Discouraged: RLV-RPing and Slink Physique

[Gia1983]

Hello All and hope that I am posting  in the right forum (if not... sorry)

I have been roleplaying for 6 months (Games-Gor-D/S) and I am addicted to OpenCollar RLV.  I bought, 2 weeks ago, Slink products for my SL Avatar (hands-feet-physique) and I am deeply in love with as they are doing a really nice job and more than I expected.  

As you know, prisms clothes can be worn throught an Applier HUD, which works perfectly... BUT:

My problem is that my partner can not play or detach thoses clothes as it was possible before with my RLV because the other person needs a HUD to turn off different layers I put on OR needs an eraser to detach these layers.

Does anyone know how Slink physique works with RLV?

 

Thank you :)

[Aethelwine]

I don't really see how they would be able to. Perhaps a scripter would be able to develop an interface, but I doubt it.

You could I suppose save bodies along with outfits in the rlv folder and could swap your clothed outfit for a naked one, or differently dressed one that way.

But why not just roleplay using words..and if he says as part of roleplay he wants you to take off your rabbit slippers or put them on, or whatever... then just make the change yourself.

[Syo Emerald]

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Aethelwine wrote:

But why not just roleplay using words..and if he says as part of roleplay he wants you to take off your rabbit slippers or put them on, or whatever... then just make the change yourself.

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I was close to just say that...

In other RPGs we perfectly play without having RLV. Also...call me dumb, but isn't the context of Gor or D/S that one person obeys to the wishes of the other person? That would be a pretty bad slave, if I had to pull off her slippers myself, instead of herself doing that herself, when I command it. :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Syo Emerald wrote:

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Aethelwine wrote:

But why not just roleplay using words..and if he says as part of roleplay he wants you to take off your rabbit slippers or put them on, or whatever... then just make the change yourself.

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I was close to just say that...

In other RPGs we perfectly play without having RLV. Also...call me dumb, but isn't the context of Gor or D/S that one person obeys to the wishes of the other person? That would be a pretty bad slave, if I had to pull off her slippers myself, instead of herself doing that herself, when I command it. :matte-motes-big-grin:

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What you're talking about is two different types or levels of control.  Some prefer to command their sub to do as they wish and others prefer to bypass their sub's ability to control what they do entirely, making for a very different dynamic.

Unfortunately, Slink and other mesh body part creators simply didn't consider such scenarios when developing their systems.  Perhaps one day, someone will develop a system to accommodate such activities... until then, I'm afraid those who prefer the latter are out of luck.

...Dres

[Bobbie Faulds]

Basics.....Our defaul avi is mesh...in fact everything you see in SL is mesh. Switch to wireframe and you can see it...Now... SL has automated applying the system clothes for us. However, with the new mesh bodies, that has to be done manually with scripts. Mesh bodies are in their infancy. I never played with the mesh implants or bootys, which have been around longer, but I believe the same restriction applies. The layer the clothing is applied to has to be turned on and off. Once a clothing layer is applied you either turn it off or replace it with another item. In that, it's like skin on your SL default avi. You can't take it off, you have to replace it.

For Slink and TMP, at least, I don't see an ancillary hud where a partner can control it happening unless it's developed by the makers. The others, I don't really know if it's possible. To do it, you would have to know the channel the body part communicates on or insert a script, much like the Omega system works for clothing and skin layers. Perhaps some enterprising script can come up with one but it would still require the wearer of said parts to add the scripts to their bodies themselves or, in the cases of ones like Banned and Belleza, the makers adding then and then the owner activating them or the use of a bridge, like Maitreya bodies require.

[Gia1983]

Thank you for your answer Bobbie...

I'm even more discouraged  but I won't give up.  I think this is an important issue for the Mesh bodies future.  This capacity isn't only for D/S purposes but also for general RP and Gaming.

It took me few weeks to understand how Slink works and how the Slink Physique appliers works too, but I do not understand how things (script-programming) work behind.

I imagined things more simple as I thought the Makers "just" have to made an external Applier HUD which will be assigned to a specific person and will force synchronisation.

