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Jean Horten

So all criticism of Viewer 2 is gone with the new system?

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Hitomi Tiponi wrote:

 

Govindira Galatea wrote:

You have to wait and wait and wait for the results of such search-based inventory accesses.  Secondly, it presents you with far more information than required.  

Example: I'm putting an outfit together with a dress from Rotten Toes and boots from Redgrave.  I remember the clothing makers/stores but not the item names.  In a large inventory, mostly you remember the from-whom/where you bought it, what it is, but NOT its name.

 

I find that it returns the results instantaneously - most of the time the inventory is quickly available.

Maybe I am different in that I shop around and end up with items from many shops (though having my favourites of course) and tend to order them by what they are rather than who I bought them from.  But I can see that if you do order stuff like that then Viewer 2 would be a little bit slower for you.

 

Simply clear your cache and then log-in to discover the reality of using search to change outfits.  I just did as I described above--without clearing cache!--with a V2.x based TPV--Kirstens--and got the precise effect I described, it's slow and intricate and non-intuitive.  Even Windows allows you to get places in file list by touching the keyboard and going to the section of the list which has that letter initially in its name(s).  I entered "rott" and got the Rotten Toe folder, but did not see the outfit for which I was searching.  Highlighted the Rotten Toe folder, cleared the search, then scrolled to the Rotten Toe folder to find the Rotten Toe dress I was looking for: Carnival Girl.  I had no way around this: I did not remember what the dress was called but I did remember who made it, the store's name.  

 

I classify by designer/store name generally.  That allows me to group otherwise disparate items together and leave them that way and know I can retrieve them without fruitless searches.  For Carnival girl I would have attempted Pierrette or Diamond; I don't think of the dress as Carnival, though after much repetition in writing here, I now do.  But what of other outfits whose names I also misremember, but I know who made the dress, or from what part of the alphabet her name is.  

 

And it's elementary to do this.  Windows allows it, for goodness' sake.  If Bill Gates can do that much, LL should be able to do it, particularly since they did it for V1.x viewers.

 

V2.x is full of inexplicable oversights, reconfigurations, and consequent confusions.  I don't like its UI.  Except for the fact that it does render things faster with shadows turned on (Kirstens optimized version of V2.x), I would have no reason to recommend a V2.x based viewer to anyone.

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Curious Hazelnut wrote:

2) The editor built into viewer 2 still doesn't line up the cursor with the text you are editing properly on large files. This is very common for scripts and when writing instructions for new products. It is a huge problem when trying to edit what has already been written.


This sounds like a nasty bug in our editor - do you know of a JIRA issue for it?

In the meantime, there are some useful workarounds. As Hitomi said, you can now use external text editors to edit LSL scripts. If you have the "Advanced" menu enabled, hit "Show Debug Settings" then set the externalEditor setting to a command line for invoking your editor application of choice - for example, here's a command line for a non-existent Windows editor: C:\Program Files\JoannaLumleyEdit\joanna.exe "%s"  (Note the "%s" at the end, in which the temporary script file is passed to the editor.)

Now, when you open a script to edit, the viewer's editor window will have a new Edit button at the bottom. Clicking this button will download the script to a local temporary file and open your chosen external editor app. Every time this file is saved by your editor, the Viewer will notice and put the results back in the viewer's editor.

I hope this solution makes things easier!

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Yoz Linden wrote:

This sounds like a nasty bug in our editor - do you know of a JIRA issue for it?

There is a script Meta-Issue in VWR-19479 but I can't see it particularly covered there.  Will check further later and if not I will create one.

 

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Govindira Galatea wrote:

Even Windows has this: in inventory under version one, if the folder or item I wished to access has an initial letter known to me, just hitting that letter key gets me to the next instance of that letter as an initial letter.  A simple shortcut that makes a large inventory manageable, makes organizing inventory worthwhile, and a simple shortcut that has been eliminated in the 'advances' of the V2 UI.  V2 has some undoubted advantages functionally, but the UI does not adhere to these simple standards of functionality.

And some are saying, "Move on, get over it," because they really don't know what they are missing.  Pie menus are a matter of taste.  Changing something from 1 or 2 clicks to 4 clicks is not a matter of taste; it's bad design.

 

This is one of the biggest things bothering me at 2.0 ever since it was released. I've actually used it this whole time, and I'm completely used to the 2.0 UI now. I actually liked it form the start, just cause it was fresh and new.

 

I made a JIRA about this, Govindira, but idk how the JIRA is going to work here soon, since you can't vote on them on past the 8th.

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19967?

