Sim Memory, Scripts, Collisions and how it works!

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

https://gyazo.com/ff986f4338483066d331685b4d405f83

That's a bit more than 400,000 Kb.

I suppose the 500 Kb limit you mentioned was a typo then. Make it 500 MB and you may well be onto something.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by ChinRey

[Klytyna]

12 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Make it 500 MB and you may well be onto something

I did mention, earlier in the thread that script memory for a full sim used to be stated as having a 300 mb limit, way back in the class 5/ class 7 server days...

But apparently, somebody with a proven posting history as a tech-illiterate, who has spoken to an LL Callcenter employee with even less knowledge of SL, is smarter than people like you and me, who have run sims, delagged sims, and been doing this for years.

Go figure...

 

[Qie Niangao]

Again, my recollection from the early days of Mono (when running out of memory was a common and crippling problem) is that it wasn't a single sim that was affected, but rather the entire host on which that sim was running. So your region could use very little script memory and still be thrown into deep time dilation when its host started swapping to serve memory demands of another sim on the host.

I don't think we were ever given enough detail about how they virtualized those hosts to know exactly how memory is (or was) allocated among the sims, but I suspect it's just one big pool, just as I suspect a sim is not pinned to a CPU.

Of course all this will shortly be (even more) academic as sims are migrated to the cloud.

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

But apparently, somebody with a proven posting history as a tech-illiterate, who has spoken to an LL Callcenter employee with even less knowledge of SL, is smarter than people like you and me, who have run sims, delagged sims, and been doing this for years.

No, I actually believe it was jsut a typo. Or maybe he thought he saw a decimal point where there wasn't any.

In any case, with that little misunderstanding cleared up, we end up with a nice little tidbit here. It seems when LL increased the memory allocation for scripts, they only went from 300 to 500. I would have expected them to go higher than that if they were going to make any changes at all.

This may explain something I mentioned in another thread (https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/32277-best-scripter-tips-and-shortcuts/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1802683) recently: the task priority system that is supposed to keep scripts from lagging down sims, don't always seem to work. A memory allocation as low as 500 MB could explain that.

Oh well, one new possible lag factor to add to the list then - or rather an old one that was suppsoed to have been fixed but wasn't.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ChinRey

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

On 10/14/2018 at 8:41 AM, ChinRey said:

No, I actually believe it was jsut a typo. Or maybe he thought he saw a decimal point where there wasn't any.

In any case, with that little misunderstanding cleared up, we end up with a nice little tidbit here. It seems when LL increased the memory allocation for scripts, they only went from 300 to 500. I would have expected them to go higher than that if they were going to make any changes at all.

This may explain something I mentioned in another thread (https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/32277-best-scripter-tips-and-shortcuts/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1802683) recently: the task priority system that is supposed to keep scripts from lagging down sims, don't always seem to work. A memory allocation as low as 500 MB could explain that.

Oh well, one new possible lag factor to add to the list then - or rather an old one that was suppsoed to have been fixed but wasn't.

i understand the confusion  i said 500k not 500kb .. 500k as in 500,000 .. the kb i thought, was impaired since its a giving that its expressed in kb

and again its just that he said he doesn't see many got over that, its still the high end of normal .. just how have less than 1ms spare script time is rather common.. but far from ideal cuzz you run the risk of 3-4 heavy avis coming in and really slowing things down.. tho i guess someone will come are fight how scripts don't cause lag.. yeah right... well iv seen in just a few months ago, doors world open slow, like painfull slow and huds would no response on time .. i am just shocked that people can't just answer the question and move on.. all i wanted to know what what the normal threshold of total sim script memory usage was.. she did say at one point 300k KB and i would say that's a good number to aim for.. im shocked that a sim EXPERT doesn't understand the need for every inch of over head you can get NO STAT IS IRRELEVANT, THEY ALL MEAN SOMETHING .. no one coming into the sim gives a 2nd thought to what resources they use.. so anything that will help.. i will seek it out and make sure i do whats in my power

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

On 10/14/2018 at 8:34 AM, Qie Niangao said:

Again, my recollection from the early days of Mono (when running out of memory was a common and crippling problem) is that it wasn't a single sim that was affected, but rather the entire host on which that sim was running. So your region could use very little script memory and still be thrown into deep time dilation when its host started swapping to serve memory demands of another sim on the host.

