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bebejee

Why do some houses suffer from gigantism?

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The rest of you might well have understood what the OP meant, but that was just an assumption on your part. There was nothing in her post to indicate that she was exaggerating. She used the word 'giants' and the phrase 'thrice the normal avatar size', so she may well have meant really huge houses. Written communications are always better when they don't rely on the readers' making assumptions. After all, it's so very easy to write what is actually meant. But I'll go back to the OP's first post and reply to it as though she meant something different to what she wrote.

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bebejee wrote:

I have come accroos some really nice houses but both outside and inside they are built like for avatars thrice the size of regular avs, whats with this? make one feel like Alice in wonderland iin such places, can they be shrunk?

They are made for "giants" that are "thrice the size of regular avs". Remember that the SL world is not the RL world, and the sizes of things in SL don't have to match their RL equivalents.

What you are really saying in your post is that some houses are not built to suit you. They suit other people though - and it's their world too ;)

All you need to do is look around until you find a nice house that suits you. Or shrink one of the big ones.

 

ETA:

To answer the question in your title, those houses don't suffer from "gigantism". They are made to suit normally sized avatars that are taller than their RL equivalents, which is perfectly normal in a world that isn't RL. There is absolutely no reason why SL should mimic RL in terms of sizes. If a person wants RL sizes, they can have them in SL. If a person want non-RL sizes they can have them in SL.

In the body of your post, you asked, "what's with this?" The answer is nothing. My question to you is, 'Why question it, knowing that SL is not RL and isn't intended to match RL?'

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Further to my first post:

Here's a picture taken in a very popular (high search-rating, at least) prefab home seller's store. I haven't edited the image other than to crop it and add the coloured bars for scale. My avatar was adjusted to be 2m tall (including hair and heels) to act as a ruler. Two metres, around six feet seven, would be exceptionally tall for any person in RL.

door proportions.png

The door is about four metres tall and two wide, the room about six metres tall. The door-handle falls above my eye level and is about as long as my forearm. Even an avatar of maximum height (using the normal shape editor) would look small standing against this door. There is nothing in the store's advertising or literature to suggest this home, or any of their others, was built with 'giant' avatars in mind. This house is built out of proportion to almost any avatar in SL.

I've seen this kind of error in many houses around SL, and it says something that I can go to one of the busiest prefab stores on the grid and find it in the first house I look at. 

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Presumably there are people who want houses that big for their avatars. If not, then the seller won't sell any.

It's a mistake to say, "Two metres, around six feet seven, would be exceptionally tall for any person in RL" when using it as a comparison with SL. SL is not RL, and there is no reason at all to mimic RL sizes. SL is a different world entirely, and we make it what we want to make it. There are some, of course, who really do want to make it with RL sizing, and they do it, but that doesn't mean that that's how is should be. It just means they like it that way. Others don't. The only thing we should all do concerning sizes is have them exactly as we want to have them. That's what SL is all about.

 

ETA: The size of that house has nothing to do with the default camera position so, if it's that size of house that the OP meant, the 'camera position' replies didn't fit the bill, and those who thought they knew what the OP meant were mistaken ;)

 

ETA2: It's an astonishing size for a house, though, even in SL. I wonder if it really is a huge error on the creator's part, or if there are people who actually want houses that big. I'm assuming that your avatar is not a midget, of course :)

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

SL is
not
RL, ...

It is totally uneccessary to state so emphatically that SL is not RL (over and over again). I'm sure all SL users know exactly which is which. Nobody here is so delusional who would think that they are the same. :smileywink:

Anyway...

 

It has been already discussed earlier many times over why it is important to use consistent sizing of things. Where do we have a reference for consistent sizing of things? Of course it is in RL, there things are sized so that they are comfortable to use for most people. Why not use that sizing also in a virtual world? Would it not "work" or what is it? Is it because it is "Your World - Your Imagination" equals to "build to whatever sizes you wish - because this is Virtual World, it does not matter if the virtual world has non-consistently sized content"? What?