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Yoz Linden wrote:


Curious Hazelnut wrote:

2) The editor built into viewer 2 still doesn't line up the cursor with the text you are editing properly on large files. This is very common for scripts and when writing instructions for new products. It is a huge problem when trying to edit what has already been written.


This sounds like a nasty bug in our editor - do you know of a JIRA issue for it?

 

I haven't looked, since I figured LL must know about it, it's so pervasive. It's been there ever since V2 was first released. The longer the script, the more incorrect the cursor offset becomes. I'm just guessing, but if the editor supports unicode, it looks to me like the byte count is wrong. Sometimes it is impossible to place the cursor where you want, it goes to another place in the line, usually offset by one or more characters to the right.

An external editor isn't a great solution for me, since I do use the tooltips and popup definitions to remind me of syntax. When the cursor gets off, I look to see how many characters away it is and then use the arrow keys to move back to where it belongs. The cursor doesn't always display there, but when I type, the characters go into the right place.

The effect sometimes happens when editing notecards too, but I edit scripts more often so that's where I notice it.

I'm on a Mac, if that matters.

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Yoz Linden wrote:

Also, speaking on behalf of the Viewer 2 team - which I'm not really a member of - making criticisms in a constructive manner will improve their chances of being addressed. Alternatively, go for comedy value. ("My Viewer 2 walks into a bar...")

 

No, whatever we say get ignored, even the jira reports^^

So, please dont tell me, that LL is listening to thier customers...

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Yoz Linden wrote:


Curious Hazelnut wrote:

2) The editor built into viewer 2 still doesn't line up the cursor with the text you are editing properly on large files. This is very common for scripts and when writing instructions for new products. It is a huge problem when trying to edit what has already been written.


This sounds like a nasty bug in our editor - do you know of a JIRA issue for it?

In the meantime, there are some useful workarounds. As Hitomi said, you can now use external text editors to edit LSL scripts. If you have the "Advanced" menu enabled, hit "Show Debug Settings" then set the
externalEditor
setting to a command line for invoking your editor application of choice - for example, here's a command line for a non-existent Windows editor:
C:\Program Files\JoannaLumleyEdit\joanna.exe "%s"
  (Note the "%s" at the end, in which the temporary script file is passed to the editor.)

Now, when you open a script to edit, the viewer's editor window will have a new
Edit
button at the bottom. Clicking this button will download the script to a local temporary file and open your chosen external editor app. Every time this file is saved by your editor, the Viewer will notice and put the results back in the viewer's editor.

I hope this solution makes things easier!

 

Actually this is not implemented properly on Mac OS X. It does not behave as per the UIG.

If i.e. the external editor is set to /Applications/UltraEdit.app/Contents/MacOS/UltraEdit %s it invokes an instance of UltraEdit and opens the file, as expected. 

However, if UltraEdit is already running, as per Apple's UIG, the file shall be opened in a new window in the running application. This is not happening, but it invokes another instance of UltraEdit.  This is typical Windows behavior and is never seen on Mac OS X. it is one of the major differences of Mac OS X and Windows in expected application behavior. 

Also, when the file is opened, expected behavior is to switch to the application opening the file and make the window containing it the frontmost. This does not happen, but is hidden behind the SL viewer, so you have to manually invoke a switch. 

For BBedit, another common editor on the Mac, editing a file just starts the application if not running, but never opens the file. 

You really need to test this better. 

EDIT: Actually, the only thing you need to do on Mac OS X is to pass the temp file with the extension .lsl to the operating system (Finder) and it will be opened for edit in the default application set to handle files of that type. If no application has been set, the OS will suggest a list of candidates that can handle the file. Doing it this way will prevent invocation of additional instances of an application. Changing the default application for a file type is easy to set in the Finder. 

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Melissa Yeuxdoux wrote:

How representative is that sample? People tend to be a lot more motivated to kvetch than to compliment, so looking at comments in blogs and forums is liable to not be representative. Ditto for surveys with self-selected respondents. (Hey, there's a poll on that !#%!@ 2.0 SL client! I'll take it, and I'll tell ALL my friends to take it, too!)

 

In storytelling and writing, we have what we call the "Rule of Ten". 

If anyone anywhere doesn't like what you did, boy howdy, will they let you know.  You'll get barraged with nastygrams and vicious emails.  People who are angry act on that anger.  But a reader who is pleased with what you do and enjoyed it?  Only 1 out of 10 will bother to tell you so.  Thus we have the rule -- treat every compliment like it was 10 people complimenting you instead of one.  Because happy people are quiet whereas angry people are noisy. 