I don't think we were ever given enough detail about how they virtualized those hosts to know exactly how memory is (or was) allocated among the sims, but I suspect it's just one big pool, just as I suspect a sim is not pinned to a CPU.

Of course all this will shortly be (even more) academic as sims are migrated to the cloud.

the tech guy... told me they each full sim has its own memory.. BUT he also claimed memory was mesures in time and not KB for about 25 mins till i guess someone clued him in .. so who knows..i did know is no place even in his own screenshot showed the word memory measured in anything but KB, and well one time MB.. its was a bazzard convo .. felt like a thread on the forums tbh XD

Edited October 16, 2018 by tabletopfreak Toocool

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

On 10/14/2018 at 6:38 AM, Klytyna said:

I did mention, earlier in the thread that script memory for a full sim used to be stated as having a 300 mb limit, way back in the class 5/ class 7 server days...

But apparently, somebody with a proven posting history as a tech-illiterate, who has spoken to an LL Callcenter employee with even less knowledge of SL, is smarter than people like you and me, who have run sims, delagged sims, and been doing this for years.

Go figure...

 

to think ANY stat is meaningless.. how ignorant can you get .. disregard info you simply don't understand .. that's willingly ignorant .. as i said already , im aware of the list of tips you gave.. its a pretty common list among sim owners .. what i was after was information that was a little less common.. often left out of the convo, out of non understanding .. where's one of your ball gags when we need it?

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

On 11/17/2014 at 10:23 AM, Qie Niangao said:

Some difficult questions here. You ask about memory and particularly script memory, and this can be a significant problem -- but it's much less common than before, so it may be that LL has added physical memory to the sim hosts. (I've heard that they did, but I've not seen that confirmed.) The reason this was such a big deal, back when memory would routinely exhaust, was that it affected all the sims sharing host hardware (so your sim could suffer without being responsible for its own fate) and the effect was extraordinarily non-linear: performance didn't just degrade, it fell off a cliff.

Anyway, for whatever reason, memory just isn't the problem it used to be, so I wouldn't spend much time trying to optimize it for your sim, nor hassling visiting avatars about the memory consumption of their attached scripts (the measurement of which is insanely inaccurate anyway).

Collisions are just events in the sim's physics processing, occasioned by something bumping into something else. For example, an avatar falling from the sky and landing on the ground creates a (particular kind of) collision. This is almost never anything to worry about except in extraordinarily crowded sims (e.g., SL Birthday regions) or those with complex physical scripts (usually vehicles) -- or when attacked by a physics griefer. In fact, the SL physics engine is so robust these days that it takes serious trickery to trigger physics-based lag (which raises the challenge for the griefers, but not insurmountably). Historically, though, collisions were a major problem on even moderately busy sims.

Once an avatar has arrived in a sim, there's very little it can do to affect lag one way or another until it leaves the sim. It's very slightly better if they sit down on something non-physical (regular furniture, poseballs, etc.) because then they won't cause any collisions at all. And they might interact with some script that does something laggy to the sim (rez a ton of physics-enabled prims or something evil), but generally, once they've arrived, they've already done more lag damage than anything they'll do until they leave -- which event also incurs a lot of sim processing.

(So if you think about that, you'll see that the very worst thing you can do is to teleport out an avatar for exceeding some lag measurement threshold without also banning them for a few minutes and telling them in detail what they need to fix before trying to teleport in again. Otherwise you're both annoying the visitor and setting up your region for repeat rounds of expensive rezzing-in and rezzing-out.)

