I Will Not Be Held Hostage By Reviews

[Perrie Juran]

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entity0x wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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entity0x wrote:

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The discussion should have been about fixing the review system, or about changing the attitudes of shoppers and merchants alike, but instead you morons turned the topic into a witch hunt.

Not very mature.

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If there was anything Immature that happened here it was your responding to us as if we were engaging in a Witch Hunt.

If you think we are all hovering around salivating while we wait for someone to slip up then you, to put it as nicely as I can think of to put it, are clueless.

You were the one who CHOSE to take our responses as a Witch Hunt.  That was a CHOICE on your part.  No more, no less.

There was no Witch Hunting going on here.

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Perri, I usually dont have a beef with your comments, its only when you start being a representative using statements such as 'we this', 'we that', etc, then you get lumped in with the rest.

You didnt even need to reply or continue this thread, it could have died with my clarifying statement.

This is why I think you and the regulars enjoy all this stuff. You enjoy nitpicking and accusing people, and putting posters on the defense. That shows lack of maturity.

When you ignore the original intent of the post, and instead try to defame, disrepute etc the OP, then there is a problem.

Stop speaking for 'we', and speak for yourself.

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Granted, I really can only speak for myself. 

So I will rephrase it to say I saw no witch hunt here.

That is simply my opinion regarding what I saw posted.

The initial respose only brought to mind the rule after you brought up relisting. You introduced that into the Thread.  Having introduced it, it became open to comment. 

[Codex Alpha]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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entity0x wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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entity0x wrote:

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The discussion should have been about fixing the review system, or about changing the attitudes of shoppers and merchants alike, but instead you morons turned the topic into a witch hunt.

Not very mature.

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If there was anything Immature that happened here it was your responding to us as if we were engaging in a Witch Hunt.

If you think we are all hovering around salivating while we wait for someone to slip up then you, to put it as nicely as I can think of to put it, are clueless.

You were the one who CHOSE to take our responses as a Witch Hunt.  That was a CHOICE on your part.  No more, no less.

There was no Witch Hunting going on here.

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Perri, I usually dont have a beef with your comments, its only when you start being a representative using statements such as 'we this', 'we that', etc, then you get lumped in with the rest.

You didnt even need to reply or continue this thread, it could have died with my clarifying statement.

This is why I think you and the regulars enjoy all this stuff. You enjoy nitpicking and accusing people, and putting posters on the defense. That shows lack of maturity.

When you ignore the original intent of the post, and instead try to defame, disrepute etc the OP, then there is a problem.

Stop speaking for 'we', and speak for yourself.

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Granted, I really can only speak for myself. 

So I will rephrase it to say I saw no witch hunt here.

That is simply my opinion regarding what I saw posted.

The initial respose only brought to mind the rule after you brought up relisting. You introduced that into the Thread.  Having introduced it, it became open to comment. 

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To be fair, there was no asking for help. So then it comes across like its derailing the thread; which in all practicality it did. Then it's on.

If people really want to help, then they will give advice, then be done with it. Just re-read the thread again, and you will see the accusatory nature of  some of the comments made. They were personal and accusatory, so I'm going to fight for my position as hard as I need to.

I am an honest and helpful person, and willl never do anything on the marketplace to mislead anyone. I just went on a rant because of the way some users of Second Life were using my review section; not for honest reviews but to downgrade my product that I worked hard on, without giving me a fair attempt at fixing it.

The item in question WAS mod/copy, but the way I had linked the objects, the user would still get a copy notice, but they would have to drag it out of their inventory each time. The only way to fix it according to my knowledge was to relist the item, as i have done previously to a few others before that. Its nice to know how to update something now without having to relist anything, so i've improved. I certainly don't need a lecture about the TOS which only applies to people found doing it for nefarious reasons. This is not a court of law,  If someone thinks I broke the TOS out of ignorance or otherwise, let them file a formal report with LL, and put their reputation on the line. Otherwise, buzz off.

Yet it seems the comments were meant to find fault in me instead. It comes across as hostile. If it was helpful advice by some, it certainly didnt come across that way.

eg. "There is no excuse for not knowing how to do something" Umm hahah oh from mrs. perfect who was never a noob herself to these things right?

 

[Luna Bliss]

Entity I think that when you encounter these customers who try to manipulate you into doing what they want via a negative review it could be helpful to view them as children having a bit of a fit. This is the way people behave who don't feel they have any power...they don't have trust that reasonable people can come to a kind of compromise when there's a problem, so they start out making a threat and use the only power they know how to have at that moment.

If you get defensive in your response right off the bat (and it's very hard not to get defensive when encountering blatant manipulation) then it escalates. So rather than being concerned about their 1-star review my advice is just to ignore that and simply ask "how can I help make this purchase okay for you"?

