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Viewer-Managed Marketplace: Inworld Feedback Session

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Inara Pey wrote:

A summary of the meeting, with transcript of the Q&A is available here:

There will be (as stated elsewhere in this thread) a further meeting in the New Year.

Thanks for the summary and this link to it Inara!

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Reading your analysis, apparently there is more work to be done on the intuitive bits.

I'm coining a new phrase in honor of your rapid fire critique ... sassified. The urban dictionary says otherwise, but what do they know?

The good news is that there may yet be a direct delivery burning bear. The only thing I would request here for bears as well as the next iteration of Second Life though is to nix the teal. Teal, as well as orange are institutional colors from the 1970's.

Teal should be avoided at all costs though, and generally is, in branding and bears.

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You know what i would love and i am sure other would as well? A vendor that links to our MP stores.. For inworld use in a shop. Something like the Caspervend system. Multipanel, single Land Impact, automatically links to your MP store, can set different vendors to have different sets of products.. Hell i would even still pay the 5% commission..

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

You know what i would love and i am sure other would as well? A vendor that links to our MP stores.. For inworld use in a shop. Something like the Caspervend system. Multipanel, single Land Impact, automatically links to your MP store, can set different vendors to have different sets of products.. Hell i would even still pay the 5% commission..

I'd love to be able to get rid of inworld sales records, and just have it all on the marketplace in one place with out having to down loading  records every 30 days.  It would be nice to do this directly from a prim with a option to link to a marketplace item. 

But untill then, I've seen a few stores just having their vendors open up a link to the marketplace listing, I think this is a good way of doing it because the customer then gets to see the full description, extra pictures, has the option of gifting, getting a demo if there is one, reviewing.  Problem being convincing customers of this.

I've have a marketplace link  vendor script to do this where you can link your entire store and just have the one script for all of your sell boxes, and because they are  linked you can cut the LI in half.  you can all so use it if you like to link to a category or keyword in you marketplace store. 

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Well, depending on your vending system, you can get rid of inworld transactions. I can't remember when I last looked at any LL system for reporting.

 

My vending system takes the Marketplace ANS sales feed and correlates that with inworld sales, logged to our own SQL database but other commercial vending systems do the same as could your own.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Well, depending on your vending system, you can get rid of inworld transactions. I can't remember when I last looked at any LL system for reporting.

 

My vending system takes the Marketplace ANS sales feed and correlates that withinworld sales, logged to our ownSQL database but other commercial vending systems do the same as could your own.

Those are probably the best solutions for how SL currently works, but after vmm is running it would seem like LL would be much closer to being able to merge the 2 if we could just associate a prims content with a folder similar to the marketplace listings folder, and then have those transactions tracked like the marketplace not the normal inworld transactions. 

I just sell for fun, and fun for me dosen't include managing vendor systems or creating databases, and my sales don't justify spending the time to do so.  All I really need is a customer list for sending out updates.  If I were to start over I'd likely get a vendor system but at this point it's a bit to late.  By the time I'm ready to start over again (still learning mesh) the next generation platform is likely to be up, and I would hope has bettter record keeping tools.

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OK, I don't mean to keep singling you out here, but a Sassy Linden was only just now created. I knew it all along ... you are a secret Linden! Just when I started believing my therapist that my paranoia was unfounded.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Bugger...my world just ended. 

I'll have to delete this account now and revert to one of the many alts :matte-motes-impatient:

No, no, no.......don't cancel.

File for Trademark infringement and AR for impersonating you!

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Well, thanks for spending the time to inform us all of the horror ahead of us all.

Personally, I just don't have the time. As I said in my 1 and only other post in this thread, LL needs to actually do something to get merchants involved. They need to give us a reason, other than LL might totally f it up. That is not really a big incentive. If they f it up, then they better revert immediately back to the old system. DUH! I didn't go off on LL to be an a$$. I did it to wake them up, and really get merchants involved. If we have no incentives, then we have other things to do, that do have incentives.

