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mikka Luik wrote:

....  ESA reports Philae has landed
:)
Yay Science!

Hear Ye !

 


Phil Deakins wrote:

 Have we got publically available pictures of it on the surface yet?

Not yet .. latest pics are from Rosetta mothership watching Philae leave for the comet.

http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2014/11/Farewell_Rosetta

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I've just seen the latest pics on the news. I find it rivetting, but now for a negative view...

I actually object to so much money being spent on things like that when we are so short of money for important things down here. It really doesn't matter what things were like when the planets were formed, or where our water came from. The Earth is here, together with water, and we have to make what we can of it, and I don't see that the thirst for such irrelevant knowledge is making the best of what we have.

Not all of it is bad, imo. Being in space is good because that's about the eventual ability to leave this planet, and some beneficial things are probably possible to do in space that aren't possible to do down here, but landing on a comet isn't among them, imo. I think it's it's a frivolous waste of money that could have been better used for the benefit of people. I don't know how much the whole project cost, but it doesn't matter if was relatively cheap. When you start counting in millions, then it's better used for the benefit of people. We have enough homeless, breadliner, and below the breadline people to take care of, and our hospitals are short of money to buy all the needed equipment, etc.

For those in the UK, I think the exactly the same about HS2 and beyond.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I've just seen the latest pics on the news. I find it rivetting, but now for a negative view...

Demmit, Phil , I warn you .. if this is heading anywhere near the word 'creator' ... :robottongue:


Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I actually object to so much money being spent on things like that when we are so short of money for important things down here. It really doesn't matter what things were like when the planets were formed, or where our water came from. The Earth is here, together with water, and we have to make what we can of it, and I don't see that the thirst for such irrelevant knowledge is making the best of what we have.

Not all of it is bad, imo. Being in space is good because that's about the eventual ability to leave this planet, and some beneficial things are probably possible to do in space that aren't possible to do down here, but landing on a comet isn't among them, imo.

I think it is not a waste of money. The answers the research will give us will hopefully affirm that what we have down here is very precious and too precious to waste. It's at least preferable to me instead of creating and stashing nukes as the only true scientific achievement humans seemed to be invested in over years passed.

Now shut up and fork over that billion EUR contribution you and others in the UK still owe to the EU, Phil .. :robottongue:

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TDD123 wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I've just seen the latest pics on the news. I find it rivetting, but now for a negative view...

Demmit, Phil , I warn you .. if this is heading anywhere near the word 'creator' ... :robottongue:

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I actually object to so much money being spent on things like that when we are so short of money for important things down here. It really doesn't matter what things were like when the planets were formed, or where our water came from. The Earth is here, together with water, and we have to make what we can of it, and I don't see that the thirst for such irrelevant knowledge is making the best of what we have.

Not all of it is bad, imo. Being in space is good because that's about the eventual ability to leave this planet, and some beneficial things are probably possible to do in space that aren't possible to do down here, but landing on a comet isn't among them, imo.

I think it is not a waste of money. The answers the research will give us will hopefully affirm that what we have down here is very precious and too precious to waste. It's at least preferable to me instead of creating and stashing nukes as the only true scientific achievement humans seemed to be invested in over years passed.

Now shut up and fork over that billion EUR contribution you and others in the UK still owe to the EU, Phil
.. :robottongue:

NEVER! (well, not for a while, anyway ;) )

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Phil Deakins wrote:


TDD123 wrote:


Now shut up and fork over that billion EUR contribution you and others in the UK still owe to the EU, Phil
.. :robottongue:


NEVER!
(well, not for a while, anyway
;)
)

We do accept pound sterling, you know .. :robothappy:

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TDD123 wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


TDD123 wrote:


Now shut up and fork over that billion EUR contribution you and others in the UK still owe to the EU, Phil
.. :robottongue:


NEVER!
(well, not for a while, anyway
;)
)

We do accept pound sterling, you know .. :robothappy:

Not from us you don't (not yet, anyway) :)

Don't forget that our leaders are so good that they negotiated a scheme whereby they could con we British public by still paying what's due but making it sound like we got a 50% discount. Clever people, our leaders lol

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I've just seen the latest pics on the news. I find it rivetting, but now for a negative view...