Well thanks again, I'll contact Siddean Munro, she gave me great support when I bought the Physique

[Rhys Goode]

The KL Lena avatars, and the Eve avatars all have mod permissions when you rez them. Easy enought to drop in a listener script. Including hooks for RLV, if so desired. Some of us are experimenting.....  But while I can make it work in a few focused cases, it is *soooooo* klunky.

[arualblues]

I believe it is totally possible to develop something like this in the near future. I'm thinking about the Slink Guest Station, where you stand and anyone can click and recolor your Slink hands and feet. Perhaps something similar, restricted to a specific user can be developed for your partner to be able to click and turn your clothing layers on and off.

There are several things that I would like to see further developed regarding mesh bodies, but we have to be patient :-)

[Bobbie Faulds]

I'm sure the guest station is on the same channel as the hands and feet. I can already change clothes on my mesh avi from huds I've made for that body without having to actually "wear" the hud because they are communicating on the same channel. The problem is that with hands and feet, you are dealing with tones. With system clothing on the mesh avis, with a system like Omega, they have listeners in the body already or can be added or, in the case of the first release of Belleza and the current release of Maitreya, the maker has given the channel to the scripter that makes Omega and she nad made relays. For a 3rd person to change the clothes, they would need the hud for that particular outfit to change clothes, or a basic hud to turn off the clothing layers if they are wanting the person nude. That would require clothing makers to make a transfer version of the huds for clothing, the addition of another listener for the mod bodies, or the maker of the body, in the case of no mod bodies, to be willing to either add the script to their body so it could hear the hud or one that is willing to turn over the channel their body is on.

[Genie Mixemup]

I've been playing around with the idea of writing a HUD item that could help with this.

The system that I am think of would require some folder set-up though and the larger problem would be that most RLV commands from self worn attachment (Like an OC Collor) are delivered though llOwnerSay.

The HUD should work fine for RLV commands issued on the RLV Channel and mesh clothes, but I have not worked out anything for the other.

 

p.s. also applied clothes on the mesh AVs built in clothes layers would not be doable without some cooperation from the creators.

 

Buttons (Genie.Mixemup), owner of Genie Wishes

[arualblues]

Perhaps a first step could be to develop something to grant the ability to turn on/off clothing layers. I only own two mesh bodies, so I don't know how all work, but mine have three layers: tattoo, undies and clothing. With a little imagination, one could be wearing three different outfits at the same time, and someone else could change between parts of those three or undress the person.

Of course it wouldn't be the same as being able to access a large wardrobe, but at least for a start that seems more doable, perhaps?

[Innula Zenovka]

The only way I can see to get it to work is to prepare shared folders containing the body in various states of undress, and use RLV to switch between them.

RLV was developed when all we had was clothing layers and attachments.   You can force people to wear or remove system clothing layers (including alphas and tattoos) and attachments, but there's no way RLV can apply (or remove) clothing textures to mesh bodies.   That whole technology came well after RLV.

 

[Genie Mixemup]

That is why I mentioned that applied clothing layers to mesh bodies might require help for the body creators (where they so inclided)  The HUDs for these bodies communicate with the mesh bodies on sub-channels and with certain commands. 

If you knew the right commands and channels you could make a device that listened to the relay channel for incomming strip commands and then relay them to the body layers.

 

i.e. You get hit with an @remoutfit:shirt=force commaned, the device hear it and then sends a clear upper clothing layer 2 to you mesh body.  

unfortunately you'd have to code for each different body, so could only support the Mesh Bodies that felt like cooperating.

Though I suppose if you could just make your own 'blank' applies you could force wear those as a means of stripping.

[Sassy Romano]

I did this and have products for Tango's and Phat Azz but that's where I stopped.

The mesh frankenstein business is just in total disarray and it's a pointless mess.  No sooner than you start supporting one frankenpart, someone DMCA's that and it gets removed from the market.  Even if it doesn't, you waste time creating something, package it up and then soon after, a new frankenpart gets released "bestest eva in SL!" and you go back over existing product to add support.  Repeat this a couple of times and you end up backtracking exponentially and getting nothing done.

