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Tallulah Bilavio

Outfits with Useless Shoes

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I have the Maitreya Lara Mesh Body and I love it.  My only real gripe is with clothing designers/makers who make outfits with appliers that will make them work with the Lara Body but include shoes that only work with Slink feet!

The Lara Body has perfectly lovely feet so why would I want to buy another pair? This means of course that all the shoes in these outfits are useless to me.  Some shoes are wearable with Slink and Belleza but not the Lara Body.  Why cant they be made wearable for all or certainly the ones for which the outfit is wearable?

This is all rather annoying since I'm paying the same price for the outfit but can only wear half of it.

I would just like to know the thinking behind this because I am not going to be sheep herded into buying every foot on the market!

 

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Tallulah Bilavio wrote:

Why cant they be made wearable for all or certainly the ones for which the outfit is wearable?

This is all rather annoying since I'm paying the same price for the outfit but can only wear half of it.

I would just like to know the thinking behind this because I am not going to be sheep herded into buying every foot on the market!

 

Simple.  To put it bluntly, all this mesh replacement part crap is utter madness!

You're asking creators to go back and re-edit over and over just to retrofit each time a new "best in SL" as each creator will claim, body part comes along.

Mesh has gone through enough ridiculous phases that as far as i'm concerned, it was badly implemented in the first phase, we had to wait too long for a solution that aimed at fixing sizing issues and the one we were offered doesn't work well at all.

Now it seems that everyone wants to make a replacement this or that and then customers wonder why a product created prior to the new things suddenly doesn't work as they expect. 

Mesh replacment parts, bodies most notably are a joke when it comes to alpha needs as you're limited to the panels offered by an alpha hud, there's no common scripting mechansim so it fundamentally breaks anything scripted for RLV for example, where scripted clothing control is desired.

So, i'm not getting at you but that's why, the mesh market has turned to fragmentation and frustration and has basically turned to crap.

I've given up making anything because the amount of effort to meet customer expectations, far exceeds the return on investment of my time and that's not that the customer expectations are unreasonable.  The questions that you asked are fair to you, you just want to pay money and have stuff that works for you but it can't reasonably be met in all cases without massive effort and constant re-visiting and re-working of existing products and that is an unsustainable expectation of a merchant.

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Hi Sassy

Thanks for your reply and I understand what you are saying and it is fair comment.  I can see how a merchant cant cover every choice out there.  

From my completely "know nothing of clothes making" point of view however, it is maddening to find an outfit compatible with my body and then find the shoes are for Slink only and feel i am being strong armed into buying Slink High and Slink Mid to cover the situation.  I just feel that's not right.  The shoes should fit as the outfit does.

Until something is worked out tho, I suppose I will be going out in a Frankenstein mix of Maitreya and Slink (if i buy the feet) or finding different shoes...sigh....

 

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I do completely understand your frustration, I really do.  As I said, it seems reasonable as a customer and that's why i've given up.  I strived to meet and exceed expectations and I can't reasonably do that anymore and I refuse to deliver disappointment.

LL really blew it all apart by acting too slowly and since they have no intention to change, all focus is on SL Next Gen or whatever they choose to call it.

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I am sure the designer decided to use shoes for Slink feet because they are the overwhelming popular choice for mesh feet in SL .   Maitreya could have made the feet compatible with Slink, but they have a vested interest not too, since they sell shoes too.

 

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I so understand your frustration,  as a consumer I too have been frustrated with situations like this.  As a designer myself,  I am always stuck with satisfying only a few when it comes to mesh anything!!  And that in itself is frustrating!   I had to decide, if I wanted to spend an extra 8 hrs or more on each mesh item I make just to make all the possible appliers that are out there for enlarged breasts, and butts,  shoes, and now even mesh for mesh bodies.. And weigh all that with the cost to me for putting it out there in time and my own linden investment for either purchasing ready made templates or uploading mesh files or both.  In the end I decided it was best for me to not get into all that.  

I design clothes because I enjoy the artistic side of it,  yes I love to make a few lindens on it as well,  but for me I make mesh clothing that can be worn by any average size avitar using a non mesh body,  if I include boots or shoes, they may be compatable with one of the more used mesh feet,  but also I try to make them so even those who don't own such feet can wear them as well, or sell the shoes/boots seperately.  I felt that was better than including something some may not be able to use.  I know full well that there are many in SL who won't purchase my clothing because I do not make all the appliers, but that was a decision I made to be able to keep my designing fun for me!  Otherwise it would become a tedious, boring chore which would probably not return enough in sales in the end to make it worth my while. 

Just my 2L on the issue lol

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With the bodies, designers can go Omega and satisfy every brand in SL except for Slink, TMP, and vStrings. So Omega is a very safe bet for skins and applier clothing.