 

Would there be any benefits if we used RL as a reference in content building? Surely there would be. There would no more guessing to what size to make a chair, a table, a kitchen sink, a cabinet, a cup, a glass, aplate, etc. You just measure the RL items and make them exactly to same size in SL, using 1 RLm = 1 SLm. Done. All items created by this method will look great and exactly the right size in relation to any other item created by this method. Perfect exact balance in the size of things, just like in RL. This is simple, it is easy, it is perfect method for consistent sizing.Why to invent something more complicated (like GAH, or some other weird haphazard thing)?

 

How about building by the, your preferred, GAH (General Avatars Height) method? Naturally as there is no GAH defined anywhere, every creator will have their own personal GAH to which they build things. If they want that their content in SL looks consistent in sizing they will have to:

• determine how tall this GAH is in meters in your thinking

• find out what is the average human height in RL

• calculate upsizing factor (GAH divided by average human height)

• when building multiply all RL measured things by this upsizing factor

or

• never mind the upsizing factor, just build everything by eyeballing things so that it looks "thereabouts" right

 

Which method produces more consistent sizing of things and more beautiful world? Using RL as the exact guide or the GAH method?

 


Phil Deakins wrote:


bebejee wrote:

I have come accroos some really nice houses but both outside and inside they are built like for avatars thrice the size of regular avs, whats with this? make one feel like Alice in wonderland iin such places, can they be shrunk?

To answer the question in your title, those houses don't suffer from "gigantism". They are made to suit normally sized avatars that are taller than their RL equivalents...

There lies the problem; how tall exactly is "normally sized avatar"? Or the average height of "normally sized avatars"?

Of course there is no poll ever made, with large enough sample, of SL avatar heights to be able to define the average height for it. So how to size things for this elusive "normal sized avatar"? It's impossible, as the results we can observe in SL clearly show.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

<snip>

....and there is no reason at all to mimic RL sizes.

</snip>


No, nothing mandates mimicking RL sizes.

But there could be reasons, especially now, why it could be beneficial.

The primary one would be better use of resources.  Reduce the footprint of a house and have a little more room left for landscaping for instance.  And now with Mesh objects where Land Impact is affected by size, that would be an additional reason.

While some people may start out in SL with the idea that they want to be a giant, how many of us do you really think start out thinking that?  And please don't fall back on "I've no way of knowing."  Make an educated guess.  Like what were you thinking when you made all your furniture you sold?

All of us when we started were presented with "giant" Ava's by the RL scale and I doubt very many of us thought, "OMG, I'm 8 foot tall!"

The what I now refer to as a mistake that got us where we are still goes back to 2003 when it should have been corrected.  Read again carefully what Andrew Linden said.

"The historical reason the "middle of the sliders" avatar is taller than the average human is because our last non-modifiable avatar back in pre-alpha just happened to be that tall (a guy we called "Primitar".) Then we changed how the avatars looked without changing the physical representation of the avatar on the server, and their default size was scaled to match the collision model.

They took an easy out when they changed how the Ava's looked.  Perhaps that is understandable.  Changing the physical representation ON THE SERVER would have been a much more complex undertaking than what they did.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Then we changed how the avatars looked without changing the physical representation of the avatar on the server, and their default size was scaled to match the collision model.

They took an easy out when they changed how the Ava's looked.  Perhaps that is understandable.  Changing the physical representation ON THE SERVER would have been a much more complex undertaking than what they did.

 I still don't understand what you are pointing at here.

What 'collision model' ( the model that is handled by the physics engine ? ) and did it have different values for height or camera-angle ?

And in what way did that affect builds ?

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TDD123 wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

Then we changed how the avatars looked without changing the physical representation of the avatar on the server, and their default size was scaled to match the collision model.

They took an easy out when they changed how the Ava's looked.  Perhaps that is understandable.  Changing the physical representation ON THE SERVER would have been a much more complex undertaking than what they did.

 I still don't understand what you are pointing at here.

What 'collision model' ( the model that is handled by the physics engine ? ) and did it have different values for height or camera-angle ?

And in what way did that affect builds ?

It is the avatars "bounding box". That is used for detecting avatar's collision to objects. Avatar Agent Height is the height of this collision box. I think Linden Lab further mixed things up as this avatar collision box is shorter that the avatar mesh shape is. And more confusion was added as Linden Lab viewer shows the height of the collision box (i.e. Agent Height) instead of the avatar's mesh height. Now most people just assume that Linden Lab viewer shows the mesh height, which it does not. Lots of confusion.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAgentSize

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetBoundingBox

 

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TDD123 wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

Then we changed how the avatars looked without changing the physical representation of the avatar on the server, and their default size was scaled to match the collision model.