I actually object to so much money being spent on things like that when we are so short of money for important things down here. It really doesn't matter what things were like when the planets were formed, or where our water came from. The Earth is here, together with water, and we have to make what we can of it, and I don't see that the thirst for such irrelevant knowledge is making the best of what we have.

Did all the money spent on the project go out in the space? Of course it didn't. Hundreds of people here on earth were paid for their work on the project. So they could buy food and other things for themselves and their families. :smileyhappy:

I'm always amazed when people say why to waste money on some 'not so important' science projects. Those projects actually increase our knowledge of things; they often bring forth new inventions. Good inventions which are for the common benefit for all of us.

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I've just seen the latest pics on the news. I find it rivetting, but now for a negative view...

I actually object to so much money being spent on things like that when we are so short of money for important things down here. It really doesn't matter what things were like when the planets were formed, or where our water came from. The Earth is here, together with water, and we have to make what we can of it, and I don't see that the thirst for such irrelevant knowledge is making the best of what we have.

Did all the money spent on the project go out in the space? Of course it didn't. Hundreds of people here on earth were paid for their work on the project. So they could buy food and other things for themselves and their families. :smileyhappy:

I'm always amazed when people say why to waste money on some 'not so important' science projects. Those projects actually increase our knowledge of things; they often bring forth new inventions. Good inventions which are for the common benefit for all of us.

Exactly. Technological advancements are rarely made (excuse the pun) in a vacuum. They are built on a scaffold of other discoveries, sometimes ones which seem quite unrelated and esoteric. There's really no such thing as pure research.

Space exploration has helped drive such things as compact batteries, solar cells, ultrasound, aerogel and other 'space-age' materials, satellite navigation, camera and sensor technology, telemetry and even nutrition. In the long term it might even get us off this rock and reduce the chance of the whole race going down to an asteroid impact or supervolcano eruption.

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First congratulations to the ESU for a successful landing!  It's the first for mankind, landing on a comet.  I'm sure the knowledge gained will be well worth the money spent.

Money spent on Space Programs is well spent. In the US the space program has produced many discoveries as we figured out how to do things to send people to space, as well as the scientific knowledge that has been gained by going.  Many new industries and medical treatments have been directly spawned from the knowledge we gained as well as tens of thousands of new jobs producing these products.

The US spent only 1% of the Gross National Product on space during it's heyday.  For every $1 billion invested the space program per year the program returned from $52 billion to $153 billion per year to the US economy and that impact continues to this day.

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As you can see, this was certainly not the wrong place for this. We talk about space often. And some of us get pretty spaced out, too!

As for the money spent, Phil's point has a bit of validity (only a little bit, in my opinion, but a bit). The actual space-going hardware that was built for the project can't ever be used here on Earth or anywhere else. It's gone and it's not coming back. So the cost of the parts themselves is not recoverable. That cost is a pretty minor fraction of the total money spent, and that total money spent (as well as the money spent on the above parts) went straight into the economies of a number of countries. It helped factories. It helped accounting firms. It helped building contractors. The list goes on and on. It paid assemblers and bookkeepers and delivery drivers and machinists and engineers and stock clerks and on and on, all of whom in turn paid shops and restaurants and landlords and whatever and whomever.

As several people have pointed out, just the hard science learned to make this all work will pay dividends, now and in the future, far in excess of the money spent even if one doesn't give a hang about the theoretical aspects.

Congratulations to the ESA.

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Science is not perfect, but without it, the world would be far more imperfect ;)

We happen to love Science in this household, much of which would not exist if we didn't use programs to study space-related...Science. Generally speaking, while the money used to create things that actually go into space may seem like a waste, the money gained from the knowledge we obtain in the process is often far greater than anything most of us could imagine. Though I can understand why some might think it a waste, I think the far bigger picture is being ignored in order to find that "waste".

I have kiddos who, despite being sick, spent most of the day following this(and similar) stories as this type of thing totally fascinates them(to the point that, numerous times, they've even added their names to the ships every time they've had an opportunity since they were little, they take part in as many space-related activities as humanly possible, and it is the one subject we study every single year even though we have already covered pretty much all of it that we can possibly cover, lol). I'm grateful that they understand how the study of space can greatly benefit Earth. Although they know all about how much it costs, they often ignore the money factor and take a look at the knowledge gained factor.