Like I said in my other post. at the very least, they should suspend commission fees for merchants that give feedback, and try the system. If I were LL, I would actually get the top 200 merchants, and pay them directly to test the system. As a business person, it's a 1 time cost to ensure that you get good feedback. I'm not trying to get paid by LL. I don't give a crap. I have better things to do. I would rather not deal with this at all. That said, the only way I'll be involved, is if I was paid. I'd rather others were paid, people I know and trust, like yourself Sassy.

 

Question to LL:

Why don't you have a video tutorial for merchants who want to try this? It literally takes 5 min to make a video. Plus, video can be shared to spread the word.

oops, just watched the video of the meeting. Seems videos are coming.

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It seems there is a reference to my statements in the meeting, so I'll address it.

LL should look at this situation from the merchant's point of view. We have a marketplace that has many, many issues, and is in no way better than Xstreet was. Well, maybe direct delivery has some benefits. I'll give you that. The Listing Enhancements are a joke, and have been broken for years now. Why can't this be fixed? You do realize that it is completely ridiculous that it is still broken? You do realize that you make money off this feature? Why is it stil broken?

I run my own marketplace. It works. All of it works, and never fails. I have coupons, and they work, everytime. I can process any credit card there is. I can post any kind of data on it, including 3D viewers that allow users to see the models in 3D, and it's wireframe. I just posted a complete 3D demo of some of my animations for a product. Can we do this on LL's Marketplace? And LL has a team working on it full time.

The reason I made my original post was because I have little faith in LL's team. I have so little faith in you, because of what I see on your Marketplace. Again, how exactly do you allow the Listing Enhancements to be broken for this long? I can only assume that your team is under staffed and you need help. Part of that help is getting competent people to test what you do. I pay people to test stuff all the time. The more important the product, the more people I pay to test it all. It's a common practice.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

If I were LL, I would actually get the top 200 merchants, and pay them directly to test the system. As a business person, it's a 1 time cost to ensure that you get good feedback. 

If I were them, I would get a range of more than 200, and I most certainly would not simply pick the "top" of anything. That isn't going to give you the kind of data you need about user experiences. You  need a wide variety of data from numerous different angles. Information from the top sellers, middle of the ground sellers, and even lower level sellers, is all valuable information for them. On top of that, information from consumers who are not merchants, can be valuable as well, since they will be the end customers of such a system.

Taking only the top is going to skew your results.

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Thanks to those who have shared information and feedback on the Viewer-Managed Marketplace. We have received some great suggestions. These issues (and some bugs) have been imported into JIRA:

  • VMM-23 Better error message when attempting to associate with a listing ID that is not available
  • VMM-22 Drop zone for Marketplace Listing floater (similar to Merchant Outbox)
  • VMM-21 Error message when dragging item onto ground from Marketplace Listings floater
  • VMM-20 Include product listing ID in audit listings window results
  • VMM-19 Edit listing behavior when listing is incomplete
  • VMM-18 Add "sort by age of listing creation"
  • VMM-17 Support listing folders at any level of Marketplace Listings folder
  • VMM-16 Provide "Copy to Marketplace Listings" option

If we have missed some feedback or you have new feedback, please feel free to create a new JIRA in the VMM project. If you would like to review VMM JIRAs that have already been filed and provide feedback, you can view the issues here.


Thank you for your feedback. We will update you in the new year with details on the next meeting.

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Very good, thank you.  And especially thanks to Sassy who spent considerable time testing and reporting on these crucially important things. 

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CommerceTeam Linden wrote:

Include product listing ID in audit listings window results

I've updated the JIRA but that was my first observation but that's redundant UI design and actually not that helpful.  My later observation was that the audit dialog is completely redundant since the objective appears to be to show listings with faults in them.

Better would be to reflect this in the main dialog where the folders are listed.  Change the folder icon to a broken one, turn it to an alternate colour, provide a tab to then show "Broken listings" along with the other tabs on that dialog box.

That's where we would have to go in order to edit it anyway so having a separate dialog where we have to then cross reference a number back to a location where we actually fix it is superfluous.  Similarly, there's no point listing all the listings in the audit that have no errors.  See why it's redundant?

If you absolutely can't code this and insist on the lazy approach of a generated list (which I appreciate is a fraction of the coding time), then I would suggest a filter to only show broken listings and make the entries in that list hyperlink to the actual listing in the Marketplace Listings window.

