Talking Redzone

[Vick Forcella]

The Jira https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746 is overflowing and has become totaly unreadable. No so strange since Jira isn't a tool made for discussion. I suggest we continue here.

[Sling Trebuchet]

RIght now, that JIRA hasn't broken the record for Votes.

It must have broken all records for number of comments.

LL!! WHo needs Lithium or Blogorums when we have that JIRA item? It carried the most vital bits of SL "listening" while the Blogorums were frozen. Its a hero of SL. A thing of legend.

Maybe we should get more Votes on it and go for a double-whammy?

 

Over on SLU , "the" thread is at around 300 pages!!

I'm trying to get it to 666 pages - when the end of the daze will happen and the Four Alts of the Apocalypse will ride out to rezz grey goo everywhere.

 

If LL are not actually listening, we might as well have some fun.

 

[Qie Niangao]

Um, yeah.  I'm kinda surprised the Jira is holding up as well as it has for that one.

(I have to admit, it's not obvious to which category this discussion would be suited, ideally.  But if it's between bogging down the Jira and exercising forums discussion software, the choice seems obvious.)

Incidentally, I recently linked another really old jira ("Automatically play media setting ignored plays anyway - PARCEL_MEDIA_COMMAND_PLAY")  to the Redzone one.  Seems to me, had that been fixed, the explosion about Redzone could have been delayed another six months or so because it wouldn't have been able to scan so many addresses.

[Anthonio Belavidorico]

What I understood from Soft's his latest JIRA post (about the Alt avatar lists). Is that they are going to look at it per case (so the avatars who did the scan and revealed Alt's who are not really alt's and ain't given consent to be revealed) *sighs*


What I don't understand is why that device is still on the grids o.0

[Ember Topaz]

Let's get the ball really rolling with this post of neal's

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746?focusedCommentId=245924&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-245924

https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/ViewProfile.jspa?name=neal.hernandoz'>

neal Hernandoz added a comment - 02/Mar/11 12:00 PMFor those who want to read section 4.3 of the linden lab terms of service here:"The Service may contain links to or otherwise allow connections to third-party websites, servers, and online services or environments that are not owned or controlled by Linden Lab. You agree that Linden Lab is not responsible or liable for the Content, policies, or practices of any third-party websites, servers, or online services or environments. Please consult any applicable terms of use and privacy policies provided by the third party for such websites, servers, or online services or environments."So, what does that say? It says linden lab is not responsible for this redzone system meaning asking linden lab to take action on this is unlawful and also suing linden lab over this is also unlawful. So, this whole post has not only gotten out of hand but it has also allowed each and one of you to break tos on here. I'm done listening to this.

I do not think you know the meaning of this word unlawful

But following his advice I went and read zFire's ToS.

 

We do not consider any publicly displayed secondlife information such as usernames, account age, photos displayed to the world, payment status, join date, UUID, IP, platform, viewer, group affiliations, preferred language used, time of day, timezone, region, partner name or any other secondlife information to be private. 

 When did IP, platform, & viewer become "publicly displayed secondlife information."

Yes I choose to have my viewer name displayed but not all viewers do.

I also find the "any other secondlife information"  to be fairly ominous

[Aremon Greymoon]

At the  moment I am finding myself rather amused by Xena Shamen's comments - particularly her ability to utterly ignore pertinent points of other posts he/she is responding too.

 

Hmm..maybe it would be smart of me to determine if they are male or female before referring to them....

 

Anyway, as for the intrepid neal - I sort of tuned him out as prattle after the first couple posts

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

I wonder if Community Feedback would be a better match.

Anyway, they changed the TOS during the Dark Time, and it looks rather as if Redzone is in clear breach of the new terms.

[Sling Trebuchet]

The only "publicly displayed secondlife information." that I want to see is LL demonstrating just an ounce of ethical behaviour.

Their silence on this is an absolute disgrace and shame for them.

This topic has been boiling for a month. Nothing from SL apart from signs that all they are interested in is avoiding even the merest hint of liability , not matter waht the cost to people or the soul of Second Life.

That JIRA mighr be the page download from hell, but it's got a few nuggets. A recent one was particulary good:

=========================================================================================

 

Jazleen Raynier added a comment - 02/Mar/11 12:15 AM

What I think is really, really sad here is that LL through their lack of communication, decisions, actions is letting the residents of this wonderful world slowly tear its foundations apart. SL is or was a place where people could come and be who or what they want to be. They could let their imaginations go, be free to run around as a kitty if they want, make things they could only dream about in rl, but now its become a place of suspicion, accusations, distrust, harassment, vengeance, school yard bullying. Its gone from being a place people could relax in from the stresses of rl, where for most people day to day living is stressful enough. And all because somebody, whether it be zFire, or anyone else who makes these kinds of objects, found a hole they could take advantage of.