They took an easy out when they changed how the Ava's looked.  Perhaps that is understandable.  Changing the physical representation ON THE SERVER would have been a much more complex undertaking than what they did.

 I still don't understand what you are pointing at here.

What 'collision model' ( the model that is handled by the physics engine ? ) and did it have different values for height or camera-angle ?

And in what way did that affect builds ?

I don't understand this well enough to speak eloquently about it.  On the server we are just represented as a bounding box.  Primitar must have been tall.  When they replaced it with the Avatar, they sized the Avatar to fit that bounding box.  The server really knows nothing of arms and legs hence why when you are dancing for instance you can appear to move through another Ava.  But when you actually move from one place to another you colide with things, physics comes into play.

I doubt if it had any relation to camera angles.

My guess, based on the 2003 thread, is that what hapenned is when people started building, they sized things to match the Ava's they were given.  Instead of thinking, "I need to make my Ava shorter," they just made things bigger.  And they also discovered that because of the default camera angle they needed higher ceilings, etc. 

 

ETA, Thank you Coby.

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

 

SL is
not
RL, ...

It is totally uneccessary to state so emphatically that SL is not RL (over and over again). I'm sure all SL users know exactly which is which. Nobody here is so delusional who would think that they are the same. :smileywink:

Anyway...

 

It has been already discussed earlier many times over why it is important to use
consistent
sizing of things. Where do we have a reference for consistent sizing of things? Of course it is in RL, there things are sized so that they are comfortable to use for most people. Why not use that sizing also in a virtual world? Would it not "work" or what is it? Is it because it is "Your World - Your Imagination" equals to "build to whatever sizes you wish - because this is Virtual World, it does not matter if the virtual world has non-consistently sized content"? What?

 

Would there be any benefits if we used RL as a reference in content building? Surely there would be. There would no more guessing to what size to make a chair, a table, a kitchen sink, a cabinet, a cup, a glass, aplate, etc. You just measure the RL items and make them exactly to same size in SL, using 1 RLm = 1 SLm. Done. All items created by this method will look great and exactly the right size in relation to any other item created by this method. Perfect exact balance in the size of things, just like in RL. This is simple, it is easy, it is perfect method for consistent sizing.Why to invent something more complicated (like GAH, or some other weird haphazard thing)?

 

How about building by the, your preferred, GAH (General Avatars Height) method? Naturally as there is no GAH defined anywhere, every creator will have their own personal GAH to which they build things. If they want that their content in SL looks consistent in sizing they will have to:

• determine how tall this GAH is in meters in your thinking

• find out what is the average human height in RL

• calculate upsizing factor (GAH divided by average human height)

• when building multiply all RL measured things by this upsizing factor

or

• never mind the upsizing factor, just build everything by eyeballing things so that it looks "thereabouts" right

 

Which method produces more consistent sizing of things and more beautiful world? Using RL as the exact guide or the GAH method?

 

Phil Deakins wrote:


bebejee wrote:

I have come accroos some really nice houses but both outside and inside they are built like for avatars thrice the size of regular avs, whats with this? make one feel like Alice in wonderland iin such places, can they be shrunk?

To answer the question in your title, those houses don't suffer from "gigantism". They are made to suit normally sized avatars that are taller than their RL equivalents...

There lies the problem; how tall exactly is "normally sized avatar"? Or the average height of "normally sized avatars"?

Of course there is no poll ever made, with large enough sample, of SL avatar heights to be able to define the average height for it. So how to size things for this elusive "normal sized avatar"? It's impossible, as the results we can observe in SL clearly show.

 

We could replace GAH with SWAG.

I was in RL Court when the Judge asked the witness where he got his facts. The witness stated that he had "SWAGGED it."  When asked what SWAG meant, the witness replied, "Scientific Wild Arsed Guess."  It took a minute for the Judge to restore order to the Court because of all the laughter that ensued.

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

 

SL is
not
RL, ...