BUT for feet and hands... the safe bet is instead Slink - because its so overwhelmingly present. Though being a closed system, this presents a hurdle of whatever approval process slink uses.

As far as I know, slink hands/feet can be worn with a Maitreya avatar.

Maitreya COULD launch a challenge to slink if that is so. Because it means that Maitreya hands/feet would fit on any body that can fit slink ones (if they are separate attachments, are they? I have it on an alt but actually forget how it all wears) - and the Maitreya hands/feet CAN use Omega appliers, though the alignment is not 100% perfect.

- but that challenge only really works for people who go barefeet, or for hands... because shoes are overwhelmingly made for slink now.

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Tallulah Bilavio wrote:

I have the Maitreya Lara Mesh Body and I love it.  My only real gripe is with clothing designers/makers who make outfits with appliers that will make them work with the Lara Body but include shoes that only work with Slink feet!

The Lara Body has perfectly lovely feet so why would I want to buy another pair? This means of course that all the shoes in these outfits are useless to me.  Some shoes are wearable with Slink and Belleza but not the Lara Body.  Why cant they be made wearable for all or certainly the ones for which the outfit is wearable?

This is all rather annoying since I'm paying the same price for the outfit but can only wear half of it.

I would just like to know the thinking behind this because I am not going to be sheep herded into buying every foot on the market!

 

"Appliers" only send a texture to "paint" a body/body part and they all work the same way; it isn't difficult to make a new applier. Shoes, on the other hand, have to be built and rigged to the foot - they can't change shape automagically. Different feet require different meshes. A lot of clothes makers don't have the skills and software necessary to make their own meshes. Most outfits I've seen that include shoes do so with shoes made from full-perm templates and Slink templates are by far the most common.

 

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BTW, as far as I know, Omega works with any of the breast implants that use tangos. As for the Fusion body, as far as I know, it works with them. I have the Genesis and Athletic bodies in that line. There was a problem with the Athletic because of the add-ons to the basic Genesis but I worked with Chell, the scripter behind Omega, and we fixed it. If there is a problem with any of the other parts, please let Chell know so she can fix it.

As for the Maitreya foot, it should be compatible with the Slink. I haven't had a problem  You might look for ones that are unrigged rather than rigged so you can reposition them. That being said, Slink has become the gold standard for the hands and feet like the Lola Tangos did for the breast implants.

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Thanks everyone for your replies which have been most helpful.  Now i can see the position a bit more from the viewpoint of the designer.  I still am not sure how you can make an outfit compatible with Maitreya but not the shoes but hey ho im learning every day.

Thanks for your help...hugs

 

 

Tally

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It's probable that they already had the shoes and did a new outfit for the body when the body came out and included shoes in the bundle. 

That's my guess anyway as it's the sort of thing that would happend if some new "best in SL" body comes out tomorrow.

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Most creators state in their listings and adverts that any shoe they sell is rigged for Slink (or whatever else they could be made for). If the advert didn't state the shoes were made to work with Slink, than I can understand the frustration. I personally wear Slink feet with my Maitreya body and prefer Slink shoes. I do understand that not everyone wants to spend time and lindens buying Slink feet when they already have beautiful Maitreya feet, but unfortunately Slink owns the feet (and hands) market and it makes sense to make shoes compatible with the feet used by the vast majority of consumers.

As a creator, I echo what a lot of other people have already said . . . its just unrealistic to expect creators to custom make clothing, especially things like shoes, for every mesh body part on the market. Considering how many mesh parts have been removed from sale over the last six months, it's a dangerous proposition in (in my opinion) to center your product around any one creator's body part. I exclude Slink from that because they are so widely owned and long standing. A creator has to be smart and decide how much time and effort they should reasonably put into supporting another creator's product. They also have to make sure that if a mesh body product disappears tomorrow, their inventory doesn't become worthless.

The mesh body parts fad is amazing and I love how they've improved my experience as a consumer but as a merchant they have doubled my creation process, tripled my customer support issues and make me question daily whether what I do is worth it - and it's all done at no additional profit (I don't sell appliers seperatly). So really it's frustrating all the way around.

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Sassy Romano wrote:


Tallulah Bilavio wrote:

Why cant they be made wearable for all or certainly the ones for which the outfit is wearable?

This is all rather annoying since I'm paying the same price for the outfit but can only wear half of it.

I would just like to know the thinking behind this because I am not going to be sheep herded into buying every foot on the market!

 

Simple.  To put it bluntly, all this mesh replacement part crap is utter madness!

You're asking creators to go back and re-edit over and over just to retrofit each time a new "best in SL" as each creator will claim, body part comes along.

Mesh has gone through enough ridiculous phases that as far as i'm concerned, it was badly implemented in the first phase, we had to wait too long for a solution that aimed at fixing sizing issues and the one we were offered doesn't work well at all.