The mesh replacement avatars and mesh in general just don't suit RLV.  There's no way to sensibly define how to handle alpha, how many faces to hide, for each worn item of clothing and the whole body part hud comms is just cumbersome and often proprietary.

Then where is that clothing actually worn?  If it's a rigged item, you can attach a pair of boots to left ear and they'll be in the right place on the avatar.  No longer does "chest" or "pelvis" have any sensible meaning.

Throw in multiple alpha layers even on the standard avatar and you've got a whole world of nightmare trying to handle stacked alphas when the only RLV command is remoutfit:alpha=force.

The only viable way is one that Innula mentioned that i've been doing for 7 years and that's via folders and even then it's a mess.

So much of a mess that I no longer find it worth any of my time trying to deal with the pile of crap that LL has bestowed upon us by such a humungously poor and ill thought out solution that they've arrived at for mesh.

I was badly mistaken in another thread by someone who misread and believed that I said "mesh is crap".  I LOVE mesh and what i've been able to do with it but most of the clothing items have ended up being personal toys, where I have total control, can script them precisely how I need and mix them with parts that will work.  To turn these into viable customer facing products that will be well received and used in all manner of ways is beyond what can be reasonably achieved, hence i've ceased bothering.

[Freya Mokusei]

For bodyparts that you don't want removed via RLV commands, you can append the following to the end of the object name (if the object is Modify):-

-nostrip

This way, if you have a shoe (without -nostrip) and a foot (with -nostrip) both attached to Left Foot, remove outfit commands on your Left Foot will only remove the shoe.

Not foolproof, but a bit more controllable. You can control it a little further by trying to use RLV remove commands that address folders, rather than attachment points. It's all about how you use it.

[Nalates Urriah]

We are more than two years down the road from the time the opening post was made. The RLV and mesh body worlds are still an estranged mess.

I think the RLV community has pretty much settled on working-around the issues. That looks something like this: Second Life Tutorial: RLV, Mesh, and Folders – How it works, How to Use, not an ideal solution.

The biggest problem is RLV scripting is old and out of date. Most RLV scripting in SL is pre-Mesh and I have yet to see any RLV script that knows about the changes made by Bento.

Body makers like Slink and Maitreya aren't providing the information needed for scripters to build new RLV devices that work with the newer SL features, Bento and Mesh. Of course, there is the problem of griefing. One can't just allow text on a channel to remove clothes... My understanding that is how all mesh bodies are controlled now. With 4 million channels, seems no one has guessed correctly. Then there is the problem of knowing the command format...

If that information gets out... it would be a mess on the order of Griefer Monday in the first days of Advanced Experience Tools.

At some point some mesh body maker will make their products RLV compatible. Or someone will hack all the Applier code and start making RLV scripts that can talk to various mesh bodies. Heaven help us if they make it so it works only with one brand of body... That will kill sales of other brand and sky rocket the chosen brand. 

No one knows how big a market the RLV community makes up. I meet horny guys all the time that have been in SL for a year or two and have no idea what RLV is. I met one that was 5 years old and couldn't RP or work an RLV trap, sadly clueless. So, I can't even guess at the percent of SL users interested in RLV.

But, something like 3/4's of SL users use an RLV capable viewer, Firestorm.

The most we can probably do to encourage makers to consider RLV is ask them if their product is RLV compatible. Every time w go to buy a mesh body part, ask, whether we know the answer or not. The point is simply to let the maker know er are interested in RLV. If they see enough people asking, they may decide it is worth their time and effort to add RLV compatibility.

However I think it will have to be a group project on the part of body and RLV brands to work something out. No simple thing...

 

[Klytyna]

There are some developements... 

 

Maitreya released an 'autohide' dev kit (it's in the store right next to the body vendor. This allows you to drop a script into a mod item, so that it automatically sets/unsets body alpha cuts when worn/unworn.

 

Simple huh, and for no mod items, you can make a 1 prim HUD thats warn at the same time to do this.