It is totally uneccessary to state so emphatically that SL is not RL (over and over again). I'm sure all SL users know exactly which is which. Nobody here is so delusional who would think that they are the same. :smileywink:

You wouldn't think it is necessary, would you? but in this thread, there does appear to be at least one person who does needed reminding. And, of course, there is no reason not to say it.

Anyway...

 

It has been already discussed earlier many times over why it is important to use
consistent
sizing of things. Where do we have a reference for consistent sizing of things? Of course it is in RL, there things are sized so that they are comfortable to use for most people. Why not use that sizing also in a virtual world? Would it not "work" or what is it? Is it because it is "Your World - Your Imagination" equals to "build to whatever sizes you wish - because this is Virtual World, it does not matter if the virtual world has non-consistently sized content"? What?

I've been around the General Discussion forum, and its predecessors, for many years, and I don't recall ever having seen such a discussion. I've seen a number of discussion about why things are bigger in SL than in RL, but none discussing the importance of consistent sizing. Probably because consistent sizing isn't important at all, so using RL sizes is irrelevant.

No it doesn't matter if SL has inconsistent sizing. In fact, it matters that it doesn't. Then those who like to be small can have small surroundings, and vice versa.

 

Would there be any benefits if we used RL as a reference in content building? Surely there would be. There would no more guessing to what size to make a chair, a table, a kitchen sink, a cabinet, a cup, a glass, aplate, etc. You just measure the RL items and make them exactly to same size in SL, using 1 RLm = 1 SLm. Done. All items created by this method will look great and exactly the right size in relation to any other item created by this method. Perfect exact balance in the size of things, just like in RL. This is simple, it is easy, it is perfect method for consistent sizing.Why to invent something more complicated (like GAH, or some other weird haphazard thing)?

You know very well, from the thrads on that subject, that the default camera position doesn't allow it. Yes, there are a few people who have done it that way, and say they are happy with it, but I tested it more than once and it doesn't work anywhere well enough. If that's not enough, there is a default camera position, which prevents it. On the whole, people don't change the camera's position so a merchant has to make stuff for that camera position.

 

How about building by the, your preferred, GAH (General Avatars Height) method? Naturally as there is no GAH defined anywhere, every creator will have their own personal GAH to which they build things. If they want that their content in SL looks consistent in sizing they will have to:

• determine how tall this GAH is in meters in your thinking

• find out what is the average human height in RL

• calculate upsizing factor (GAH divided by average human height)

• when building multiply all RL measured things by this upsizing factor

or

• never mind the upsizing factor, just build everything by eyeballing things so that it looks "thereabouts" right

If that's what someone wants, they can do it, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

Which method produces more consistent sizing of things and more beautiful world? Using RL as the exact guide or the GAH method?

RL as a guide would be fine, but not 1 to 1. 1 to 1 doesn't work. There's nothing wrong with using RL sizes as a guide, just as there's nothing wrong with a complete abandonment of RL and its sizes. It never happened though.

 

Phil Deakins wrote:


bebejee wrote:

I have come accroos some really nice houses but both outside and inside they are built like for avatars thrice the size of regular avs, whats with this? make one feel like Alice in wonderland iin such places, can they be shrunk?

To answer the question in your title, those houses don't suffer from "gigantism". They are made to suit normally sized avatars that are taller than their RL equivalents...

There lies the problem; how tall exactly is "normally sized avatar"? Or the average height of "normally sized avatars"?

The OP didn't say.

Of course there is no poll ever made, with large enough sample, of SL avatar heights to be able to define the average height for it. So how to size things for this elusive "normal sized avatar"? It's impossible, as the results we can observe in SL clearly show.

I made my avatar so that it was around the average height of males at the time; i.e. by comparison with other male avs, I didn't look short and I didn't look tall. I made my furniture to suit my avatar. More recently, there's been a trend towards shorter avatars for whom much of my furniture is now too big. I think the trend is towards RL sizes and, if that's the case, it's silly, imo. SL is not RL, and there's no good reason to generally copy RL sizes, but there is one
very
good reason not to - the default camera position.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

 

SL is
not
RL, ...

It is totally uneccessary to state so emphatically that SL is not RL (over and over again). I'm sure all SL users know exactly which is which. Nobody here is so delusional who would think that they are the same. :smileywink:

Anyway...