Now it seems that everyone wants to make a replacement this or that and then customers wonder why a product created prior to the new things suddenly doesn't work as they expect. 

Mesh replacment parts, bodies most notably are a joke when it comes to alpha needs as you're limited to the panels offered by an alpha hud, there's no common scripting mechansim so it fundamentally breaks anything scripted for RLV for example, where scripted clothing control is desired.

So, i'm not getting at you but that's why, the mesh market has turned to fragmentation and frustration and has basically turned to crap.

I've given up making anything because the amount of effort to meet customer expectations, far exceeds the return on investment of my time and that's not that the customer expectations are unreasonable.  The questions that you asked are fair to you, you just want to pay money and have stuff that works for you but it can't reasonably be met in all cases without massive effort and constant re-visiting and re-working of existing products and that is an unsustainable expectation of a merchant.

Your post has facepalm written all over it. You seem like one of those people who thinks anything new is bad.

Mesh is superior to the crap known as "clothing layers" and the not-so-crap-but-outdated-anyways stuff known as "sculpties". If you like sweaters or shorts that look like they were painted on with a crayon then be my guest and continue to look like a 2008 noob. Some low-res tan skin + prim/flexi long hair + the ridiculous smile and big eyes + crayon shirt + prim/flexi skirt = instant noobification. Do you see any HD games nowadays that's not using mesh? I don't think so.

It's probably good that you've given up because I'm trying to imagine who still buys non-mesh clothes nowadays, other than appliers, which are still for mesh body parts. I can't really name a single well-known store that sells non-mesh clothing, and is making enough money to actually survive.

Also your argument of "constantly remaking stuff" is completey invalid, you probably have no idea what you're talking about. Here are some simple facts to correct yourself:

- Slink, and to a much lesser extent, Belleza, are the only feet that people use. Ncore feet and JD feet are pretty much limited to their own respective stores. Mesh feet are already considered a "basic" for anyone who even has the slightest sense of aesthetics, and everyone knows Slink is pretty much a monopoly here. There's only 1 kit, or 2 kits, that you have to get if you want to make shoes, I don't see any problem here?

- Every body except TMP is compatible with Omega applier system. All bodies use default SL clothing UV map. You don't have to re-create ANYTHING. Just insert your UUID into an applier hud and your clothing will work for all bodies

Unfortunately your opinion is pretty much worthless as 99% of the people I see in SL has at least one mesh replacement part, be it boobs or feet or body. Most people have at least half of their ugly SL body replaced.

And for all the designers complaining "you have to re-create stuff", if you're one who creates original mesh, then yes it means some extra work is needed to morph your existing model to fit new feet/bodies. But let's face it it's not that much work because I make some mesh myself because all you're doing is playing around with morphs. RL tailors need to spend time to make custom sizes too, no? As for all the kit-resellers there I seriously have no idea wtf you're complaining about when the same texture you made works for all bodies or shoes.

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Suki, it's a pity that you wrote so much while spectacularly failing to grasp one single element of my post. My writing is usually quite lucid, should I use even smaller words next time?

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Just an FYI...Slink and TMP are closed systems and not compatible with the Omega appliers. Just about every other female mesh body, breast and booty is compatible with the Omega system. This means that clothes makers make 3 huds, if they are doing TMP. If not, you are doing Slink and Omega and you're done for clothing. SKin gets a bit tricker because not everyone has the nipples in the same place and Belleza's hands and feet do not use the SL texture map.

With the mesh bodies, with each successive release, the alphas are getting better and better so that wearing them with mesh clothing is getting easier.

Guess what, though, there are still quite a few places that make system layers. I mix and match all the time. For instance, on an alt, I currently have a system cami, a mesh jacket and a flexi prim skirt. Since you have mesh clash with alphas, it's difficult, at times to wear a mesh tank under a mesh jacket and over a mesh skirt...you have cutting problems between the mesh parts or alpha clash. A judicious mix of system clothing mixed with prim and mesh can give you a gorgeous, polished look. Do keep in mind that the textures being used today are much better than they were 3 or more years ago so don't confuse the two.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Suki, it's a pity that you wrote so much while spectacularly failing to grasp one single element of my post. My writing is usually quite lucid, should I use even smaller words next time?

If you don't even understand what you wrote yourself then yeah maybe you should. Either that or you have a short term memory and don't even remember what you wrote.

Do you need a dictionary to look up what your own words mean? I'll translate them for you then.

"Simple.  To put it bluntly, all this mesh replacement part crap is utter madness!"

Mesh = crap + utter madness. Explain to me how I "didn't understand what you meant".

"You're asking creators to go back and re-edit over and over just to retrofit each time a new "best in SL" as each creator will claim, body part comes along."

