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Jean Horten

So all criticism of Viewer 2 is gone with the new system?

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We decided to reconfigure the Viewer 2 forum setup, and in order to get it going quickly, didn't move and reorganise old posts from the old system. However, please feel free to criticise Viewer 2 as much as you like, as long as you stick to the forum guidelines while doing it.

Also, speaking on behalf of the Viewer 2 team - which I'm not really a member of - making criticisms in a constructive manner will improve their chances of being addressed. Alternatively, go for comedy value. ("My Viewer 2 walks into a bar...")

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Yoz Linden wrote:

 

Also, speaking on behalf of the Viewer 2 team - which I'm not really a member of - 

 

:smileyvery-happy:

Can I use this line? "speaking on behalf of Linden Lab who I'm not actually employed by"

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Most people hate Viewer 2 still. Give them time to fill up this forum with another wave of creative dissing of the worst thing LL has ever introduced - Viewer 2.

I do bet that LL has not the guts to put up another poll about Viewer 2 though... LOL!

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You can criticize here, I'm assuming.

And much of the previous criticism (especially older posts) has to do with things that have since been addressed anyway.

Even recently I've seen posts criticizing Viewer 2 issues that haven't existed in V2 for months.

That isn't to say Viewer 2.5 is perfect. Nor am I excusing the mess that Viewer 2.0 was. But Viewer 2.5 is very new and is a different viewer from Viewer 2.0. I don't believe Viewer 2.0, released a year ago, is even supported at this point.

It also appears that Viewer 2.5.1 is coming shortly, and Viewer 2.6 (even Viewer 2.7) is in early development. The older discussions are quickly becoming irrelevant. Some of it already is.

At the rate its going, we'll probably be talking about Viewer 3 before 2011 is done.

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Yoki Enoch wrote:

Most people hate Viewer 2 still.

 

I don't know if "most" is the correct term, but I like it. And I agree that many of those who dislike it haven't even tried the latest version. Once you learn where things have moved to, it grows on you. I have trouble with the ancient 1.x interface now.

 

My main wish for V2 is implementation of standard menu items, the ones that exist on every OS. We need File and Edit menus at the very least. I'm not sure why these basic essentials were removed, but I think having those would make it easier for people to locate some of the interface items they believe are "missing" right now.

 

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Paladin Pinion wrote:

 

Yoki Enoch wrote:

Most people hate Viewer 2 still.

 
I don't know if "most" is the correct term, but I like it. And I agree that many of those who dislike it haven't even tried the latest version. Once you learn where things have moved to, it grows on you. I have trouble with the ancient 1.x interface now.

 
My main wish for V2 is implementation of standard menu items, the ones that exist on every OS. We need File and Edit menus at the very least. I'm not sure why these basic essentials were removed, but I think having those would make it easier for people to locate some of the interface items they believe are "missing" right now.

 

Oh, yes, it is still "most". Why do you think LL has not run a poll on it? It did in the beginning, but the response was almost 90% negative. LL knows that it is a terrible viewer at its very foundation, but since all those costs have been put out on it, it simply plows ahead, not listening to its "customers," or not wanting to listen to its "customers," because LL knows best, and we all know that Ukranian programmers are the best there be. LOL!

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Yoki Enoch wrote:

Oh, yes, it is still "most". Why do you think LL has not run a poll on it? It did in the beginning, but the response was almost 90% negative. LL knows that it is a terrible viewer at its very foundation, but since all those costs have been put out on it, it simply plows ahead, not listening to its "customers," or not wanting to listen to its "customers," because LL knows best, and we all know that Ukranian programmers are the best there be. LOL!

 

A poll would be pointless for two reasons:

A new viewer can now be expected almost every few weeks. Why put out a Viewer 2.5 poll when Viewer 2.6 is likely less than a month away, and viewer 2.7 will likely be out before the summer?

Most negative responders will probably be those who have a little experience with Viewer 2.0, and absolutely none with Viewer 2.5

Viewer 2 is a series of viewers that have progressed quite dramatically in a year. Viewer 2.5 is NOT Viewer 2.0.

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Yoz Linden wrote:

 Alternatively, go for comedy value. ("My Viewer 2 walks into a bar...")

 

My Viewer 2 walks into a bar with me as we work quite happily together, and are quite happy with the partners others choose to work with. Unfortunately, just as we were enjoying a nice white wine spritzer, a big flaming bird came along and insist we wear a big label over our head to identify our partnership so that they can get their kicks ... or something!

:smileytongue:

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I attended the Viewer 2 Evolution user group meeting this morning and didn't get any real answer as to why text chat is handled the way it is in v2. I'll grant that it's made a lot of progress since last year when it debuted but the atrocious way text is handled and the Lab's refusal to make the screen hogging sidebar totally optional are two major showstoppers for me and many residents.