 

It has been already discussed earlier many times over why it is important to use
consistent
sizing of things. Where do we have a reference for consistent sizing of things? Of course it is in RL, there things are sized so that they are comfortable to use for most people. Why not use that sizing also in a virtual world? Would it not "work" or what is it? Is it because it is "Your World - Your Imagination" equals to "build to whatever sizes you wish - because this is Virtual World, it does not matter if the virtual world has non-consistently sized content"? What?

 

Would there be any benefits if we used RL as a reference in content building? Surely there would be. There would no more guessing to what size to make a chair, a table, a kitchen sink, a cabinet, a cup, a glass, aplate, etc. You just measure the RL items and make them exactly to same size in SL, using 1 RLm = 1 SLm. Done. All items created by this method will look great and exactly the right size in relation to any other item created by this method. Perfect exact balance in the size of things, just like in RL. This is simple, it is easy, it is perfect method for consistent sizing.Why to invent something more complicated (like GAH, or some other weird haphazard thing)?

 

How about building by the, your preferred, GAH (General Avatars Height) method? Naturally as there is no GAH defined anywhere, every creator will have their own personal GAH to which they build things. If they want that their content in SL looks consistent in sizing they will have to:

• determine how tall this GAH is in meters in your thinking

• find out what is the average human height in RL

• calculate upsizing factor (GAH divided by average human height)

• when building multiply all RL measured things by this upsizing factor

or

• never mind the upsizing factor, just build everything by eyeballing things so that it looks "thereabouts" right

 

Which method produces more consistent sizing of things and more beautiful world? Using RL as the exact guide or the GAH method?

 

Phil Deakins wrote:


bebejee wrote:

I have come accroos some really nice houses but both outside and inside they are built like for avatars thrice the size of regular avs, whats with this? make one feel like Alice in wonderland iin such places, can they be shrunk?

To answer the question in your title, those houses don't suffer from "gigantism". They are made to suit normally sized avatars that are taller than their RL equivalents...

There lies the problem; how tall exactly is "normally sized avatar"? Or the average height of "normally sized avatars"?

Of course there is no poll ever made, with large enough sample, of SL avatar heights to be able to define the average height for it. So how to size things for this elusive "normal sized avatar"? It's impossible, as the results we can observe in SL clearly show.

 

We could replace GAH with SWAG.

I was in RL Court when the Judge asked the witness where he got his facts. The witness stated that he had "SWAGGED it."  When asked what SWAG meant, the witness replied, "Scientific Wild Arsed Guess."  It took a minute for the Judge to restore order to the Court because of all the laughter that ensued.

LMAO! I love that :D

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

<snip>

....and there is no reason at all to mimic RL sizes.

</snip>


No, nothing
mandates
 mimicking RL sizes.

But there could be reasons, especially now, why it could be beneficial.

The primary one would be better use of resources.  Reduce the footprint of a house and have a little more room left for landscaping for instance.  And now with Mesh objects where Land Impact is affected by size, that would be an additional reason.

That's a good point, but only to some extent. The camera position is the thing that causes largeness. Rooms need to be bigger to accomodate the camera reasonably well. That causes furniture to be bigger or it looks much too small, and that in turn causes avatars to be bigger to fit reasonably well on the furniture.

It's the default camera position that causes it. I won't say it causes the problem, because it's not a problem. It causes avatar heights to generally be greater than RL people heights, and there's nothing wrong with that. There is no reason to suppose that alien people on another planet would be the same general heights that we are. SL is effectively another planet - another world.

[...]

All of us when we started were presented with "giant" Ava's by the RL scale and I doubt very many of us thought, "OMG, I'm 8 foot tall!"

In this world, it was perfectly normal
:)
But you were relating it to that other world, weren't you
;)

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:


 

It has been already discussed earlier many times over why it is important to use
consistent
sizing of things. Where do we have a reference for consistent sizing of things? Of course it is in RL, there things are sized so that they are comfortable to use for most people. Why not use that sizing also in a virtual world? Would it not "work" or what is it? Is it because it is "Your World - Your Imagination" equals to "build to whatever sizes you wish - because this is Virtual World, it does not matter if the virtual world has non-consistently sized content"? What?

