers may be experiencing (many do look to me for SL support), as well as educate me regarding a number of issues, technical or not. I get very little of this while I am actually logged into SL, since I am either building or doing customer service then. I'm not sure just what kind of structures I mean either, but I imagine that the support forums would benefit from a more wiki-ish approach that allowed collaborative construction of support documentation. The SL wiki (is it open again?) provided that facility, but wasn't much used. LL might investigate ways to wake that up again. I haven't wandered the KB and Wiki much, but it seems that the root documents are out of date and the comments are ignored. I've participated in several professional/technical forums that had facilities for capturing the accumulated wisdom of the members, whether in the form of a "stickies", a wiki or "hot lists". Knowing you could contribute nuance to existing answers to often asked questions was certainly more motivating than having to completely re-answer the question. Those forums were entirely community driven, there was no business to support, and they worked reasonably well. And that may be because the members motivated each other to contribute. If LL is going to sit on its behind, why should anyone else stand up? In user run communities, there's no question the community appreciates the... users. That's a clear problem for LL. I have no doubt you've benefited from the technical forums, but I have to wonder how many others have. SL has a far larger resident population than the little tech forums I've inhabited over the years, yet it generates less traffic than any of them. It's much harder to make the case for the social sections of the forum (People, Places and Events, Official Contests). The bulk of the SL population is completely unaware of the forums, as they have no questions to be answered and don't go looking for support (that's how I found the forums five years ago). If they want to find a cool place to visit, they check the Destination Guide. I doubt they even stop to wonder if there's an out-world source for such information. I'd not be surprised if closing the social sections of the forum had no effect on SL. Pam, I'm certainly not saying I see no personal value in the forums. I spend nearly all of my SL related time here. I am, however, wondering how that benefits LL. Rather than LL working on ways to make the forums more interesting to SL residents, I simply think they should focus on making SL more interesting to SL residents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Pussycat Catnap wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. ;-). Yes there are a lot fewer spammers making accounts now it would seem. That said, why do so many people still believe that employees who work in one area somehow magically have the skills to work in another... ? Or even that every resource used in one way detracts from those used in others... Oops, my number was in error. It's 10,000 per day! http://taterunino.net/statcharts/weeklysignups400.jpg Is it better to think that companies should tailor their products and services to the capabilities of their employees? or to think that resources are not finite? LL may have evidence to prove the value of the forums and feeds. If so, fine. I'm simply wondering if they know the value of the thing they're investing in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Ceawlin Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, .. Oops, my number was in error. It's 10,000 per day! http://taterunino.net/statcharts/weeklysignups400.jpgWut? That chart shows new signups over the last week. How does that translate to "losing more than 10,000 new signups per week"? http://taterunino.net/statcharts/signupsperday400.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, .. Oops, my number was in error. It's 10,000 per day! http://taterunino.net/statcharts/weeklysignups400.jpgWut? That chart shows new signups over the last week. How does that translate to "losing more than 10,000 new signups per week"? http://taterunino.net/statcharts/signupsperday400.jpgWell, if the 10,000 who signup every day were sticking around, concurrency should be increasing, right? It's not... http://taterunino.net/statcharts/median_conc_by_day400.jpg So, it's fair to assume that SL is losing more people than it's gaining. They're not the same people, but that doesn't matter. On the bright side, Rodvik once bragged that LL was getting over 20K new signups/day (which I read as losing > 20,000/day as concurrency was in decline for the entirety of Rodvik's tenure). So things are looking up! ETA: If anyone wonders why LL doesn't advertise, a negative conversion rate would be a nifty explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DejaHo Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 You sought a oneness in a world that advocates diversity. And you won it. (scratches his head) Now you seek to destroy it. (scratches his head) To what end will satiate your lust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 DejaHo wrote: You sought a oneness in a world that advocates diversity. And you won it. (scratches his head) Now you seek to destroy it. (scratches his head) To what end will satiate your lust? I'll leave that to your imagination, as I always have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DejaHo Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: DejaHo wrote: You sought a oneness in a world that advocates diversity. And you won it. (scratches his head) Now you seek to destroy it. (scratches his head) To what end will satiate your lust? I'll leave that to your imagination, as I always have. Your forum, my imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 The product of McMasters' contribution thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LlazarusLlong Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Derek Torvalar wrote: The product of McMasters' contribution thus far. Even with an Infinite Improbability Drive, Douglas was unable to find a use for lint. (Have you ever wondered why, whatever colour the clothes are you put in a dryer, the lint is always grey?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Mistwood Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Madelaine McMasters wrote: {snip}Well hello, Xiola! That's such a pretty name, so much better than "Community".{snip} I think your name is prettier than Maddy thinks it is. *wonders how well flattery will work* {snip}I gotta ask... why on Earth LL would want to make the forums more interesting for all Second Life Residents? I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down?{snip} I am feeling sappy and sentimental right now. *passes out awkwardly long hugs and inappropriate wet kisses to all* An important aspect of SL is community and all the ways it can be expressed. The forums are a community and always have been. They add to the inworld experience for many instead of taking away from it. Like any community many different kinds of personalities congregate in one place to share ideas, complain or praise, debate, and pass on information and experiences. A small percentage of SL users may come here, but for them it is an important aspect of their second lives. The forums have the potential to be more if moderation is consistent and fair, but the fairness and consistency involves us as well. Instead of looking to mods to make what appears to be arbitrary decisions on content, I move that residents take control of their own personal boundaries. If you don't like the way a conversation is going, leave the conversation. Instead of deciding for other people what they should be allowed to read or who they should be allowed to read by RICing things that offend you, let others make up their minds about whether to engage in conversation. I know that is a bit simplistic and idealistic considering there is real and actual harassment beyond the sensitivities of a bit of ribbing and name calling. I just think RICing a thread should be a last resort. The reporting system is not used properly, but instead of getting rid of it completely, maybe those who are caught abusing it should be given a time-out. Warning #1 We have found your use of the reporting button to be unwarranted. Please reread the ToS/CS before using it again. Warning #2 We feel you are unable to handle the content of a certain thread. For your own good we are giving you a 2 day time-out. Warning #3 Really? Maybe you should find a different community. We are worried about your mental and emotional health. We are sending you on a 1 month all-expenses paid vacation inworld. Have fun! The point is that this (the forums) is a community with wealthy neighborhoods, teaching institutions, bad neighborhoods to be aware of. It contains the shy, the vain, the knowledgeable, the village idiot, that mean drunk uncle, the motherly figures, the new-age weirdos, those damn hipsters, and those that just don't get it. Who are we to decide who gets to live here? Want a more interesting forum? Let more differing opinions stay. Ease off the mods and be responsible for yourselves instead of looking to the heavy handed overlords to do it for you. Let the mods be the last resort not the first. Now get off my lawn! Do I have to say that all the "you" up there are general yous and not directed just at Maddy? I thought so... Cinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Ceawlin Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Can I be the mean drunk uncle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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