One reason that the rezzing-in and rezzing-out process is so apt to lag a sim is that during those intervals, scripts are being loaded into memory and slotted into the scheduler to run, so this is one time that having a lot of scripts actually matters. (This is also why temp-rezzing scripted objects is a Very Bad Idea.) Otherwise, scripts mostly just split up the scraps of idle time after all other processing is complete, so steady-state they typically have no affect on sim lag at all.

on that note, about tp'ing.. wouldn't it be nice the person doing the tp had to just wait 10-15 secs?? 20 secs?? vs rubber banding everyone else in the sim??..make them wait a bit XD and load them in slower IF that means a better experience for the rest of the sim at least .. when its high time it can get rather annoying.. and for get when your building or modding.. XD rubbing banding textures and what not.. and i hear man about how its not a huge deal.. thats why its the last piece iv zero'd in on.. of course i started with texture size  amount of visible textures and script cpu run time .. making sure anything that could be set to none in physics was , and convex hulls where applicable 

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

i understand the confusion  i said 500k not 500kb .. 500k as in 500,000 .. the kb i thought, was impaired since its a giving that its expressed in kb

Oh, I see. You better not make that kind of terminology a habit or you'll end up with and endless string of misunderstandings. k is a very common abbreviation for kilobytes.

Anyway, with that misunderstanding cleared up, we ended up with a quite useful conclusion and all is well that ends well.

Edited October 17, 2018 by ChinRey

[Klytyna]

12 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

how ignorant can you get ..

Let's find out...

12 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

on that note, about tp'ing.. wouldn't it be nice the person doing the tp had to just wait 10-15 secs?? 20 secs?? vs rubber banding everyone else in the sim??..make them wait a bit XD and load them in slower IF that means a better experience for the rest of the sim at least ..

Yeah that's pretty ignorant...

It's not loading just for them that lags the sim on their arrival, it's the SERVER loading them for EVERYONE ELSE...

12 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

to think ANY stat is meaningless..

The server it's self is an actual machine, it has weight, so many pounds of metal and plastic, and silicon... Do you know that STAT? Didn't think so, can you affect it? Didn't think so, do you ignore it, I Bet you do...

Stat's you can't affect and which won't bother you can generally be ignored, you don't need to know the thicjness of the steel sheet on the hood of a car to be able to drive one...

12 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

what i was after was information that was a little less common.. often left out of the convo, out of

...being almost completely irrelevant to the subject of dealing with sim lag...

12 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

disregard info you simply don't understand ..

Oh I understand it, you just missed that fact because... You don't read well or listen, because you are...

12 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

willingly ignorant ..

IF you had actually read other peoples posts, and thought about them you might have remembered that I said...

On 14 October 2018 at 11:38 AM, Klytyna said:

I did mention, earlier in the thread that script memory for a full sim used to be stated as having a 300 mb limit, way back in the class 5/ class 7 server days...

And earlier in the thread I did mention that this had been increased on the later class 8 servers... Chin also said...

On 14 October 2018 at 1:41 PM, ChinRey said:

LL increased the memory allocation for scripts, they only went from 300 to 500.

But you would rather listen to...

13 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

the tech guy... told me they each full sim has its own memory.. BUT he also claimed memory was mesures in time and not KB for about 25 mins till i guess someone clued him in .. so who knows..

Yeah he sounds like a really GOOD source of technical information... Some Tech-Illiterate call center operative... Copy/Pasting from a search engine results page...

13 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

i understand the confusion  i said 500k not 500kb .. 500k as in 500,000 .. the kb i thought, was impaired

The word you failed to find is "implied" not "impaired"...

And it's not 500 k or 500 kb, it's 500 MB, so you still got it wrong.

13 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

she did say at one point 300k KB

No, I said it WAS 300 MB, not KB... Go back and read it again, I said it more than once in this thread...

''...

On 14 October 2018 at 1:41 PM, ChinRey said:

No, I actually believe it was jsut a typo.

Go and read some of his other threads... It's not typos...
 

[Love Zhaoying]

14 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

impaired

Definitely. 

[ChinRey]

46 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Go and read some of his other threads... It's not typos...

Nawww, I don't have time. I'm just thankful you overlooked my own few hundred early and ignorant posts here.

[Klytyna]

3 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Nawww, I don't have time. I'm just thankful you overlooked my own few hundred early and ignorant posts here.