I once saw a shuttle launch, by accident. My family was in florida on vacation and we just happened to get the last room available in a hotel not far from the launch site(and as close as one could get). We were out in the pool when we were asked to exit, still not understanding that there was going to be a launch. Apparently, this is protocol, lol. We stood next to our room, on the balcony, watching dolphins in the water when someone told us to look out over the water. We thought they were just talking about the dolphins-which we were video taping(being folks who live on a lake, nowhere near the ocean, it was awesome..and I was still a little kid, totally fascinated by space myself). Within a few minutes, we got to watch-again as close as possible-a shuttle take off. The feeling of watching that shuttle go up, then a few minutes later feeling that rumble, was absolutely awesome. I still have the video to this day, and my children think it is amazing, you can even see the dolphins in the video, under the rising shuttle The funny part is, we were at that hotel, because it was close to Kennedy Space Center, where we were headed the next day anyway, at my request. Disney wasn't on my list of must visit places, but KSC was :D

Knowing that the shuttle I was watching was doing far greater things than I could ever imagine, was priceless to me. It still is. The knowledge we gain from the study of space, and all it entails, should be priceless to all people. We learn so very much that is put to use every single day. In fact, we ALL use things that would not have happened, if it were not for someone's desire to study space. It may be an odd way to look at it, but, for me, the money spent is very well spent. The gains we get, including far more earnings than that which we spent, is just astounding. I can recognize that the financial costs are great, while still realizing that the cost will nearly always be returned on a very large scale. But the knowledge gained is still always my favorite part.

That, and pictures from space, because, well...O M G, beautiful :D

The again, we're a bunch of nerds in this house who enjoy things like building our own telescopes, just to take a peak at things we'll likely never see on our own :) They're super excited for the biggest launch of 2014, Alliance Delta IV, the new Orion spacecraft(if you don't alreayd know...look it up, because it is the beginning of something truly spectacular, if you're into that kind of stuff). We can't go, but we have someone taping it for them.

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just watched the special on The Science Channel after see about this all day from google's main page lol....seen the pics and been waiting for the showing on tv all week ! it was spectacular !

Love this sort of thing ! even took a pic from the internet and made a free pic in the game to hang in my new home when i get it this week ;)

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I've just seen the latest pics on the news. I find it rivetting, but now for a negative view...

I actually object to so much money being spent on things like that when we are so short of money for important things down here. It really doesn't matter what things were like when the planets were formed, or where our water came from. The Earth is here, together with water, and we have to make what we can of it, and I don't see that the thirst for such irrelevant knowledge is making the best of what we have.

Did all the money spent on the project go out in the space? Of course it didn't. Hundreds of people here on earth were paid for their work on the project. So they could buy food and other things for themselves and their families. :smileyhappy:

I'm always amazed when people say why to waste money on some 'not so important' science projects. Those projects actually increase our knowledge of things; they often bring forth new inventions. Good inventions which are for the common benefit for all of us.

I specifically did not include spending money on some types of things, including what you said - scientific developments for the benefit of people - but spending many millions landing on a comet to find out what our planet was originally made of, and gather some evidence to find out where our water came from? Sorry, but no. That's just expensive and unnecessary knowledge. Those things are interesting but not interesting enough to spend millions on, when here in the UK one family recently had to take their son abroad to get a particular cancer treatment because we don't have the equipment here, hospitals are being closed through lack of money, and local councils have been ordered to cut down on things, such as youth services, which are being reduced. Yes, all the money spent on that project did go out into space. Ok, some of it fed a few people for a while, but they would have been doing other work if they hadn't been doing that. In fact, some of them at least do have other jobs - professor of this or that at some university, etc.

I'm sorry, but, imo, it's all a total waste of money that is sorely needed elsewhere.

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Kelli May wrote:

Space exploration has helped drive such things as compact batteries, solar cells, ultrasound, aerogel and other 'space-age' materials, satellite navigation, camera and sensor technology, telemetry and even nutrition. In the long term it might even get us off this rock and reduce the chance of the whole race going down to an asteroid impact or supervolcano eruption.

I said that in my post. What I am against is wasting some money on things that are irrelevant, such as the particular project we are talking about. It will provide very expensive bits of knowledge about origins that is of no practical use to anyone, when, at the same time, we have hospitals closing, and lack of medical equipment, etc., etc.