I could live with the fact that v2 is slower, less intuitive (for me) and that I'd have to make drastic changes to the way I interact with the world, but as someone who rarely uses voice and does more than socialize the separate chat, IM and notifications, the lack of standard menu headings (File, Edit, etc) and the sidebar make v2 a non-starter for me.

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Adam Spark wrote:

 

Yoki Enoch wrote:

Oh, yes, it is still "most". Why do you think LL has not run a poll on it? It did in the beginning, but the response was almost 90% negative. LL knows that it is a terrible viewer at its very foundation, but since all those costs have been put out on it, it simply plows ahead, not listening to its "customers," or not wanting to listen to its "customers," because LL knows best, and we all know that Ukranian programmers are the best there be. LOL!

 

A poll would be pointless for two reasons:

A new viewer can now be expected almost every few weeks. Why put out a Viewer 2.5 poll when Viewer 2.6 is likely less than a month away, and viewer 2.7 will likely be out before the summer?

Most negative responders will probably be those who have a little experience with Viewer 2.0, and absolutely none with Viewer 2.5

Viewer 2 is a series of viewers that have progressed quite dramatically in a year. Viewer 2.5 is NOT Viewer 2.0.

Well I gave Viewer 2.x, a good try last April/May, and gave up in disgust. I tried it again in July, and gave up again. Then in November I tried it a third time. It was the exact same piece of crap each time. The next time I try it, it will be because I am forced to, and by then, I will probably cancel my account for LL insisting that a piece of crap is an upgrade.

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It was my understanding that the new forums were starting fresh for all topics, not just for topics related to viewer 2 criticism.

The irony in all of this is that un-learning the 1x quirks (nested pie menus don't occur randomly in nature) and getting acclimated to the 2x interface takes just a few days at most.  A year has gone by, and quite a few significant changes and improvements have been made, it might be time to stop holding grudges and move on.

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Even Windows has this: in inventory under version one, if the folder or item I wished to access has an initial letter known to me, just hitting that letter key gets me to the next instance of that letter as an initial letter.  A simple shortcut that makes a large inventory manageable, makes organizing inventory worthwhile, and a simple shortcut that has been eliminated in the 'advances' of the V2 UI.  V2 has some undoubted advantages functionally, but the UI does not adhere to these simple standards of functionality.

And some are saying, "Move on, get over it," because they really don't know what they are missing.  Pie menus are a matter of taste.  Changing something from 1 or 2 clicks to 4 clicks is not a matter of taste; it's bad design.

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TriloByte Zanzibar wrote:

It was my understanding that the new forums were starting fresh for all topics, not just for topics related to viewer 2 criticism.

The irony in all of this is that un-learning the 1x quirks (nested pie menus don't occur randomly in nature) and getting acclimated to the 2x interface takes just a few days at most.  A year has gone by, and quite a few significant changes and improvements have been made, it might be time to stop holding grudges and move on.

It is hardly a grudge. Part of my RL job is to adjust to new and different software. After many years of doing this, I have developed a lot of expertise in this area. Rarely have I have ever come across such a poorly designed software product as Viewer 2.x. People CAN adjust to poorly designed or functioning software, but since I am a "customer" here who has contributed to the success of LL, before I leave, I want the company to know why. Viewer 2.x is a downgrade to the extent of it being called a piece of crap. Pure and simple. Others can adjust to a piece of crap if they want. That is their choice.

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I personally like using Viewer 2. I have tried using Viewer 1 based viewers after using Viewer 2, but I could never get used to the layout of Viewer 1. Albiet I was still new to SL when LL introduced Viewer 2 and only used Viewer 1 for a short period of time before discovering Viewer 2 (I am using my alt account right now). I am however not using the Viewer 2 provided by LL. I am using Kirstens Viewer. The only reason I am not using LL's is because it doesn't display the song titles being played. Is there any reason why LL's viewers don't display the song titles?

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Govindira Galatea wrote:

Even Windows has this: in inventory under version one, if the folder or item I wished to access has an initial letter known to me, just hitting that letter key gets me to the next instance of that letter as an initial letter.  A simple shortcut that makes a large inventory manageable, makes organizing inventory worthwhile, and a simple shortcut that has been eliminated in the 'advances' of the V2 UI.  V2 has some undoubted advantages functionally, but the UI does not adhere to these simple standards of functionality.

In Viewer 2.5 once you start typing in the Inventory search bar it brings up those items with the string matching what you type as you type it.  This seems to me to be much better than just finding folders or items with that initial letter.  In SL you may want to find a 'rose' but not remember where that occurred in the name.  This way by the time you typed 'rose' all folders/items with that in the object name would be in the inventory pane.

 

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Yoz Linden said:

Also, speaking on behalf of the Viewer 2 team - which I'm not really a member of - making criticisms in a constructive manner will improve their chances of being addressed.