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I will only ever use an 'official' LL viewer. I just don't trust anyone else with my login info, passwords, inventory, etc. etc.

So I have been using Viewer 2.x exclusively since it was introduced, and while there are many things I do like about it, there are several things that I really, really don't like about it, to the point where I rarely go in world anymore, and when I do go in world, constantly get in the way of my SL experience.

One thing that is always getting in the way is the undockable local chat window. Whenever I update the viewer, I go into the preferences and change the default settings so that all my chat windows dock into one chat window, and I turn off the 'waste whitespace' feature so that peoples names appear beside their text and not on seperate lines.

The 'local chat' window however is considered 'special' for some reason that escapes me, and most other users. I can speak on behalf of most other users because I have seen the voting numbers from the Phoenix viewer and this was one of the most rabidly hated things about Viewer 2. I concur with that view.

I hate it because it uneccessarily wastes a lot of 3D viewing area for 2D UI stuff. I have a great fear that we are stuck with it forever because there is a special 'docking' button for it down by the 'local chat' text area, but I don't even think there should be a special 'local chat' area. Local chat is just a scrolling text area where messages are printed and where you can enter messages to be sent into the same window. It ain't no different from a group chat window or other instant message window, and if some programmer or UI designer thinks it is, they need to step back from things and get some perspective.

This is probably THE biggest reason my usage of SL has gone from probably five hours a day in world, to about one hour a week. Second Life to me when using Viewer 2 is pretty much a glorified chat program. So much space is devoted to 2D UI when the sidebar is open that I can only see maybe 30 % of the view 'out the window'. The same concerns over screen real estate existed with 1.2x, but I could move windows to wherever I wanted, iconify them, and the local chat window docked with all of the other chat windows. I could see probably 80% 'out the window'.

Rodvik mentioned this in one of his interviews. He recognizes that anything that distracts from the 3D world lessens the experience.

Well the entire Viewer 2 UI paradigm detracts from my 3D experience to the point where I get my 3D jollies elsewhere.

 

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Well said, Codewarrior.  The V2.x UI gets in the way of everything 3D in a very intrusive way, a way that the V1.x viewers avoided.  Any new UI's creators would do well to listen to us better.  

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I would be willing to be a reasonable sum that whoever does the voice chat programming at LL has never gone to a reasonably large event to test things.

Having worked with a few live performance groups in SL, one of the most difficult aspects of just attending one is juggling voice chat levels. There has got to be a better way to manage voice levels than to try clicking at the right moment on the list of names as they shift around. It's like a skill testing game the way it is now, and it seems to be worse in Viewer 2 than it used to be. Maybe the UI can detect that my mouse is in the voice control panel and stop shifting the names around?

Better yet, how about something like a parcel public address system where anyone in the parcel group has their voice chat delivered at a consistent level, unaffected by distance? The spatialization of voice chat is a neat technical trick, but there are many occasions where it hinders more than helps.  I know many live theater people in Second Life who would cut off a limb to be able to put the actors in a special group so that they could be heard uniformly as they move around the stage.

 

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I have been using Viewer 2 for quite some time on my Mac, and there are many things I do like, such as the shortcut teleport bar up top. 

What I cannot get used to, and may go back to an earlier version to avoid, is the web-based profiles. I can no longer find easily a resident's stores, groups, picks, etc. Most of the profiles seem broken to me. I admit to being a compulsive profile reader, so please, I beg you, return the profiles to the old format. 

I noticed recently that the delete function has returned to one-click, rather than buried under the Remove heading. This I applaud. Thanks.

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CodeWarrior Carling wrote:

I will only ever use an 'official' LL viewer. I just don't trust anyone else with my login info, passwords, inventory, etc. etc.

So I have been using Viewer 2.x exclusively since it was introduced, and while there are many things I do like about it, there are several things that I really, really don't like about it, to the point where I rarely go in world anymore, and when I do go in world, constantly get in the way of my SL experience.

One thing that is always getting in the way is the undockable local chat window. Whenever I update the viewer, I go into the preferences and change the default settings so that all my chat windows dock into one chat window, and I turn off the 'waste whitespace' feature so that peoples names appear beside their text and not on seperate lines.

The 'local chat' window however is considered 'special' for some reason that escapes me, and most other users. I can speak on behalf of most other users because I have seen the voting numbers from the Phoenix viewer and this was one of the most rabidly hated things about Viewer 2. I concur with that view.