Oh we were all ignorant once... long ago...

It's more the "I chose a dumb answer to a dumb question, then asked the dumb question, and didn't LIKE the REAL answers because they weren't dumb, so I'll pout and take my ball home" thing...

Like a thread where somebody asked about those damn awful prim-2-mesh contraptions, and didn't like the 4 pages of "none of them are any damn good" answers they got, so they erased their question...

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

And it's not 500 k or 500 kb, it's 500 MB, so you still got it wrong.

It seems this unfortunate confusion just won't go away. The 300k was 300k KB, and one kilo-KiloByte = one MegaByte, so it wasn't "wrong" exactly, but rather it was using extremely unconventional units.

Switching the topic to per-sim memory allocations, I'm realizing that I just don't know enough about how data center hosts are virtualized. Off the top of my head, I might guess that even if each sim were pinned to a CPU and had its own memory allocation, that sim might still be delayed by memory paging of other sims on the same host. If so, keeping one sim's memory utilization below some optimal ceiling may be moot if another sim on the same host starts paging (and if that's true, allocating memory to specific sims might be counterproductive, causing them all to take a performance hit sooner than any of them would if the memory were handled as a common pool).

[Klytyna]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Switching the topic to per-sim memory allocations, I'm realizing that I just don't know enough about how data center hosts are virtualized. Off the top of my head, I might guess that even if each sim were pinned to a CPU and had its own memory allocation, that sim might still be delayed by memory paging of other sims on the same host. If so, keeping one sim's memory utilization below some optimal ceiling may be moot if another sim on the same host starts paging (and if that's true, allocating memory to specific sims might be counterproductive, causing them all to take a performance hit sooner than any of them would if the memory were handled as a common pool).

Yeah, well back in those class-5/early class 7 days when it was 300 mb.. and 4 cores to a server, it's quite possible that heavy usage on one region could and would affect the other 3 via hard disk paging swaps or even just through dynamic virtual memory allocation.

Depends what OS they were using on the servers...

Microbloat Windon't OS's have always had weird 'virtual memory' settings by default, I used to always override them on my machines, and set a fixed amount right from the get go.

The problem was that by default they would start with hardly any virtual memory, and 'dynamically' increase it as demand went up, but the increase was a laggy process, and you'd find some apps would crash and burn while waiting for the OS to decide there was a need for more virtual memory, 3D rendering apps were prime victims, as producing large resolution raytraced images used considerable amounts of memory and didn't like being told to wait while Windon't mucked about.

I'm sure you remember the days when sharing a server with a laggy region meant your region lagged too, you mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Now... I assume things improved with the class 8's and later, more actual RAM on the server machines, better memory allocation between the region simulator tasks, etc., as "shared server lag" seems less common than it once was.

...

Cloud... Cloud worries me...

How will performance be affected when the machine running the simulator for your region is owned by a subcontractor, who leases it to the cloud company who lease it to the Lab, and is shared with an accounts database from Peru, a hacker website from Russia, and a Californian Porno Webcam site, all running on a machine in a Yurt, 23 miles north west of Ulan Bator, in Mongolia...

And how long will it take to get the hardware rebooted in extreme sim problem circumstances?

You talk to livechat, they talk to the ll server crew, they call the cloud company, who call the subcontractor, who call the post office in the village, who send a boy to the yurt to tell Uglutz to push the large red button on the back...

 

 

[ChinRey]

20 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

You talk to livechat, they talk to the ll server crew, they call the cloud company, who call the subcontractor, who call the post office in the village, who send a boy to the yurt to tell Uglutz to push the large red button on the back...

You forgot to mention that Uglutz is colour blind.

[Love Zhaoying]

40 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

You talk to livechat, they talk to the ll server crew, they call the cloud company, who call the subcontractor, who call the post office in the village, who send a boy to the yurt to tell Uglutz to push the large red button on the back...

 

This sounds like when Dilbert’s company subcontracted to the Elbonians (as they often do).

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

18 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Let's find out...

Yeah that's pretty ignorant...