Think about the workflow, how the users will act upon the information returned.

Let me put it in coder speak.  If you've just hit the compile button in your compiler and it generates output, the output window doesn't list every line with no errors, it lists the lines of code WITH errors and then if it's a decent compiler, you can click on each and get taken to the line of code to fix it.  You don't it pop up in a window and then have to go and find the line in your IDE.  I'm asking for the same.

Also, you missed another suggestion:-

Limited stock items, since there's a count maintained within the Marketplace Listings system, this would be helpful if it were reflected on the listing page for the customer instead of just (Limited Quantities Available).

(I appreciate this is a web change and not core "Marketplace Listings" code change but c'mon, it's not exactly out of scope of the whole point behind this update to Marketplace delivery in providing new functionality for delivery of limited stock items).

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I am reading about this a bit after the fact so I hope this does not go overlooked. I am going with the thought to never assume anything, but with Linden Labs trying to cut the number of http traffic, one thing that would be huge both from a monetary and a stability standpoint is to do away with the current separate language system for the customers page.

Under the assumption that if the whole marketplace system is managed within the viewer, then the user will have thier own viewer set to thier own language which would solve that problem once and for all.

The problem we currently have is that in order for us to sell or list an item in another users language we have to translate it and post it separately within each listing. Not only is this an amazing waste of energy and effort, this is something that should be automatic and has been broken for years.

That and being able to properly post live url links on each item page as well as the ability to add social media add / join buttons should also be a priority to this update to the system. This would also help alliviate group post traffic for promotions and advertising.

If I refer correctly to an office hours session in 2011 it seems to me that one of the goals was to return property groups back to property control only and stop using them for advertising spam and we know that the current limit is now 250 active users that actually see a post if they are not running spam filters (no matter how many are actually in a group or online), but you haven't offered proper useable alternatives to the system and contact lists are not an option.

The marketplace system as a whole needs to be brought up to the standards of today's user, which would also partly explain the continuing drop in registered and daily users. People are tired of things never working or keeping up with modern trends.

So many things are broken in here and have been for so long and I cannot understand that considering the amount of commissions you charge us for sales that this would not have been fixed years ago. It's your money too. Instead of charging your users more for membership and tier, you are losing money by not repairing current issues and seeing the larger picture and staying with current web trends.

The real irony of all this is that a lot of the problems we have in this system are working and fixed in other virtual worlds using your own LSL code.

I could go on and on about things we really need in here that are years behind on implementation but most of us know these things already.

I certainly hope you finally get it right this time. And by the way, I am not a new user, I have been in this system for over 8 years watching the lack of change.

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Do I understand it correctly that you're proposing that a default could be to call a language translation API to automatically translate to the other languages, while also allowing manual entry where suitable?

Guess

Also. The whole of MP listings are NOT managed within the viewer here. This is mostly about the inventory management part only.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

You know what i would love and i am sure other would as well? A vendor that links to our MP stores.. For inworld use in a shop. Something like the Caspervend system. Multipanel, single Land Impact, automatically links to your MP store, can set different vendors to have different sets of products.. Hell i would even still pay the 5% commission..

I personally have thought and talked about this many times already. Marketplace is a 2D website selling things for a 3D world. That doesn't work together well. While LL is earning 5% commission on every sale, they loose tier on inworld space as many people don't have any inworld shop any more. In my opinion they would make much more earnings on tier. Since many rentals stay empty now, sims that rely on rentals (like live music venues etc) are closing as they can't cover the tier on their own. Due to that many nice locations are closing and the overall inworld experience gets worse as there are fewer and fewer locations the user can visit. It also makes it way easier for thieves to sell their content quick in big quantities which harms the creators. Many have left SL because of this already and we get fewer and fewer quality items being developed. While it took years to become a reputable merchant in the past, now you can become a 'top-seller' and have your items at top of the search results in just days while a DMCA (even if done online) often still takes weeks until it is being processed. During that time the merchant looses a lot of money.