Okay. So I've been using viewer 2 since 2.2 and I still have 2 problems with it, both of which should be easy to fix and yet we are still stuck with them. Admittedly, some may say these are minor issues but as of 2.4 they are what bugs me the most about viewer 2:

1) The dark black theme. I have never liked dark depressing user interfaces. We all know the UI colors are controlled in XML files. Why can't we have downloadable themes or at least a tutorial or instructions so I can make my own XML theme files with lighter colours?

2) The editor built into viewer 2 still doesn't line up the cursor with the text you are editing properly on large files. This is very common for scripts and when writing instructions for new products. It is a huge problem when trying to edit what has already been written.

If those two issues ever get fixed I'm sure I'll find some other problems but there are some really good aspects. Top of my list of crucial features for the viewer (aside from not crashing) is fps and viewer 2 beats everything else I've tried by a good margin. My top two favourite features of viewer 2 are the outfit aliases and the quick access landmarks along the top of the viewer. Thanks viewer team for all the hard work.

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Curious Hazelnut wrote:

1) The dark black theme. I have never liked dark depressing user interfaces. We all know the UI colors are controlled in XML files. Why can't we have downloadable themes or at least a tutorial or instructions so I can make my own XML theme files with lighter colours?

 

The StarLight skin for Viewer 2 provides two lighter themes (one of which is similar in colour to the old 'Silver' skin) and is becoming more widely used - and I am writing a guide on how to tailor it to create your own (hopefully ready in April).

 


Curious Hazelnut wrote:

2) The editor built into viewer 2 still doesn't line up the cursor with the text you are editing properly on large files. This is very common for scripts and when writing instructions for new products. It is a huge problem when trying to edit what has already been written.

I did think that an option was, or is, going to be provided for using an external editor - but I may be wrong there.  Someone else may know more.  And yes, I agree it is a pain.

 

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In Viewer 2.5 once you start typing in the Inventory search bar it brings up those items with the string matching what you type as you type it.  This seems to me to be much better than just finding folders or items with that initial letter.  In SL you may want to find a 'rose' but not remember where that occurred in the name.  This way by the time you typed 'rose' all folders/items with that in the object name would be in the inventory pane.

You have to wait and wait and wait for the results of such search-based inventory accesses.  Secondly, it presents you with far more information than required.  

Example: I'm putting an outfit together with a dress from Rotten Toes and boots from Redgrave.  I remember the clothing makers/stores but not the item names.  In a large inventory, mostly you remember the from-whom/where you bought it, what it is, but NOT its name.

Version 1: In my clothing folder, I touch the "r" key and I'm at the Rotten Toes folder.  I open it and am reminded of the name of the dress I want by its presence in the subfolders shown in the Rotten Toes folder.  I wear them.  Then, I back arrow to get to the top of the clothing folder and open my shoes folder, hit "r" again and I'm at the Redgrave subfolder, open that and see the boots I want and wear them.

Version 2.x: on the search bar, I type in "rott" and get the Rotten Toes folder, but none of its contents because they have a different name from the folder.  I highlight the Rotten Toes folder and close the search bar,scroll to and then open the Rotten Toes folder to wear the items I want.  Then, I open the search folder, type in "redg" and get the Redgrave folder but none of its contents, highlight it, then close the search folder, then scroll to and open the Redgrave folder.  After I open the Redgrave folder, I then wear the items.  During the search, I wait and wait and wait because instead of my fast random access meat memory (my brain), I have to wait until SL has provided me with ALL my inventory (24,000+ items) in order to get a search result.  Even with all my inventory accessible to my client, I still have to wait because searches take time.

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Govindira Galatea wrote:

You have to wait and wait and wait for the results of such search-based inventory accesses.  Secondly, it presents you with far more information than required.  

Example: I'm putting an outfit together with a dress from Rotten Toes and boots from Redgrave.  I remember the clothing makers/stores but not the item names.  In a large inventory, mostly you remember the from-whom/where you bought it, what it is, but NOT its name.

 

I find that it returns the results instantaneously - most of the time the inventory is quickly available.

Maybe I am different in that I shop around and end up with items from many shops (though having my favourites of course) and tend to order them by what they are rather than who I bought them from.  But I can see that if you do order stuff like that then Viewer 2 would be a little bit slower for you.

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How representative is that sample? People tend to be a lot more motivated to kvetch than to compliment, so looking at comments in blogs and forums is liable to not be representative. Ditto for surveys with self-selected respondents. (Hey, there's a poll on that !#%!@ 2.0 SL client! I'll take it, and I'll tell ALL my friends to take it, too!)

I've gotten somewhat used to the 2.x UI..What I hate about the 2.x client, and clients based on it, is that it's a tossup whether I can use the client, or whether it will, after a few minutes, allocate all available RAM, slow to a crawl, and then crash.

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