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TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.

 

The revision of the OP title invites my response. I am accustomed to seeing posts like your and not getting 'it' since mainland has always looked perfectly fine to me in terms of open space. I did a little googling.

According to the 2010 Census, about 80% or US residents live in Urban areas. In Western Europe they classify a bit differently with Urban, Intermediate, and Rural but in any case less then 25% of the population is classified as Rural. Not sure if that included the UK. Canada's Rural population is just under 20%.

Since such a great portion of those of us who post here come from the US, Canada, or Europe it stands to reason that less than 20% of us posting here live in rural areas and for probably way more than half of us, the norm for mainland would be a cityscape because that's what we inhabit. For someone whose everyday environment is urban, highly populated, and active, I can see how Mainland SL would look empty and lifeless.

I've lived in small towns for most of my life. I don't live in any town now, I'm out in the sticks. When I travel I'm travelling through primarily open country populated by crops, cows, oak trees, vineyards, and the occasional building or small town. For me, SL Mainland looks just right.

It turns out I'm in a pretty small minority here. Oh well. :-)

 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.

 

The revision of the OP title invites my response. I am accustomed to seeing posts like your and not getting 'it' since mainland has always looked perfectly fine to me in terms of open space. I did a little googling.

According to the 2010 Census, about 80% or US residents live in Urban areas. In Western Europe they classify a bit differently with Urban, Intermediate, and Rural but in any case less then 25% of the population is classified as Rural. Not sure if that included the UK. Canada's Rural population is just under 20%.

Since such a great portion of those of us who post here come from the US, Canada, or Europe it stands to reason that less than 20% of us posting here live in rural areas and for probably way more than half of us, the norm for mainland would be a cityscape because that's what we inhabit. For someone whose everyday environment is urban, highly populated, and active, I can see how Mainland SL would look empty and lifeless.

I've lived in small towns for most of my life. I don't live in any town now, I'm out in the sticks. When I travel I'm travelling through primarily open country populated by crops, cows, oak trees, vineyards, and the occasional building or small town. For me, SL Mainland looks just right.

It turns out I'm in a pretty small minority here. Oh well. :-)

 

I think that the reason mainland looks so desolate is because it is just empty.  It wouldn't if it had some trees and landscaping.

Many people live in urban areas not by choice but because they have to.  It is where most of the jobs are, as well as public transportation and rental housing for those that can't afford to or don't want to buy a car and/or a home of their own.  A city generally has better and more convenient access to medical care for those that need it as well as other goods and services.

I'd say that many, but not all, of the RL urban dwellers coming into SL that want a dream home don't want what they have in RL.  They prefer more open space in a world where within seconds you can tp anywhere.  I live in a city but none of my homes in SL have been urban.  For me and my SL friends who are RL city dwellers, the gold standard is having your own sim if you can afford it and failing that as much open space around your home as you can afford.

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TDD123 wrote:

Thanks for the elaborate answer, Theresa. Makes a lot more sense to me now.

I've often experienced the trickyness of riding a vehicle on mainland ( hell , I was even blocked 2 weeks from SL while being ghosted after travelling the grid ) when simcrossing were more sturdy than they are now.

It just seemed today to me ( after absence of a year ) that crossing a sim had not improved at all or was worse than I remember. Many crossings fail and my vehicle get catapulted a number of sims away from me. Luckily the vehicle tells me where it ended up .. :robotindifferent:

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Basically Jeogeot is in the same position as the older "inner ring" suburbs of a major US city - people would rather live in newer areas with better facilities or older ones with more character.

 To me that would beg the question : why won't LL then give it's mainland more character instead of leaving such a big whole of waste ? If they made the mainland their own showcase ( which shouldn't be that hard regarding availiable resources from either themselves or others), general user interest would be a lot better than it is now. Why .. some of that land could even be rented / auctioned at reasonable prices  or, dare I say it, donatedfor merchants to showcase their work. It would be in LL's own interest.

Now it all just looks ... unprofessional, uninviting and boring.