I find it interesting and fascinating, but that's all it is.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

As you can see, this was certainly not the wrong place for this. We talk about space often. And some of us get pretty spaced out, too!

As for the money spent, Phil's point has a bit of validity (only a little bit, in my opinion, but a bit). The actual space-going hardware that was built for the project can't ever be used here on Earth or anywhere else. It's gone and it's not coming back. So the cost of the parts themselves is not recoverable. That cost is a pretty minor fraction of the total money spent, and that total money spent (as well as the money spent on the above parts) went straight into the economies of a number of countries. It helped factories. It helped accounting firms. It helped building contractors. The list goes on and on. It paid assemblers and bookkeepers and delivery drivers and machinists and engineers and stock clerks and on and on, all of whom in turn paid shops and restaurants and landlords and whatever and whomever.

As several people have pointed out, just the hard science learned to make this all work will pay dividends, now and in the future, far in excess of the money spent even if one doesn't give a hang about the theoretical aspects.

Congratulations to the ESA.

How about if that money was spent on keeping hospitals open, medical equipment that hospitals lack because of the lack of money? How about spending it on helping some homeless people? You listed a number of things where people have benefited, but much more important things have gone woefully short. Yes, people were paid for their brief bit of work on the project, but they would have been paid for their work on other things anyway. Spending large amouints of money on the thirst for knowledge that has no practical benefit for people, when so much is needed for really important things, is so wrong that I can't find suitable words for it.

Not in this case. This case is all about origins. Interesting stuff but of no benefit to anyone.

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irihapeti wrote:

i agree with everyone in this thread except Phil. for all the reasons given

just thought you would like to know (:

Would you still say the same if your young son had cancer and isn't being treated in a way that holds hope for recovery, because your heath service doesn't have the money to buy the equipment that could treat him? That's a current case over here.

Let me be very clear. I was the first to mention, in a positive way, the benefits that spending money on space has for people. I'm all for it, and I also agree with much of what people have posted. But I am dead against wasting huge amounts of money on things that are of no benefit whatsoever when there is such great need of money for really important things. This particular project has used huge amounts of money just so that a very few people can satisfy themselves that they now know what the Earth was made from, and so that they might get a clue as to where our water came from. That is just knowledge and nothing else, and is a waste of money that is sorely needed elsewhere.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Would you still say the same if your young son had cancer and isn't being treated in a way that holds hope for recovery, because your heath service doesn't have the money to buy the equipment that could treat him? That's a current case over here..

I'm not the person you quoted..but I am a parent of a child with numerous health issues, many of which we have no known cure for, no known cause of and no money for (or interest in) further research. Some of my child's issues could easily kill her(she'll remain at risk her entire life), many can harm her seriously, and a few have.  It's not just a problem there, it is a problem worldwide. Health coverage, in general, isn't enough anywhere in the world. The research done in and related to space, is not the biggest culprit when it comes to "wasting money". As it stands, the financial return from such research has actually provided not only the funding, but the knowledge needed to continue research for diagnosis, treatments, and even cures. 

I could think of a lot of ways we could waste less money, to put toward medical research and treatments. Most of the ways don't offer us the kind of returns we get from space related research. If I were to want to blame anything for the lack of medical funding, it would be the areas where the gain(if there is any at all to be measured) is far less than the expense. 

I still stand in full support, and awe, when it comes to space related research. I can't diminish that area of science down to something as simple as people wanting to know what the Earth is made from, or where our water came from. Not when there is far more involved than merely these two elements., and the knowledge that we get from such research is much more extensive than even that. Medical research has actually benefitted from space research quite a bit. In fact, medical research is an important, and ongoing, part of ISS research.

Of course it's merely only my take on what you said, and I am quite sure(or at least I hope) you don't mean them this way, but your words come across as if you're saying they are making an either or choice here. Either do space research, or save a child's life. Despite having a child that would benefit greatly, and may even get to live a longer life than is expected now, with more funding dedicated to medical research, I just can't understand blaming the space programs for the lack of proper healthcare and research. It's not that black and white.

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I am very sorry to hear about your daughter's health problems, and I wish her all the very best as she copes with it through life.