 

Now for the RLV... I have an Armbinder, in mesh, the rlv scripting in that was designed for system avi's, and features an 'autoalpha' ability, where strapping the binder up adds an rlv subfolder with the appropriate alpha layer to hide your arms. For my new maitreya body, I simply replaced the alpha layer in that rlv subfolder with a 1 prim hud with the maitreya autohide setup to alphacut my arms. It's simple and painless.

 

It also helps to attach mesh clothing to the RIGHT parts of the body, so a dress attaches to stomach, a bra to chest, panties to pelvis, shoes/boots attach to feet, hair always attaches to skull (i hate mesh hair makers who attach hair to your right hand ). This should be basic setup.

 

Sort your RLV subfolders into a decent tree, a >Clothes subfolder, a >Restraints folder, with logical sub folders for dresses, seperates, footwear, cuffs, gags, etc.

 

Even a knuckle dragging gorean control freak should be able to figure out that ripping off his slave girls panties involves detaching the 'pelvis' attachment, not the 'chest' or 'skull' or 'feet' ones.

 

As for the 'griefer' issues of channel/format access to mesh bodies, do you get problems with somebody elses appliers changing your clothes? or somebody else's alpha hud hiding your legs? No.

There isn't a problem except secrecy by the body makers, some are starting to open up on that, like the Maitreya autohide...

[Grace7 Ling]

hi all,

this is an old thread, but now that Bakes on Mesh (BOM) has been introduced, is the problem solved?

As one poster mentioned, RLV was developed when all we had was clothing layers and attachments; now BOM skins is going back to system skin layers.

I'm new to BOM myself and trying to figure it out.

Any thoughts? thanks.

[Maitimo]

When I saw the first post here I didn't notice the date and my first thought was "BOM".  It would work with the layers clothing, but I don't think it would with the alpha cuts for mesh clothes, if those are done with the hud. This will change eventually, as BOM is supposed to work with alpha layers, same as classic avatars, but that's not widely used yet (I think the Slink Redux body has that feature, as does the freebie RuthToo, but none others that I know of).

Unless someone from all those years ago actually did manage to script something for it.

[Nalates Urriah]

RLV has always dealt with attachments. Eyes, skin, tats, shape, and etc. are not attachments. RLV scripts could change system eyes, skin, etc. But, RLV has a problem with appliers. AFAIK no RLV toys get around the copy protection built into appliers. So, RLV could not remove applier stuff, change, or add it. BoM avoids use of appliers. So, a problem is eliminated.

RLV toys are adapting to mesh bodies and heads. Those adaptions will work with any mesh bodies and heads, BOM or not. No RLV change is needed for BOM, at least not that I can think of.

The RLV problems we have now are from all the OLD RLV stuff laying around the grid. To attempt to compensate for mesh stuff and old toys RLV has revised how relays work. Most now use RLV folders. These let you make mesh body, head, hair, and other things non-removable. So, when the avatar is stripped body, head, hair, and whatever else you specify stays attached. They have moved away from locking attachment points to locking specific attachments.

Personally, I like the way Peanut OC has revised folders and use that system. The manual is here.

[Maitimo]

What is confusing me about it (I have never used RLV but I have some understanding of it) is appliers. Applier clothing on a mesh body isn't an attachment so persumably RLV cannot remove it, unless the RLV device can somehow override the body's hud.

[Gunner2715]

There is an awful lot of information here, most of which I do not understand.  The only thing that I want to know is really very simple.  Does there exist a set of circumstances whereby I can remove an applier (with the targets permission) from another avatar.  Does a product, script, black market tool or even a magical incantation exist that allows this?

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Gunner2715

[Alyona Su]

13 hours ago, Gunner2715 said:

There is an awful lot of information here, most of which I do not understand.  The only thing that I want to know is really very simple.  Does there exist a set of circumstances whereby I can remove an applier (with the targets permission) from another avatar.  Does a product, script, black market tool or even a magical incantation exist that allows this?

 

Simple answer: No for appliers. However, if your target is using BOM (Bakes on Mesh) then they are likely not using appliers, but rather system layers. if they are using system layers then your answer is YES.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Alyona Su

[Gunner2715]

Thank you Alyona Su.  Response appreciated even if it is disappointing.