What I understand: every time new mesh bodyparts come out you gotta remake stuff. Correct?

"So, i'm not getting at you but that's why, the mesh market has turned to fragmentation and frustration and has basically turned to crap."

So if mesh = crap and frustration, then by the process of elimination if you wanna create something it has to be clothing layers since you can't really make a sculptie dress. Unless you found something else besides mesh, sculpties, prims and clothing layers in SL?

Next time actually take the time to formulate an argument instead of just giving a pathetic comeback like "I didn't understand a single word of what you meant".

 


Mercedes Avon wrote:

You sound unnecessarily abrasive. Nowhere did Sassy claim system layers were superior to mesh.

 

You need to say the exact words to mean something? If I say something like "I hate all colours except pink" then it doesn't mean "I hate blue" right?

Refer to last bolded statement above and see if you decipher any other meaning from that statement.

 

What I'm tired of is people who says stuff like "mesh is crap" without even processing the thought through their brain. It's fine if you don't like mesh and prefer to look 5 years out of date, no one gives a crap, keep it to yourself because unfortunately for you mesh is 99% of the market right now. I see people while shopping who look like Ruth Linden's younger sister and I always assume they are newcomers. It's like parading around an internet forum and saying things like "I hate 3D games they're all crap" just because your computer is too crappy to handle it. All it does is make you look immature and idiotic.

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Honestly Suki, it's not even worth my time trying to educate you on this because I can't determine if  you're deliberately failing to read properly least of all understand what has been written or whether it's just the way that you read.

You fail to identify the subject in several sentences and are performing some entertaining linguistic gymanstics to form an argument which isn't even an argument.  It's amusing to watch but any attempt at correcting your mis-assumptions and derivations would just suck too much time.

Mercedes clearly understood that nowhere did I say that mesh was crap and that clothing layers were superior, you introduced that erroenous deduction.

Go back, slow down and read again, identify the actual subject of each sentence this time around...and think about the processes that are involved and how they're related to the timeline of the release of each item in question.

 

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Wow you really had a hard time understanding Sassy's point.  She never said mesh is crap. She said the way it has been implemented, and the results of that implementation, has made a mess out of the mesh fashion industry in SL -- has rendered it crap. NOT that mesh itself is crap. 

 

But then that has been spelled out for you already. 

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I think it a big shame you aren't making clothes any more, Sassy. Perhaps if it turned out to not be worth the time and effort you aren't charging enough?

Until recently I think you were the only person creating interactive applier clothing (and a lot of fun they are too). Even now the only other I can think of (Style Pantyhose) isn't rlv although a big step forward for sexy roleplaying.

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I have seen some shoes that claim to be compatible with slink, matraiya and another...it would make sense to me that you would simple "add" the shoe regardless of what "foot" you are wearing. So why couldnt they "fit" onto the mesh body? though I know there is madness in my logical desire because even trying to "add" the shoe if you are not wearing a slink foot for example results in the shoe not even being visible. I tried. very weird result.

Id like to make shoes that could be "added" to any mesh foot. I guess I do not understand the fundamentals well enough to know if what I am thinking is correct thinking.

I mean you can put a jacket on...do I understand from the conversation above that the jacket will only go on a lara body, and not any other mesh body? EKE! if thats the case, and I have been wondering as Ive seen mesh clothes that say they are for this body or that body...implying that I, with no external added mesh body, could not wear it. Thats not for me. I do not want to have to restrict my shopping to mesh clothes that are only compatible with one vendors body. 

While I do own slink feet...and another brand as well...I dont yet have shoes for them. Id really rather not purchase shoes that are limited to one brand. so, for the moment all my shoes have their own feet.

That being said, I want to make shoes, but not feet. so drat...a question for another thread will be, how do I make a shoe that can be added to a slink, matraiya or other foot?

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Shoes are totally different. The mesh feet are set at the heights but each maker is slightly different so no one shoe fits all the feet, hence why you have to make them for each one. 

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I know what you are saying is frustrating,  I had slink feet long  before I had a mesh body, but I didn't get slink body, I got another one that allows me to use my slink feet and hands with it.. thank goodness! because I have a load of slink shoes that I otherwise could not wear.  There is no "standard" size for feet as noted above each foot maker does them slightly differently so we are stuck with shoes that only fit one foot size.  There are not all that many out there that make shoes for other than slink,  a few now but not too many.  I frequently use a non rigged boot and remove the feet and I then can adjust the height of the boot and the position to where I want it.  I run into issues when I have a nice slink boot but it doesn't fit the lower leg part of my mesh body.  This is certainly something that could use a little attention lol.  Some shoe makers I noticed are now making shoes for a few other bodies as well as slink.  But one size will never fit all unfortunately.

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