In my opinion it would be best if it would be a requirement to have a vendor (or add-on script with API) with that specific item inworld to be able to list that item on marketplace. Marketplace should just be a location where people can quickly search for their needs, then *have* to visit the inworld location to actually buy the item. LL could still take their 5% cut (or less since ALL the merchants sales go through this vendor, not just the marketplace ones, and since tier is paid) from the sale AND get tier from the land used while the user is able to see the content inworld in 3D and contributes to the traffic which helps the merchant as well. Also they might see some other items nearby that they like and buy which they don't see in marketplace really as it is at the far bottom of the page and only shows a max of 8 'related' items.

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One more thing to mention is, that even though i have set to receive emails about new posts, I didn't get a notification about the inworld meeting, so I couldn't attend it simply because I didn't knew about it.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

.... 

Personally, I have neither the time nor the money to waste testing things for LL, especially when I have to do alot of work to get that set up on the beta grid. Who is going to pay me for that time? What benefit do I get helping to test LL's stuff? How can myself, doing all that work to test this on the beta grid, actually reflect what will happen on the real grid? 

....

I think the same way. I am happy to contribute by listening to the planned changes and give feedback and ideas how to improve it, but I am not going to Beta-test the whole system for them. I started doing it back in the DD beta group for limited quantity items until I decided to not do it any more since it was that buggy that after only a few minutes of testing I found new bugs, like items that were no copy to me were delivered full perm etc., which took ages to be fixed and I got tired of it and left. I have lots other things to do and no one pays me for that time. Is that maybe the reason why DD doesn't support limited quantity items? Who knows.. If LL plans to implement new things, they should get quality staff to test those things for them, otherwise they will spend way more time and money afterwards for fixing issues while the service is life.

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I have been trying to find a place to voice a few concerns other than the bug tracker where one can speak in plain english. I have also tried to find answers to some of what I have issues with but the layout of this system is not easy to follow so I know this is well after the fact, but I will post this here so that possibly someone will see this and throw these thoughts into the VMM project.

My partner and I are involved with several of the animal trades inworld and everything is trans only and we have various stores focused on each brand, breed or item that we deal with. I have items with one particular animal that sell out daily and spend every day dealing with failures and issues because of marketplace.

I will try and keep this condensed as possible. One particular product we have to wait on the live animals to create and deliver items daily. Some days there may be 5 and some may be 55 or more. We try and keep 10 boxes of 10 of these various items instock daily as they sell out every day and is our highest demanded seller.There are three types, all identical. It takes multiple magic boxes and restocking several times daily to keep up.

One of the biggest issues and I have dealt with this with marketplace with everything we have ever sold, when dealing with limited quantity items, the customer has no clue how many are in the system and may try to purchase 30 when there are only 3 there. The delivery fails and the link to the page breaks.

This problem would dissapear completely if the people simply knew how many were in stock and I have never understood why this information is not shown in reasonably large print on the listing. This would have saved years of failures and support tickets. In the http this could be coded so that if someone tried to order more than what is in stock they would get a " not enough items in stock" warning and a "please set to a lower amount and try again" with a refresh button of some sort.

The bottom line here, the amount in stock shows on the merhcants page, then it should not be hard to show it on the listing page. This is huge and should have been there from the very beginning.

In other thoughts:

I have seen several that feel they should be compansated for helping test the beta, but the bottom line, anyone that wants this to work better and are tired of the issues should be happy to help and I would gladly throw all 5 of our marketplace stores into this project if I could find someone to work with within the system. Looking at the big picture, with the new grid in the future, it would be adventageous to all if we could get this system updated, modernized and finally working the way it should have been to be ready for the future grid and what that will be rather than drag 12 years of issues onto the new grid, now is the time as the future is near.

A bit of background here, I am a semi retired broadcast engineer and spent my life designing and building am/fm and television stations and systems and a trained troubleshooter and now own a small computer store in real life and am well versed in windows and others and a certified tech and reseller but I am a novice at LSL and things related to it but as a trained troubleshooter and having the daily MP sales to back up the problems we encounter I am here voluntarily to roll up my sleeves and get started. If a Linden wanted to speak to me I am very easy to find and am willing to help test products and viewers.

it is easy to complain about problems and very few will want to roll in the dirt it takes to solve them but I would gladly bet a years tier that I spend more time in marketplace daily solving problems than any Linden does and I have the yearly sales to show I have made it work well since 2011 in this avatar and farther back than that.