I hate it because it uneccessarily wastes a lot of 3D viewing area for 2D UI stuff. I have a great fear that we are stuck with it forever because there is a special 'docking' button for it down by the 'local chat' text area, but I don't even think there should be a special 'local chat' area. Local chat is just a scrolling text area where messages are printed and where you can enter messages to be sent into the same window. It ain't no different from a group chat window or other instant message window, and if some programmer or UI designer thinks it is, they need to step back from things and get some perspective.

This is probably THE biggest reason my usage of SL has gone from probably five hours a day in world, to about one hour a week. Second Life to me when using Viewer 2 is pretty much a glorified chat program. So much space is devoted to 2D UI when the sidebar is open that I can only see maybe 30 % of the view 'out the window'. The same concerns over screen real estate existed with 1.2x, but I could move windows to wherever I wanted, iconify them, and the local chat window docked with all of the other chat windows. I could see probably 80% 'out the window'.

Rodvik mentioned this in one of his interviews. He recognizes that anything that distracts from the 3D world lessens the experience.

Well the entire Viewer 2 UI paradigm detracts from my 3D experience to the point where I get my 3D jollies elsewhere.

 

 

Too bad that you're only using LL viewers, this is a screenshot of the GUI of the Firestorm Viewer , the v2 based project by Phoenix:

Snapshot_001.jpg

The Firestorm  devs did a great job so far, their GUI is soo much better and more useable than LLV2 and the devs are not planning to include the web-profiles in their viewer.

 

J.

 

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The Firestorm  devs did a great job so far, their GUI is soo much better and more useable than LLV2 and the devs are not planning to include the web-profiles in their viewer.

 

J.

 

Thats not what they said at their office hour. They said that its based on Viewer 2.4 right now, which is why they don't have web-based profiles, but soon they'll have no other choice. They did say they are having dialogue with LL about changes to web profiles, but they also said they'll be in Firestorm at some point.

 

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Yoki Enoch wrote:

Most people hate Viewer 2 still. Give them time to fill up this forum with another wave of creative dissing of the worst thing LL has ever introduced - Viewer 2.

I do bet that LL has not the guts to put up another poll about Viewer 2 though... LOL!

Same thread bare debate...Can you show any official documentation that most people hate Viewer 2?

 

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

 

Yoki Enoch wrote:

Most people hate Viewer 2 still. Give them time to fill up this forum with another wave of creative dissing of the worst thing LL has ever introduced - Viewer 2.

I do bet that LL has not the guts to put up another poll about Viewer 2 though... LOL!

Same thread bare debate...Can you show any official documentation that most people hate Viewer 2?

 

What official documentation that existed, was removed. The challenge to conduct another official poll, will not be met by LL, since it knows what the results will be.

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I don't hate viewer 2 now, I just don't use it. It would be nice if v2 viewer could give us the option to use either web-based or SL style profile, could do both v1 and v2 style search like Phoenix viewer, and had a working script/notecard editor like pretty much every TPV.

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Lol, what is this sh.t ... really... Who needed these web profiles? Thanks for asking us again what we think about it, LL. You always care for our opinion and we all really appreciate it. Thank for not being also able to load profiles or edit mine thru the built-in browser... and for that I can't find people with your search engine unless I'm using Phoenix/Emerald/etc.

You are winning again. Go on and make our experience even worse here. 

Pic related. It's me right now...

1286992887412.jpg

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haters of viewer 2 will always hate viewer 2, to unreasonable levels if neccesary, and they love to spread misinformation, like they are being forced to do something when they have a choice. its a very popular culture spread specially between phoenix users, it kind of makes them feel good with themselves, elevates their selfesteem as part of the phoenix team. i wonder if this culture against linden lab is encouraged by the phoenix developers.

it seems like there is a band of phoenix users dedicated to diminish and encourage hate against viewer 2 so that their viewer would be more popular. you can spot them in that in most of their "criticism" (negative propaganda) against viewer 2, they will add a phoenix ad in their comments. we dont see dolphin or kirsten's users come and "criticize" viewer 2 and then add an ad of their viewer.

way to go with the negative propaganda, its the only way phoenix would become more used.

phoenix vs. linden lab. guess who is going to stand at the end? some said emerald...

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Atilla Thei wrote:

[...] and for that I can't find people with your search engine unless I'm using Phoenix/Emerald/etc.

Please upload a video to youtube of you trying and failing to search for some one using viewer 2. Other wise I'll just assume you're lying.