The basic problem is that there's just too much Mainland right now. There are lots of nice little LL builds scattered around but much land was added in the boom period of the middle oughts that is unnecessary now, especially as there have been social changes to reduce the amount of open land needed. There are plenty of nice little Linden Lab-made places -- Barney's Bay, for instance -- but there's just too much space. Adding more shinies won't do much good because few people use the shinies that are there now.

It would probably be a better idea to wipe out some of the less-interesting continents - Jeogeot and/or the Gaetas - and consolidate. However, there are various builds everywhere and the idea of reolocating some of them will invariably cause the owners to shout, "What? Move my full-bright cubes? My precioussss full-bright cubes? BAWWWWW!!!"

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us-population-map.gif


Dillon Levenque wrote:


TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.


The revision of the OP title invites my response. I am accustomed to seeing posts like your and not getting 'it' since mainland has always looked perfectly fine to me in terms of open space. I did a little googling.

According to the 2010 Census, about 80% or US residents live in Urban areas. In Western Europe they classify a bit differently with Urban, Intermediate, and Rural but in any case less then 25% of the population is classified as Rural. Not sure if that included the UK. Canada's Rural population is just under 20%.

Since such a great portion of those of us who post here come from the US, Canada, or Europe it stands to reason that less than 20% of us posting here live in rural areas and for probably way more than half of us, the norm for mainland would be a cityscape because that's what we inhabit. For someone whose everyday environment is urban, highly populated, and active, I can see how Mainland SL would look empty and lifeless.

I've lived in small towns for most of my life. I don't live in any town now, I'm out in the sticks. When I travel I'm travelling through primarily open country populated by crops, cows, oak trees, vineyards, and the occasional building or small town. For me, SL Mainland looks just right.

It turns out I'm in a pretty small minority here. Oh well. :-)

 

I was thinking about what you said earlier also.

It would be interesting if we could do a population density map of the Main Land based on traffic.

I've spent a lot of my life both living in and travelling through the Rural areas of the U.S.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.

People have been questioning how Mainland has been managed by LL almost from Day One of SL. 

Sometimes we feel like it has been managed like an abandonned child.  But the real answer to your question is that LL is managing it the way they feel it is most profitable to them. 

(My number crunching says it is more profitable for them to do Linden Homes then to have people renting 512's or 1024's from a Mainland Land Owner.) 

We may think it would be more beneficial for them to dress up Mainland.  But that apparently is not their opinion.  It is always going to come down to return on investment.   Personally I think they should do more to beautify Mainland.  But I'm not the one crunching the numbers on this.

Personally I think LL misses the boat with Linden homes on their own little mini continents.  If they put them on some of that abandoned land that will most likely never sell, mainland would not look so desolate and it would integrate the residents into the wider SL community more than their current isolation in what many call the SLums.  If groups of homes are scattered around the mainland some residents would see larger homes and parcels used for residences, which they may not now unless they go to regions that are primarily residential, and they'd be more likely to want to upgrade.  It would save them money too not having to run as many servers.

 

I didn't save all my maths from way back when I did it a couple of years ago but it said at the time they made more money doing the Linden Homes then collecting tier from Mainland LandLords. 

I was opposed to Linden Homes from their inception for one basic reason.  When your Supplier also becomes your competitor it puts you in a precarious position.  And what I predicted would happen did happen.  Many Mainland Landlords went out of business.  My Land Lord owned five full SIMs if I recall and they were all maintained residential so were a pleasure to live on.

The problem LL would have with moving Linden Homes to Mainland would be controlling the activity on the Mainland SIMs.  Without some type of minimal zoning, the moment someone set up a club on a SIM with the homes the people living in them would be screaming bloody murder.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


 

I think that the reason mainland looks so desolate is because it is just empty.  It wouldn't if it had some trees and landscaping.

Many people live in urban areas not by choice but because they have to.  It is where most of the jobs are, as well as public transportation and rental housing for those that can't afford to or don't want to buy a car and/or a home of their own.  A city generally has better and more convenient access to medical care for those that need it as well as other goods and services.

I'd say that many, but not all, of the RL urban dwellers coming into SL that want a dream home don't want what they have in RL.  They prefer more open space in a world where within seconds you can tp anywhere.  I live in a city but none of my homes in SL have been urban.  For me and my SL friends who are RL city dwellers, the gold standard is having your own sim if you can afford it and failing that as much open space around your home as you can afford.