Secondlife is a user created world. It got here by hard work and dedication. If everyone felt like some of the others on this page then it never would have gotten this far. You get what you put in no matter what life it is.

Now if the bug tracker was only done in plain english........

 

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You're right about the quantities but i'd already highlighted this in BOLD in an earlier post :)

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Viewer-Managed-Marketplace-Inworld-Feedback-Session/m-p/2877516#M51940

My complaint is more about the covert engagement process that is adopted.  If the team engaged with their stakeholders in a better way, they wouldn't deliver the wrong solution and then get spanked by people complaining.  Oh and the fact that we've told them/suggested over and over and over about how to do it right and what we *really* need only to be given something else.  I think it's that part that people are pushing back on in terms of help, why tell them the same again only to be ignored?

 

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Insanity: Repeating the same action while each time expecting a different outcome

No, sorry .. that's a self-description, not a comment against LL. Why did I expect this time around to be different?

*SIGH*

 

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Thank you all for the additional feedback. We have folded much of it into a new Viewer-Managed Marketplace Project Viewer, which we plan to release later this month (February 2015). Once we have released the updated viewer, we’ll schedule time to gather feedback in another inworld session.

Stay tuned for more details here.

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I don't think this warrants its own Jira yet, but it's something I want to bring up.

It doesn't seem like a folder hierarchy tree-view is a good way to manage things. From playing with VMM a bit, it appears as though you have one level of folder for all of your products, below that, you have specific products, and then below that level, you have specific versions. A tree-view folder hierarchy implies that the different levels don't matter. I.E. there is no need for a parent-child relationship between folders. And from my playing with it, it appears there is.

Example is I created a large folder of objects and dragged it directly into the listings window. It ended up dropping in a few items, picking a random item and making that the name of a folder, and then putting objects in that folder. I tried two times and each time, the item for the folder for everything to go into was a random object in the list of objects.

So I would have

  1. Marketplace Listings
  2. ---Folder I dragged into Marketplace Listings folder in Marketplace Listings window
  3. --- --- random folder name from available objects
  4. --- --- --- Objects

I fixed it by setting things up as

  1. Product Name
  2. --- Product Version
  3. --- --- Objects

and dragging that to the window. And it worked reliably. It feels like I am doing this wrong, but the interface doesn't make it overly explicit that that's how it should be done. You do it wrong and it looks like the thing doesn't work properly, because there's nothing to guide the user on what to do and there's no meaningful error messages to indicated you've done something wrong. The only visible clue I had was that the version folder thing had lines on the folder icon and the others didn't.

It feels like the interface isn't clear enough on what you should be doing. It would be more convenient and more clear if you just had a textbox where you typed in the name of the listing, and then dragged folders full of items into an area after that listing has been selected, and then right click to activate that folder as current version of the listing.

I guess another way to explain my issue with this interface design is that you're using the same widgets to perform several actions: create listing, activate item, and edit listing. And this widget is a tree-view where you're supposed to just know that the top layer is a folder that gets listing folders added to it while the listing folders gets the folders full of content to list.

It's vague and confusing. I really don't think tree-view is the way to go about this. I tried to make a mock up in qt designer since it's quicker than gimp or photoshop, but it's difficult to get across properly.

But as a positive, I am really happy besides the interface. Normally it can take a few minutes for an item to show up on marketplace website when I use merchant outbox, and VMM was instant, even with a large folder. Sometimes with merchant outbox, it can take 10 minutes or more for my object to show up in the unassociated group. I think that clearing up interface issues is the current problem. Performance of this new system was really surprising to me in a good way. I am looking forward to what happens after the shift.

I will say, though, that the initial failure to create folders properly leaves me concerned about how the automatic importing will go. As it stands, I have my folders organized like

Object 1.0.0

Object 1.0.1

And it sounds like it should be

Object

--- 1.0.0

--- 1.0.1

to be compatible with the way VMM is right now. If it's the first way, dragging the main folder on will cause problems (at least it did for me).

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