If LL don't do their job and protect its residents it will find, eventually, that it has very few residents left to protect. How many people now go to log onto SL and then stop just before the log in page, suddenly finding themselves feeling stressed before they've even got there, so don't log in and as someone stated earlier there are other virtual worlds out there where this kind of thing is not a problem. I'm pretty sure if all LL has to do is fix a hole that is being abused then they must have the technological know how to be able to do it. In some ways you can't blame zFire for taking advantage. How he went about it is appalling and frankly shows a distinct lack of respect not only for the residents of SL, for LL but also for himself that his skills as a builder have been used to cause people nothing but harm, but he probably didn't look any further than his bank balance when he made it initially, and more than likely never expected people to be so vocal in their disgust at it. As soon as LL realised he'd breached a hole in their world they should have been on it, patched it, without its residents having to resort to this.

LL you are tearing the very world you created apart by your inaction. So when you're profits start to fall, the numbers start decreasing, the world becomes quieter, there really is no-one else to blame but yourselves.

Nobody denies that anyone who copies another's work without permission, causes grief to people's land for their amusement, should be found and booted from SL, without question..but not at the expense of the thousands and thousands of innocent people who have been and are still being bullied, exposed, humiliated, destroyed.

So please, LL you are the owner of a thriving business, if you want it to continue to thrive, do the job that we are paying you to do and fix this damn hole before every SL resident gets sucked into it, and never returns.

=============================================================================

 

 

 

[Lloyd Newman]

Just posted on the JIRA noted above:

 

Soft Linden commented on VWR-24746:

-----------------------------------


Hey, all. I got the go-ahead to give an update on zF Red Zone specifically. Again, thank you for the ARs with specific info about violations. These have been very helpful for letting Lindens know what's going on.

Tuesday morning, we removed zF Red Zone from the Marketplace for a second time. We removed the in-world vendor distributing the item as well. We determined that zF Red Zone was still in violation of our Terms of Service and Community Standards.


We asked for removal by no later than today of all zF Red Zone functionality that discloses any alternate account names. That is, even if consent is asked, the service may not act on the consent. In addition, we asked for removal by no later than Friday of the interface for and any remaining implementation of the zF Red Zone consent mechanism because it does not comply with our policies. If these updates are not made, we will take appropriate steps to remedy the violations.


As before, we appreciate your help in keeping an eye on content. If you find that any merchant's product is not in compliance with our TOS or our Community Standards, please file an abuse report about the product. Do this even if you filed against a previous version. Include a specific explanation of what you believe is a violation, and ideally select and report the in-world object at issue in case it behaves differently than what's in the Marketplace. Before reporting, make sure you have first-hand knowledge of the issue. Support can best react if you explain specific steps to reproduce or confirm a violation.

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

 

---

Sling Trebuchet wrote:

RIght now, that JIRA hasn't broken the record for Votes.

The Lindens, a while back, said they had stopped counting votes.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

Jeepers, Vick.  You start this thread, a handful of posts later: problem solved.

This is some forum here, eh wot?

[Argus Collingwood]

 

---

Lloyd Newman wrote:

Just posted on the JIRA noted above:

 

Soft Linden commented on VWR-24746:

-----------------------------------


Hey, all. I got the go-ahead to give an update on zF Red Zone specifically. Again, thank you for the ARs with specific info about violations. These have been very helpful for letting Lindens know what's going on.

Tuesday morning, we removed zF Red Zone from the Marketplace for a second time. We removed the in-world vendor distributing the item as well. We determined that zF Red Zone was still in violation of our Terms of Service and Community Standards.


We asked for removal by no later than today of all zF Red Zone functionality that discloses any alternate account names. That is, even if consent is asked, the service may not act on the consent. In addition, we asked for removal by no later than Friday of the interface for and any remaining implementation of the zF Red Zone consent mechanism because it does not comply with our policies. If these updates are not made, we will take appropriate steps to remedy the violations.


As before, we appreciate your help in keeping an eye on content. If you find that any merchant's product is not in compliance with our TOS or our Community Standards, please file an abuse report about the product. Do this even if you filed against a previous version. Include a specific explanation of what you believe is a violation, and ideally select and report the in-world object at issue in case it behaves differently than what's in the Marketplace. Before reporting, make sure you have first-hand knowledge of the issue. Support can best react if you explain specific steps to reproduce or confirm a violation.

---

That is a very telling post. :smileysurprised:

 

[SugarPutty Magic]

The Fight is not over yet!!!!!!
There is still the issue of harvesting data without consent....
We can not back off now this is just a step in the right dirrection.
As long as the harvesting of data with out consent is still allowed the door is open for systems like this to go underground!!!!!:smileymad:

[Luc Starsider]

It's great that the Lindens have removed RZ. There are, however, other products out there that work in a similar way. I hope these also will be removed. There are also the issue of the media bug (and other aspects) that has to be fixed.

So we're not quite there yet.

- Luc -

[Tristizia Demonista]

Well, it is a start Nothing more though. At least LL , for the 1st time EVER,  acknowledged that this "device" is violating the TOS.