I've been around the General Discussion forum, and its predecessors, for many years, and I don't recall ever having seen such a discussion. I've seen a number of discussion about why things are bigger in SL than in RL, but none discussing the importance of consistent sizing. Probably because consistent sizing isn't important at all, so using RL sizes is irrelevant.

No it doesn't matter if SL has inconsistent sizing. In fact, it matters that it doesn't. Then those who like to be small can have small surroundings, and vice versa.

I have a feeling you're merely being obtuse, but....(all of these discussions talk about sizing, how it affects building, avatar sizes, camera angles, scale, etc...all of which are related to these kinds of discussions and why some people feel consistent sizing might actually help some of the problems we see rather than contribute to them-though they do not all exclusively discuss just those topics, as we all know, discussions change, morph, and such)...and you've participated in the discussions as well-hence why I believe you're simply playing obtuse

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/8/ac/177362/1.html

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/8/06/216697/1.html

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/8/4c/183369/1.html

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/327/f4/276596/2.html

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/8/3e/249994/1.html

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/120/c3/52642/1.html

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Avatar-sizes/m-p/1797057/highlight/true#M89258

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building-and-Texturing-Forum/A-Matter-of-Scale-How-scale-affects-content-creation-and-land/m-p/943101/highlight/true#M2125

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Dimensions-Avatars-Content-some-thoughts/m-p/2182221/highlight/true#M126221

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Your-Avatar/What-s-wrong-with-being-a-realistic-size/m-p/2004399/highlight/true#M32472

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Cut-Mesh-Prims-by-Changing-Your-Camera-Angle/m-p/2054145/highlight/true#M112554

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Build-scale/m-p/2870456/highlight/true#M29836

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Your-Avatar/How-tall-are-you/m-p/1353177/highlight/true#M14923

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building-and-Texturing-Forum/Building-to-scale/m-p/759489/highlight/true#M229

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building-and-Texturing-Forum/Scale/m-p/1315605/highlight/true#M4928

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Your-Avatar/Land-Of-The-Giants/td-p/1171749/highlight/true

I stopped searching here, because frankly one can easily find these things on their own with a VERY quick search. But...there are plenty more where this came from. One, if one chooses to read through them, and I will guess most probably don't want to, lol, easily see where scale and the request for consistent scale comes into play in sl. Whether it is by rl measurements or some sl only type measurement, it has been discussed, a LOT over the years, in numerous different forum types. It has been a topic of discussion since at least 2004, though it probably dates back before that, I just wasn't in sl until 2004. These posts I shared do not date back to 2004, but I remeber discussions with others abck then, as I wasn't super fond of sl in 2004, and that was one of the reasons, so I chatted with others about it. The general "scale" of things seemed off to me back then..and still does, though not nearly as terribly as it once was. That is not to say others' idea of the proper scaling is wrong, it is merely wrong for me, and something I do not personally like. Others may love it. That is their right. That doesn't negate the fact that it's been a topic of discussion for a very long time, however.

 

 

 

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

<snip>

....and there is no reason at all to mimic RL sizes.

</snip>


No, nothing
mandates
 mimicking RL sizes.

But there could be reasons, especially now, why it could be beneficial.

The primary one would be better use of resources.  Reduce the footprint of a house and have a little more room left for landscaping for instance.  And now with Mesh objects where Land Impact is affected by size, that would be an additional reason.

That's a good point, but only to some extent. The camera position is the thing that causes largeness. Rooms need to be bigger to accomodate the camera reasonably well. That causes furniture to be bigger or it looks much too small, and that in turn causes avatars to be bigger to fit reasonably well on the furniture.

It's the default camera position that causes it. I won't say it causes the problem, because it's not a problem. It causes avatar heights to generally be greater than RL people heights, and there's nothing wrong with that. There is no reason to suppose that alien people on another planet would be the same general heights that we are. SL is effectively another planet - another world.

[...]

All of us when we started were presented with "giant" Ava's by the RL scale and I doubt very many of us thought, "OMG, I'm 8 foot tall!"

In this world, it was perfectly normal
:)
But you were relating it to that other world, weren't you
;)

 

When it comes to the whole sizing issue, camera placement is a factor, and perhaps a very large one. But it is not the only thing that effects this.