 

 

I could understand, and believe, if you had said you have trouble searching for stores on v2. But it's kind of hard to not think you are spreading FUD when you say that typing 'leliel Mirihi' into search on v2 doesn't come up with my profile.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

haters of viewer 2 will always hate viewer 2, to unreasonable levels if neccesary, and they love to spread misinformation, like they are being forced to do something when they have a choice. its a very popular culture spread specially between phoenix users, it kind of makes them feel good with themselves, elevates their selfesteem as part of the phoenix team. i wonder if this culture against linden lab is encouraged by the phoenix developers.

it seems like there is a band of phoenix users dedicated to diminish and encourage hate against viewer 2 so that their viewer would be more popular. you can spot them in that in most of their "criticism" (negative propaganda) against viewer 2, they will add a phoenix ad in their comments. we dont see dolphin or kirsten's users come and "criticize" viewer 2 and then add an ad of their viewer.

way to go with the negative propaganda, its the only way phoenix would become more used.

phoenix vs. linden lab. guess who is going to stand at the end? some said emerald...

I have reported your post. Phoenix users are not the ones spreading hate. Quoted to prove my point.

 

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Canoro, fanatism is what you are doing here, people have the choice, and if people chose not to use LL V2 , they most problably have good reasons to do. One of these reasons is the horrible useability of LL V2 with it's cluttered GUI,communication elements spread all over teh screen, bottom right notifications, bottom left chat bar, separated from local chat history, local chat history separated from the IM window(s) , the non working search ( the present GoogleSearch Appliance is not suitable for in world search, especially not the outdated GSA 5 LL chose, thanks LL for this non working stuff and for removing teh fast, effective and working V1 search), the sidebar that pops out and limits functionality, the communication elements spread all over the screen, the web profiles, which are slow and limit the profile content as well as the functionality that was connected to the in world profiles and finally the huge super slow web applications inside the viewer, the lack of security controls for the web applications in the viewer.

If LLV2 was useable, there would be no need for TPVs, it's Linden Lab's Viewer2.x that makes TPVs (not only Phoenix, there are other's too) necessary and so popular.

I keep on asking my friends in world which viewer they use and why, and 95% of them say: Oh, I am using TPV x or TPVy, cause I just cannot stand LL V2, it's completely unuseable to me, and I get their point, as I see it exactly the same way, and believe me, I have been trying every single version of LL V2 from 2.0 beta 1 on, and it's overall useability has not really improved since February 2010, it just got pimped up with new functions nobody really needs.

Making bad experiences with a software and telling people about these experiences is no negative propaganda, but the trolling that you do here is negative propaganda, for you, not for phoenix, cause you don't provide any reasons why V2 is better in you ropinion, you just bash phoenix users without a reason, and I can understand why your positng has been reported...

My choice for months by the way has not been the Phoenix Viewer, but the V2 offspring of Phoenix, called Firestorm, combining the wonderful functions that are under the V2 hood with a really useable GUI, this is Viewer 2 as it should be, except for the dysfunctional GSA 5 in it.

Jeannie

 

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CodeWarrior Carling wrote:

... ... ... I hate it because it uneccessarily wastes a lot of 3D viewing area for 2D UI stuff ... ... ...

Tottaly agree.

 

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Jean Horten wrote:

( the present GoogleSearch Appliance is not suitable for in world search, especially not the outdated GSA 5 LL chose, thanks LL for this non working stuff and for removing the fast, effective and working V1 search)

Viewer 1 uses GSA 5, Viewer 2 uses GSA 6. The fact that one [sort of] works while the other doesn't has more to do with all the key word spamming users do. In fact I'll come right out and say that at least 50% of the problems in sl are caused by the users, not LL. User greed and [amateur] ignorance are the cause of many, many problems.


If LLV2
made everyone happy
, there would be no need for TPVs, it's Linden Lab's Viewer2.x that makes TPVs (not only Phoenix, there are other's too) necessary and so popular.

FTFY

My choice for months by the way has not been the Phoenix Viewer, but the V2 offspring of Phoenix, called Firestorm, combining the wonderful functions that are under the V2 hood with a really useable GUI, this is Viewer 2 as it should be, except for the dysfunctional GSA 5 in it.

Jeannie

I don't have any problem with you using Phoenix, but you should know that GSA 5 as used by v1 is run on the sims. As such it adds to sim lag, which is why LL is dropping support for it in a few months.

 

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Criticism of V2 will continue forever.

The worst news is the impending demise of Viewer 1 (hereinafter referred to as Standard Working Version) means that either they had better get Viewer 3 into Beta quickly or expect a flood of 3rd party viewers that are repackaged V1.25.3.

V2 is for newbies anyway. The old premium land owners//content creators are ignored or "archived" into some back corner of a forum. Criticisms are archived in the same fashion - never to be dealt with again.

Signed, a repeatedly disappointed resident

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