It's not loading just for them that lags the sim on their arrival, it's the SERVER loading them for EVERYONE ELSE...

The server it's self is an actual machine, it has weight, so many pounds of metal and plastic, and silicon... Do you know that STAT? Didn't think so, can you affect it? Didn't think so, do you ignore it, I Bet you do...

Stat's you can't affect and which won't bother you can generally be ignored, you don't need to know the thicjness of the steel sheet on the hood of a car to be able to drive one...

...being almost completely irrelevant to the subject of dealing with sim lag...

Oh I understand it, you just missed that fact because... You don't read well or listen, because you are...

IF you had actually read other peoples posts, and thought about them you might have remembered that I said...

And earlier in the thread I did mention that this had been increased on the later class 8 servers... Chin also said...

But you would rather listen to...

Yeah he sounds like a really GOOD source of technical information... Some Tech-Illiterate call center operative... Copy/Pasting from a search engine results page...

The word you failed to find is "implied" not "impaired"...

And it's not 500 k or 500 kb, it's 500 MB, so you still got it wrong.

No, I said it WAS 300 MB, not KB... Go back and read it again, I said it more than once in this thread...

''...

Go and read some of his other threads... It's not typos...
 

blahahaha i would address each "point" but your clearly a drooler.. so.. ill leave you to it.. thanks tho.. the half of it i did read made me smile

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

16 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

It seems this unfortunate confusion just won't go away. The 300k was 300k KB, and one kilo-KiloByte = one MegaByte, so it wasn't "wrong" exactly, but rather it was using extremely unconventional units.

 

he gets it, and as to why i used KB, that's what the viewer calls it.. kbs... so i just assumed that what i should call it.. but yeah it could and probably should say mb.. but i guess its cuz kb is more "accurate" being its a smaller unit of measurement but yeah at a certain point it would make more sense to just say mb .. btw its nice that ONE other person here can have an intelligent conversation around here.. its a refreshing sight on the forums .. 

[tabletopfreak Toocool]

18 hours ago, Klytyna said:

 

It's not loading just for them that lags the sim on their arrival, it's the SERVER loading them for EVERYONE ELSE...

The server it's self is an actual machine, it has weight, so many pounds of metal and plastic, and silicon... Do you know that STAT? Didn't think so, can you affect it? Didn't think so, do you ignore it, I Bet you do...

 

i will clear up one thing for your pea brain, if it took you 20 secs to tp into a new sim.. then the server could work on your tp slower.. not having to jump to the task getting it all done fast and robbing the rest of the sim of basic things , like others being able to walk without rubber banding .. but im sure that went over your head too.. XD your my new fave.. truly enteriant and thinks she's right too.. its like a 3 year old having a temper tantrum .. and that's just bad forum .. you so closed minded and full of yourself .. an awe to behold !

[Klytyna]

2 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

i will clear up one thing for your pea brain

A gratuitous personal insult, in violation of Forum rules... Well done...

2 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

if it took you 20 secs to tp into a new sim.. then the server could work on your tp slower..

Congratulations, 20 second teleports, you just destroyed the ability to walk across a sim border on the Madlands...

2 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

not having to jump to the task getting it all done fast and robbing the rest of the sim of basic things , like others being able to walk without rubber banding ..

If your sim rubberbands when a person tp's in, you have bigger problems...

2 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

truly enteriant and thinks she's right too.

The word you failed to find is "entertaining"... 

I don't THINK I'm right, I know I am because I spent over a 1/4 of a century in professional corporate IT Operations and Support, telling people like you not to bring a screw driver to the office to "fix their word processor" because when they deleted the "unreadable letter word.exe" their "word processor stopped working"...

2 hours ago, tabletopfreak Toocool said:

you so closed minded and full of yourself ..

You forget I've read your threads...

The poor standard of English, the assuming you know the answer before asking the question, then whining because the experts won't agree with you...

Like I said, I spent a 1/4 of a century being paid money to tell people like you that you were wrong...

This conversation is over... Oh and I'll let this gratuitous insult go, but reply with another and...