 

You're so right about trees and landscaping. And it would not take a whole lot of work, either. A rail fence. Hell, even a barbed wire fence.  A barn or two. Trees. Maybe a creek now and then.

As for urban areas and jobs. Sure. If you want a big-time job and a chance to really move up, an urban area is almost a requirement. There's a trade-off staying small-town even if you aren't someone who is a hot job prospect. Way less variety of choice in things to look at/taste/buy/sample. The internet makes up for that these days to some degree but the Internet is nothing like living somewhere that's a hive of multi-cultural activity like a big city, where you can be in it. I get all that. I'm willing to take less pay and live with fewer choices. 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


 

I think that the reason mainland looks so desolate is because it is just empty.  It wouldn't if it had some trees and landscaping.

Many people live in urban areas not by choice but because they have to.  It is where most of the jobs are, as well as public transportation and rental housing for those that can't afford to or don't want to buy a car and/or a home of their own.  A city generally has better and more convenient access to medical care for those that need it as well as other goods and services.

I'd say that many, but not all, of the RL urban dwellers coming into SL that want a dream home don't want what they have in RL.  They prefer more open space in a world where within seconds you can tp anywhere.  I live in a city but none of my homes in SL have been urban.  For me and my SL friends who are RL city dwellers, the gold standard is having your own sim if you can afford it and failing that as much open space around your home as you can afford.

 

You're so right about trees and landscaping. And it would not take a whole lot of work, either. A rail fence. Hell, even a barbed wire fence.  A barn or two. Trees. Maybe a creek now and then.

As for urban areas and jobs. Sure. If you want a big-time job and a chance to really move up, an urban area is almost a requirement. There's a trade-off staying small-town even if you aren't someone who is a hot job prospect. Way less variety of choice in things to look at/taste/buy/sample. The internet makes up for that these days to some degree but the Internet is nothing like living somewhere that's a hive of multi-cultural activity like a big city, where you can be
in
it. I get all that. I'm willing to take less pay and live with fewer choices. 

No barbed wire. Just try to inwind that stuff from a mower deck sometime.

I can barely keep one barn standing. Two?

A creek "now and then"? Wouldn't you rather one that stays a creek all year long?

But I'm agreed. It took me far longer to finish my outdoor work this past summer because, every time I turned around and looked into the wilderness, I lost track of time. I think I need to visit The Far Away.

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I got looking at your map and laughed at how it worked with the path of last summer's road trip. I traveled clockwise around the route shown. I did not include my starting point but if you find that backwards 'c' on the coast (Monterey Bay) you'll be close enough. I spent my first night out at the corner that's about seven o'clock on the blue line (the westernmost point on the route) and went on from there. All in the empty uncolored blocks. I can vouch for the empty, by the way. Even that tall thin pink block in Nevada, running up the eastern California border to the Oregon line, would be colorless since for the most part it's truly empty (the rl site of Burning Man is in there, to give you an idea) but it gets population color because it includes Reno/Sparks in its southernmost section.

Perrie Map Crop.jpg

 

I apologize for the crummy pathing; I was in a hurry so I just used Paint and didn't try to make it better.

 

 

 edited to explain the route more clearly (I hope) and then edited later to enlarge the pic and correct my misunderstanding of what the little hand points to and when.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.

People have been questioning how Mainland has been managed by LL almost from Day One of SL. 

Sometimes we feel like it has been managed like an abandonned child.  But the real answer to your question is that LL is managing it the way they feel it is most profitable to them. 

(My number crunching says it is more profitable for them to do Linden Homes then to have people renting 512's or 1024's from a Mainland Land Owner.) 

We may think it would be more beneficial for them to dress up Mainland.  But that apparently is not their opinion.  It is always going to come down to return on investment.   Personally I think they should do more to beautify Mainland.  But I'm not the one crunching the numbers on this.

Personally I think LL misses the boat with Linden homes on their own little mini continents.  If they put them on some of that abandoned land that will most likely never sell, mainland would not look so desolate and it would integrate the residents into the wider SL community more than their current isolation in what many call the SLums.  If groups of homes are scattered around the mainland some residents would see larger homes and parcels used for residences, which they may not now unless they go to regions that are primarily residential, and they'd be more likely to want to upgrade.  It would save them money too not having to run as many servers.