As to "perfectly normal," when it comes to SL and all of its peculiarities, I prefer to phrase it "perfectly (ab)normal."  You know, just another average day of me having to stand on her kneecaps in order for me to kiss her.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

SL is not RL

 

Hey, again!  :smileysurprised:

We know it Phil. Everybody here knows it. :smileyvery-happy:

 

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For the people going on about avatar size, I have shapes of all sizes and heights maxed out too, tried them in these gigantic houses and the places were still huge making my height maxed avi still look like Alice in wonderland.

My regular av shape is average height, like when I'm around a dozen other avs we are all the same height, some might be a tad shorter or tad taller but on average most are the same, but no one is ever exceptionally tall with height maxed, I was at a performance and a couple with maxed height avs were there and my own one as well as everyone else there looked like kids around them.

This post says what I am trying to get accross, especially the bit about the product not saying its been designed for giant avatars is so apt, because some people are trying to say some are made for such avatars, which is not the case.

Quote

Further to my first post: Here's a picture taken in a very popular (high search-rating, at least) prefab home seller's store. I haven't edited the image other than to crop it and add the coloured bars for scale. My avatar was adjusted to be 2m tall (including hair and heels) to act as a ruler. Two metres, around six feet seven, would be exceptionally tall for any person in RL. door proportions.png The door is about four metres tall and two wide, the room about six metres tall. The door-handle falls above my eye level and is about as long as my forearm. Even an avatar of maximum height (using the normal shape editor) would look small standing against this door. There is nothing in the store's advertising or literature to suggest this home, or any of their others, was built with 'giant' avatars in mind. This house is built out of proportion to almost any avatar in SL. I've seen this kind of error in many houses around SL, and it says something that I can go to one of the busiest prefab stores on the grid and find it in the first house I look at.

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Tari Landar wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


 

It has been already discussed earlier many times over why it is important to use
consistent
sizing of things. Where do we have a reference for consistent sizing of things? Of course it is in RL, there things are sized so that they are comfortable to use for most people. Why not use that sizing also in a virtual world? Would it not "work" or what is it? Is it because it is "Your World - Your Imagination" equals to "build to whatever sizes you wish - because this is Virtual World, it does not matter if the virtual world has non-consistently sized content"? What?

I've been around the General Discussion forum, and its predecessors, for many years, and I don't recall ever having seen such a discussion. I've seen a number of discussion about why things are bigger in SL than in RL, but none discussing the importance of consistent sizing. Probably because consistent sizing isn't important at all, so using RL sizes is irrelevant.

No it doesn't matter if SL has inconsistent sizing. In fact, it matters that it doesn't. Then those who like to be small can have small surroundings, and vice versa.

I have a feeling you're merely being obtuse, but....(all of these discussions talk about sizing, how it affects building, avatar sizes, camera angles, scale, etc...all of which are related to these kinds of discussions and why some people feel consistent sizing might actually help some of the problems we see rather than contribute to them-though they do not all exclusively discuss just those topics, as we all know, discussions change, morph, and such)...and you've participated in the discussions as well-hence why I believe you're simply playing obtuse 

Nope. I'm being perfectly serious. I remember plenty of discussions about why things are big in SL, but I remember no discussion about the idea of consistent sizes; i.e. for furniture, houses, avatars, and such, but especially furniture.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

When it comes to the whole sizing issue, camera placement is a factor, and perhaps a very large one. But it is not the only thing that effects this.

Imo, the default camera position is the only factor. I know about the discrepency between prim meters and avatar meters, but I don't see how that causes things to be bigger..

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Phil read the post by Kelli May which I quoted above and see the pic in her original one, if people are making homes for giant avs then they should mention it, or cater to the majority and tell the minority giants the houses can be resized to suit them.

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

 

SL is not RL

 

Hey, again!  :smileysurprised:

We know it Phil. Everybody here knows it. :smileyvery-happy:

 

Good! I'm glad that I was able to refresh at least one person's memory about it :) (not yours)

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bebejee wrote:

For the people going on about avatar size, I have shapes of all sizes and heights maxed out too, tried them in these gigantic houses and the places were still huge making my height maxed avi still look like Alice in wonderland.

My regular av shape is average height, like when I'm around a dozen other avs we are all the same height, some might be a tad shorter or tad taller but on average most are the same, but no one is ever exceptionally tall with height maxed, I was at a performance and a couple with maxed height avs were there and my own one as well as everyone else there looked like kids around them.