I don't mean that it's an either/or, one or the other, choice. I do recognise the benefits we have all had by space research. I was the first to mention it in this thread. I just think that some huge spends are very unnecessary and unbeneficial, and that's what I think of this particular one.

There's another one here in the UK. The government is planning on spending between 20 and 30 billion pounds sterling on a high speed rail service that will, among others, cut the travel time between London and Birmingham by something like 20 minuites. Why? Because, according to them, we are falling behind other countries in high speed rail travel. At the same time, they are closing hospitals, closing youth services so they have to be out on the streets, can't afford the equipment for health care that other countries have so patients have to go abroad for it, ordering local councils to cut their spending by a huge percentage, etc. etc. Given the choice of a high speed rail service that will cut a few minutes off the time to travel between A and B, and necessary health care, etc., I would always choose the health care.

Since the comet project is simply to gain knowledge about the origins of our planet and water, I'd always choose people over that knowledge, even though I am very interested in that knowledge. I'm pretty sure that it can't be said that this project has come up with contributions to mankind like some other space projects have. I'm all for space research etc., but not just for the sake of gaining a bit of knowledge that doesn't make a scrap of difference to anyone.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

That is just knowledge and nothing else, and is a waste of money that is sorely needed elsewhere.

This is just for general information, to have an idea about the cost of Rosetta mission.

 

On this page http://scienceogram.org/blog/2014/11/rosetta-comet-esa-lander-cost/ there is the following image about the cost of Rosetta mission:

Rosetta-mission-cost.jpg

I quote some text from the above link here:

"Like a lot of blue-skies science, it’s very hard to put a value on the mission. First, there are the immediate spin-offs like engineering know-how; then, the knowledge accrued, which could inform our understanding of our cosmic origins, amongst other things; and finally, the inspirational value of this audacious feat in which we can all share, including the next generation of scientists.

Whilst those things are hard to price precisely, in common with other blue-skies scientific projects, Rosetta is cheap. At €1.4bn, developing, building, launching and learning from the mission will cost about the same as 4.2 Airbus A380s—pretty impressive when you consider that it’s an entirely bespoke robotic spacecraft, not a production airliner. On a more everyday scale, it’s cost European citizens somewhere around twenty Euro cents per person per year since the project began in 1996."

And something else from another source:

• How many people are involved in the Rosetta programme, and how many jobs has it created?

About 2,000 people from industry, ESA and scientific institutions were involved in Rosetta's development. It is difficult to establish exactly how many new jobs were created, but Rosetta has certainly helped contribute to the development of the space sector both from the industrial and the scientific point of view.

 

• Who are the Rosetta mission contractors?

Rosetta’s industrial team involves more than 50 contractors from 14 European countries and the United States. The prime spacecraft contractor – the company leading the entire industrial team – is Astrium Germany. Major subcontractors are Astrium UK (spacecraft platform), Astrium France (spacecraft avionics) and Alenia Spazio (assembly, integration and verification).

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Thank you Coby. That pretty much confirms that my objections are very well-founded.

Their list of things that the project has/will achieve are:-

1. Engineering knowhow - like how to land a probe on a comet. Yeah, right. That'll be sooo beneficial to mankind.

2. Knowledge of cosmic origins and other things (like could our water have come from comets) That's really going to benefit mankind, isn't it.

3. The inspirational value of this audacious feat in which we can all share. Truly wonderful. That's just what mankind needs - some inspiration. It does actually. It need some inspiration to actually deal with the important things and to stop spending huge amounts of money on frivolous projects like this one.

 

1.4 billion euros might well only buy 4 aeroplanes, but at least the aeroplanes have long lives ahead of them, during which they actually perfom a useful function for people.

It may well only have cost 3.5 euros per person, but just think what that 3.5 euros per person could achieve that is truly beneficial. Things like all the needed health equipment in the hospitals, enough hospitals, etc. etc. etc.

I'm sorry, Coby, but I won't change my view of this particular project as long as we are closing hospitals because of lack of funds, turning the youth out onto the streets because of lack of funds, causing families to take their children abroad to get what could be life-saving treatmen because of lack of funds, denying people medications that work because it's too expensive to be funded, and so on, and so on. As long as we are so poor as a nation that we can't afford these things, I cannot, in all good concience, support such a huge waste of money.

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