 

I didn't save all my maths from way back when I did it a couple of years ago but it said at the time they made more money doing the Linden Homes then collecting tier from Mainland LandLords. 

I was opposed to Linden Homes from their inception for one basic reason.  When your Supplier also becomes your competitor it puts you in a precarious position.  And what I predicted would happen did happen.  Many Mainland Landlords went out of business.  My Land Lord owned five full SIMs if I recall and they were all maintained residential so were a pleasure to live on.

The problem LL would have with moving Linden Homes to Mainland would be controlling the activity on the Mainland SIMs.  Without some type of minimal zoning, the moment someone set up a club on a SIM with the homes the people living in them would be screaming bloody murder.

The math for selling premium memberships with a free house vs having all those people not being premium and just renting does favor the Linden home on the surface.  But it turned out a high percent of people never move on to something better and as you said a lot of landlords both on the mainland and estates went out of business and abandoned their regions or parcels. 

I too have always been opposed to them for the same reason you have.  I was in a meeting with Lindens for Official SL Solution Providers and Developers before they announced them publicly and when they told us what they planned and their reasoning, I asked them if there would be a time limit on how long someone could live in one.  They were so sure that they were right though, they didn't feel that a time limit was necessary. 

It may have worked if they had put a time limit on it and it would have been easier to discontinue if it didn't.  Once you have had a home in SL, for a lot of people being homeless is the pits.  But once you let the horse out of the barn there is no use in closing the barn door.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.

People have been questioning how Mainland has been managed by LL almost from Day One of SL. 

Sometimes we feel like it has been managed like an abandonned child.  But the real answer to your question is that LL is managing it the way they feel it is most profitable to them. 

(My number crunching says it is more profitable for them to do Linden Homes then to have people renting 512's or 1024's from a Mainland Land Owner.) 

We may think it would be more beneficial for them to dress up Mainland.  But that apparently is not their opinion.  It is always going to come down to return on investment.   Personally I think they should do more to beautify Mainland.  But I'm not the one crunching the numbers on this.

Personally I think LL misses the boat with Linden homes on their own little mini continents.  If they put them on some of that abandoned land that will most likely never sell, mainland would not look so desolate and it would integrate the residents into the wider SL community more than their current isolation in what many call the SLums.  If groups of homes are scattered around the mainland some residents would see larger homes and parcels used for residences, which they may not now unless they go to regions that are primarily residential, and they'd be more likely to want to upgrade.  It would save them money too not having to run as many servers.

 

I didn't save all my maths from way back when I did it a couple of years ago but it said at the time they made more money doing the Linden Homes then collecting tier from Mainland LandLords. 

I was opposed to Linden Homes from their inception for one basic reason.  When your Supplier also becomes your competitor it puts you in a precarious position.  And what I predicted would happen did happen.  Many Mainland Landlords went out of business.  My Land Lord owned five full SIMs if I recall and they were all maintained residential so were a pleasure to live on.

The problem LL would have with moving Linden Homes to Mainland would be controlling the activity on the Mainland SIMs.  Without some type of minimal zoning, the moment someone set up a club on a SIM with the homes the people living in them would be screaming bloody murder.

The math for selling premium memberships with a free house vs having all those people not being premium and just renting does favor the Linden home on the surface.  But it turned out a high percent of people never move on to something better and as you said a lot of landlords both on the mainland and estates went out of business and abandoned their regions or parcels. 

I too have always been opposed to them for the same reason you have.  I was in a meeting with Lindens for Official SL Solution Providers and Developers before they announced them publicly and when they told us what they planned and their reasoning, I asked them if there would be a time limit on how long someone could live in one.  They were so sure that they were right though, they didn't feel that a time limit was necessary. 

It may have worked if they had put a time limit on it and it would have been easier to discontinue if it didn't.  Once you have had a home in SL, for a lot of people being homeless is the pits.  But once you let the horse out of the barn there is no use in closing the barn door.