 

hmm, now that rZ can't reveal alt's no more, i guess there are quite a few ppl out there who are VERY depressed

[Paladin Pinion]

Interesting reply from Soft. I'm a little confused about where that leaves RZ now. If the requested changes are made, it sounds like RZ can continue to operate as long as it does not disclose alt info. If so, then it will still ban presumed alts, the only difference being that the user can't identify who those alts are. Since RZ mismatches people all the time, it sounds like it will continue to ban the wrong people as long as it does that silently.

Do I have it right?

[Siobhan Taylor]

Since many of us have dynamic IP, and visit wifi hotspots to log in... and since people move around a lot, then it's only a matter of time before RZ decides that everyone is an alt of everyone else...

So what happens when suddenly everyone is barred from everywhere? And zFire is banned from his own forum?

It is after all, the logical endgame.

[Sling Trebuchet]

RZ has not been removed

"Soft Linden: We asked for removal by no later than today of all zF Red Zone functionality that discloses any alternate account names. That is, even if consent is asked, the service may not act on the consent. In addition, we asked for removal by no later than Friday of the interface for and any remaining implementation of the zF Red Zone consent mechanism because it does not comply with our policies. If these updates are not made, we will take appropriate steps to remedy the violations."

Note that this does not mean that the data harvesting is nuked.
The in-world scanners will continue to log name/IP pairs to the off-world database.

@LL.. What will happen when the alt lists are delivered from database to web-browsers outside of SL?
Will LL at that stage nuke the scanners?

 

What about, for instance,

- Remote Disclosure of avatar location?

- Remote Disclosure of names in the company of an avatar

- Remote Disclosure of names of avatars at a location

- DIsclosure of avatar movement history

All of the above is available by query from the RZ database, which is still being fed data by the in-world scanners.

 

Other networks may exist.

Other newtorks may be created.

It is clear for the RZ sales that there is strong demand for systems that disclose information about others.

Will we have to go through a month plus of drama for each sich system as it becomes detected?

 

 

 

 

[Sling Trebuchet]

"The Lindens, a while back, said they had stopped counting votes."

So?   We didn't stop counting them in 'that' JIRA. We kept Voting despite what the Lindens said.

 

The new JIRA -without-votes might as well call the count mechanism "Floop" rather than "Watch". The term used is meaningless. It will simply be a count of people who became aware of some issue and took the trouble to press the 'Floop' link to signal their interest.

 

[Clarissa Lowell]

Wait - I haven't been paying much attention, I haven't even been on SL much lately. This RZ issue has gotten me fairly bummed out. Did I just understand right, that RZ is off the grid?!  Or just changed?

I was trying to see which places have RZ or not so I could decide for myself where to shop. I was also sending that list to a few people but only after I IM'd the owner the RZ listed when it went off. Because of trying to make sure someone wasn't listed due to a false positive, it blew up in my face. 

I got IMs from three people from that mall, each one nastier than the previous person, with it ending with the owner calling me a griefer and saying nasty allegations about my supposed alts. Is that what Red Zone is for - so people can throw that in someone's face if they don't like them or something? I wasn't even online when they were sending all of those IMs, so I never asked who my supposed alts are. She also said I'm a griefer. Which I am definitely not a griefer. I was not even in her mall more than two seconds (because they have RZ) and I ain't never griefed anybody.

That isn't the type of SL I want to be in.

[Clarissa Lowell]

By the way I'm told that the Vanity Universe skin fair is using a hidden RZ.

[deety Galicia]

Clarissa, that is pretty much what redzone is for

[Clarissa Lowell]

You know what's ironic? In one of the rants the mall owner IMed to me, she was saying how she uses Red Zone innocently (I never even IMed her or another of the three who IMed, at all, before they IMed me btw) and that (she named a person I forgot his name) so and so uses it just to look up people he dislikes and get them banned anywhere he can. And yet in her next IM she was telling me that I'm a "little griefer" and she has read my (supposed) alts (she never named them, I didn't want to know or ask anyway.) Just to make me feel bad I'm sure. So I don't think she uses it so innocently after all.

They all seem to think they use it innocently but even if they don't use it in an argument they are still adding the names so other people can.

My question would be: Isn't the device itself breaking disclosure TOS since IT is disclosing information I don't want strangers to know? It's telling it to another avatar I never met before...So does it have to be an avatar telling another avatar, to break disclosure TOS or can it be a thing telling another avatar. Because that thing told something about me to some crazy lady and who knows who she told by now.

I'm not afraid of her but it made me feel really bad. I just do not feel the same about SL until this is all gone.

[Clarissa Lowell]

Awesome tip, Suella! I was just thinking about making a better badeg background and your tutorial really comes handy. I will add a link to MetaLibrary ... :smileyhappy:

[livia Trill]

Clarissa, you should be able to edit your post by clicking on the options button on your post.

 

I am pleased that LL have listened to their customers to some degree on this issue, but the devices are still harvesting real life information without our consent, and I really hope that sometime very soon, LL take a strong stand against this kind of TOS violation, and ensure that their customers can use SL without being disappointed in respect of their reasonable expectations of privacy.