This post says what I am trying to get accross,
especially the bit about the product not saying its been designed for giant avatars
is so apt, because some people are trying to say some are made for such avatars, which is not the case.

Quote

Further to my first post: Here's a picture taken in a very popular (high search-rating, at least) prefab home seller's store. I haven't edited the image other than to crop it and add the coloured bars for scale. My avatar was adjusted to be 2m tall (including hair and heels) to act as a ruler. Two metres, around six feet seven, would be exceptionally tall for any person in RL. door proportions.png The door is about four metres tall and two wide, the room about six metres tall. The door-handle falls above my eye level and is about as long as my forearm.
Even an avatar of maximum height (using the normal shape editor) would look small standing against this door. There is nothing in the store's advertising or literature to suggest this home, or any of their others, was built with 'giant' avatars in mind. This house is built out of proportion to almost any avatar in SL. I've seen this kind of error in many houses around SL,
and it says something that I can go to one of the busiest prefab stores on the grid and find it in the first house I look at.

I think we've come to understamnd what you meant, but no thanks to you. I saw that your post didn't appear to mean what people thought it meant when they replied to you about the camera position, and I asked you to explain exactly what you meant. You didn't do that, except to say that the camera position isn't the problem. Now you use someone else's post to explain what you meant. It would have been helpful if you'd explained it from the start.

I see no need for such houses to say that they are made for giant avatars. You only need to stand by one to realise that. Of course, if the house isn't on display, it would need to provide some prominent indication that it's very big, and only suitable for giants..

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Are you for real? content creators are making stuff for majority average tall, and short avs not for minority giants to put that stuff up as demo for the majority to try out and look like kids when they do.

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I'm being perfectly serious, so yes, I'm for real.

Your long sentence doesn't make any sense. Please reword it. It sounds like you are saying that content creators shouldn't put huge up for demo because average avatars will look like kids when next to them. You can't be saying that though, because it would stupid, so i really don't what you're trying to say.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Coby Foden wrote:

(Phil Deakins replied in blue):

 

Would there be any benefits if we used RL as a reference in content building? Surely there would be. There would no more guessing to what size to make a chair, a table, a kitchen sink, a cabinet, a cup, a glass, a plate, etc. You just measure the RL items and make them exactly to same size in SL, using 1 RLm = 1 SLm.

You know very well, from the thrads on that subject, that the default camera position doesn't allow it.

 

Phil you know very well that the "sacred default camera setting" (what you refuse to touch because it is the default) :smileywink: does not prevent anybody in any way from creating content in RL sizes. You can do it, and you do know it. Please stop confusing people by saying something what is not true. Thanks. :matte-motes-smile:

I know that you are referring to room sizes (somebody new here might not know it). They go: "Darn, not possible to make any object RL size here, ufff... " :smileysad:

Well, we have already agreed, in one earlier very long discussion, that for avatar comfort, for ease of movement it is a good idea to make the interiors bigger than in RL. If the avatar is average RL height, and if the camera is located away from its default "sacred" location to a much better natural view position, then the interiors need not to be hugely larger than in RL, for comfort and ease of movement. However, if the camera is kept in the default location and the avatar is very tall then huge interiors are needed.

The default camera position is no excuse for extra large content creation. We know that the camera is not locked in that position. Any content creator should be aware of it. Not knowing that it is not locked is no excuse either. Content creators should familiarize themselves with the platform well; especially those who sell content.

You claim that large interiors need large furniture because RL sized furniture would look too small. That's a funny claim. Where I live we many large malls. These malls have large interior spaces where there are seats for people to rest their feet, there are many small cafeterias in the middle of the open areas, there are snack bars. Plenty of empty space all around. The ceiling is very high. All the furniture is normal standard size, same size what people have in their homes. Not a single very large, oversized piece of furniture is seen anywhere. And nobody complains "Why the furniture is so small in this big place?" For everybody everything looks normal in the scene.

Normal size furniture works perfectly in RL in big spaces. Why do you feel that it wouldn't work in SL? To me, your feeling that way makes no sense at all. Is it just a thing what you have deeply instilled in your mind ('it does not work'), or what is it?

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