There are some numbers that only Linden Lab may know or have.  Like how many people just keep a Linden Home on the side in addition to their main holdings.  I know a few people who just use them for private dalliances away from their main Home.  So things like this may be skewing our impressions.  But I don't think by much.

The big problem as I saw it with the Limited Time issue was advertising.  To advertise "you get a free home for the first whatever number of months automatically raises in peoples minds, "So this is going to cost me more down the road."  And with out a clear understanding of just how much more it could have negatively impacted the new sign ups they were trying to attract.

At one time Phillip had said "I'm building a world."  Somewhere along the line it appears that vision got lost.

On a side note, I just came across this old RL/SL comparison I had never seen before.  KInd of interesting.  LINK

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


TDD123 wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

I too am amazed at how empty Mainland seems, but specifically because I know that there is quite an active market in Mainland parcels.

That's what occurred to me as well last night when a friend was trying to relocate ( aside my attempt to just cruise about on mainland unhindered ) : much of mainland is confiscated by LL and not open for auction ( abandoned lands ), while prices for land are high and never negotiable. There's indeed something peculiar about this much land being availiable when people still pay far too much for mere space.

Look at the World Map. See all those red hearts? Entire regions owned by the same company who stack up a series of region-sized skyboxes which they rent out. There's apparently at least one more company doing the same thing.  Linden Lab has a single landowner per region to deal with rather than a handful of
drama queens
Premium landowners. It makes much more sense financially to let a non-prime region empty out and then sell it to a landowner like this than to keep it parcelled out.

With Linden Homes and the Marketplace taking away the need for cheap land the Mainland is largely of interest to those who operate vehicles, like interesting terrain or want to live in a historical area.

 

 

Or... quite the opposite.

Large landholders gain bargaining power - and can hold your company hostage.

Why do you think tier is still so high? Because if you lowered it the top 3 or 4 landowners would lose profits on their discount - and threaten LL or potentially close up. Small landowners have no individual power - and with so many iconoclastic types in SL; won't organize for collective bargaining power.

You can lose a hundred premium accounts and not care. Lose one major land baron and the board of directors might find a new CEO...

This is why LL has favored the linden home system - it encourages the revenue stream start switching away from the barons and over to lots of premiums. Marketplace serves a similar purpose - switch the revenue stream over to skimming the end result of that 5% 'gold sink' driving a greater need for users to buy $Ls

Mainland is ignored because it doesn't factor into any of the equations.

Its not held hostage by any major land baron to the same degree as estates (there are arguably two land barons in mainland that matter. The disgusting heart icons, and the one that holds most of Zindra).

LLs focuses on estates - because they are held hostage to them. And they focus on promoting linden homes because it could someday break the land baron stranglehold by switching the revenue stream over to a lot of smaller more disposable users.

The active market in mainland parcels is because there are only a few spots that have good value for uers... and we end up in bidding wars with those two land barons... who then win, sell between each other and a few smaller barons, and then abandon when they refuse to lower to a price regular users are willing to accept...

That combined with a steady stream of new owners who think they need 10x more land than they do... buy a huge amount of land for an absurd amount of real money - fail at a get rich quick scheme they read about in a 2006 article... and then cannot sell the land because they don't subdivide in small cheap lots... so instead balk when tier comes due and abandon.

There are still a LOT of suckers showing up every day in SL who read an article from almost a decade ago about getting rich overnight here... and I see them trading in lots around places I own all the time... on accounts that vanish from SL within months...

 

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TDD123 wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

  Personally I think they should do more to beautify Mainland.  But I'm not the one crunching the numbers on this.

But as you said .. profit seems to be the only focus here.

Detrimental to the experience for me without that focus, I had to say.

 

This is why I don't get the seeming absense of linden moles. If they're around, I don't see them anymore.

Moles were regular users, invited into a volunteer project to beautify mainland within a set of guidelines.

LLs could just set them lose, not pay a dime, and let mainland parcels that were owned by the lab get decorated. You can see the results of their handiwork all over SL - most dramaticly in Bay City. Some of it was messy and annoying (I gave up my first mainland plot when a mole change the height of the land around me and put in an awkward road), but most of it is very nicely done for that work that mostly avoids any prim above 10m to a side, rarely uses sculpties, and seems to have ended before mesh went live.

 

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


TDD123 wrote:

Points taken.

 

Hence I adjusted the title of the thread.

People have been questioning how Mainland has been managed by LL almost from Day One of SL.

Personally I think LL misses the boat with Linden homes on their own little mini continents.  If they put them on some of that abandoned land that will most likely never sell, mainland would not look so desolate and it would integrate the residents into the wider SL community more than their current isolation in what many call the SLums.

 

I've said that as well, so many times...

But they wanted the 'managed community' look, which I think just encourages people staying in them longer. I also think that if they'd put them on regular mainland - the people who kept there's would likely also buy up the land around it... a win win for LLs.

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

I'd say that many, but not all, of the RL urban dwellers coming into SL that want a dream home don't want what they have in RL.

Heh.

Most SLers want beaches. Which almost no one has in RL.

I live within a 10 minute walk to the Pacific Coast. I can't stand beach lots in SL.

I guess you're on to something there. :)

But I also have always lived in places where, to my mind, a small town means less than 500,000 people. And I do like urban spaces.

I'm curious to know where there are estates with as much sailing as Blake Sea, or with many many sims of roads. I might actually consider test renting on one of those to compare...

 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

It would probably be a better idea to wipe out some of the less-interesting continents - Jeogeot and/or the Gaetas - and consolidate. However, there are various builds everywhere and the idea of reolocating some of them will invariably cause the owners to shout, "What? Move my full-bright cubes? My precioussss full-bright cubes? BAWWWWW!!!"

They have done this before though. Look at Blumfield and the 3 sims around it. SHermerville. Am told this was once a many sim wide managed community. And they wiped it down to those 4 at some point in the pre-boom past.

My perfect answer would be to pick up all the LInden home sims and move them to in between some of the more populas mainland continents, connect the sea between it all, and wipe out about 10% of the sims... consolidating people "by force" like they did back during the rollout of the 'adult land' policy.

- which is another example of a LL initiated forced move. One that people screamed horribly about - for as much as a year and a half after it was over... until they figured out it had turned out for their benefit...

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

The problem LL would have with moving Linden Homes to Mainland would be controlling the activity on the Mainland SIMs.  Without some type of minimal zoning, the moment someone set up a club on a SIM with the homes the people living in them would be screaming bloody murder.

You haven't seen how badly most new SL clubs fail these days. :)

Having one show up for a neighbor can be a chance to rejoice. You know that in 1-3 months, there is going to be some very cheap land for sale on your sim. You can just hop over to that club anytime and start measuring out your cut with a footprint prim colored to the right color for that day's "best in something" event... :D

 

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


TDD123 wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

  Personally I think they should do more to beautify Mainland.  But I'm not the one crunching the numbers on this.

But as you said .. profit seems to be the only focus here.

Detrimental to the experience for me without that focus, I had to say.

 

This is why I don't get the seeming absense of linden moles. If they're around, I don't see them anymore.

Moles were regular users, invited into a volunteer project to beautify mainland within a set of guidelines.

LLs could just set them lose, not pay a dime, and let mainland parcels that were owned by the lab get decorated. You can see the results of their handiwork all over SL - most dramaticly in Bay City. Some of it was messy and annoying (I gave up my first mainland plot when a mole change the height of the land around me and put in an awkward road), but most of it is very nicely done for that work that mostly avoids any prim above 10m to a side, rarely uses sculpties, and seems to have ended before mesh went live.

 

 

Moles were not "work for free" Volunteers.

They were and are paid part time employees.  LINK and LINK

There are a lot of legal implications to this.

And just for reference, rather than starting a separate reply, Shermerville Island originally was a nine region "suburban style" cluster of SIMs.  LINK

 eta to add a link

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:



You haven't seen how badly most new SL clubs fail these days.
:)

Having one show up for a neighbor can be a chance to rejoice. You know that in 1-3 months, there is going to be some very cheap land for sale on your sim. You can just hop over to that club anytime and start measuring out your cut with a footprint prim colored to the right color for that day's "best in something" event...
:D

jejeje (:

true more times than not

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