Sometimes, if you're lucky, this will stop the escalation. It has worked for me, and was a trick I learned after allowing a couple of conflicts escalate into near insanity.

[markkemp]

I find dealing with customers in SL is a bit of an artform. I've refined my "rulebook" over time from some other businesses I have ran in SL.

One thing I have learned is never let your pride create an unecessary/disproportionate dispute with a customer.

And also that a negative situation is just an oportunity to create a positive situation.

Like for example. Recently I was contacted by a customer who had bought one of my texture packs for 99L. He complianed that he thought he was buying a different texture pack (one that cost 499L) because it was featured in a very minor way in one of the sales images. Even though 99% of the images featured the cheaper textures. It started when he wrote to me with basically a threat to leave a negative review unless I gave him the more expensive texture pack. 

Now my pride was telling me to ummmmm...........but my experience told me otherwise.

When I spoke to him it turned out he was actually very poor and couldn't afford the more expensive pack. To him 99L was a vast fortune. Maybe he had made a mistake. Or maybe he had just bought it fantasizing that the more expensive textures would be included. Either way he was just another human being on the end of a computer.

I gave him the more expensive texture pack for free. And he left a very positive review on the 99L pack he had bought. I didn't even have to ask.

So you see by turning my pride "inside-out", I turned a negative into a positive. 

I don't pretend to be some genius that always gets it right. I am definitely still making mistakes with customers. But by communicating and setting my pride to one side I find things can often go better than expected.

 

 

[Codex Alpha]

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markkemp wrote:

I find dealing with customers in SL is a bit of an artform. I've refined my "rulebook" over time from some other businesses I have ran in SL.

One thing I have learned is

never let your pride create an unecessary/disproportionate dispute with a customer

.

And also that

a negative situation is just an oportunity to create a positive situation

.

Like for example. Recently I was contacted by a customer who had bought one of my texture packs for 99L. He complianed that he thought he was buying a different texture pack (one that cost 499L) because it was featured in a very minor way in one of the sales images. Even though 99% of the images featured the cheaper textures. It started when he wrote to me with basically a threat to leave a negative review unless I gave him the more expensive texture pack. 

Now my pride was telling me to ummmmm...........but my experience told me otherwise.

When I spoke to him it turned out he was actually very poor and couldn't afford the more expensive pack. To him 99L was a vast fortune. Maybe he had made a mistake. Or maybe he had just bought it fantasizing that the more expensive textures would be included. Either way he was just another human being on the end of a computer.

I gave him the more expensive texture pack for free. And he left a very positive review on the 99L pack he had bought. I didn't even have to ask.

So you see by turning my pride "inside-out", I turned a negative into a positive. 

I don't pretend to be some genius that always gets it right. I am definitely still making mistakes with customers. But by communicating and setting my pride to one side I find things can often go better than expected.

 

 

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I agree and good words. Thats why I ranted here instead. Its not about pride so much as almost publicly being held in disrepute when you havent even had the chance to make things right, then someone's holding a gun to your head over it. I thought I'd come here and post my rage rather than do it on the MP or in-game. lol

Makes me feel better Im not the only one this happens to.

 

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Luna Bliss wrote:

Entity I think that when you encounter these customers who try to manipulate you into doing what they want via a negative review it could be helpful to view them as children having a bit of a fit. This is the way people behave who don't feel they have any power...they don't have trust that reasonable people can come to a kind of compromise when there's a problem, so they start out making a threat and use the only power they know how to have at that moment.

If you get defensive in your response right off the bat (and it's very hard not to get defensive when encountering blatant manipulation) then it escalates. So rather than being concerned about their 1-star review my advice is just to ignore that and simply ask "how can I help make this purchase okay for you"?

Sometimes, if you're lucky, this will stop the escalation. It has worked for me, and was a trick I learned after allowing a couple of conflicts escalate into near insanity.

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Yes, remaining calm is always the best test. I just had it happen to me 3 times in a row and it made me boil over. Then I have a hissy fit instead  

I havent actually chewed out a customer in any way, either in-game or on a review.  I ranted here about it instead. i just didnt expect the type of responses I got is all. Thanks for the thoughts.

The newest review on a product kinda went like this "I wanted the thing for parts. I found out after, nocopy, no mod, so cant tear it into parts, im upset 2 stars" LOL. People are nuts.

I'm selling art here, not parts. I dont spend time making something cool just to have it torn into parts, or somoene giving me low rating cuz they can't do it.

 

UPDATE: Well it looks like someone has flagged multiple items on the store. Not sure why they are, as they seem to have varying and unrelated reasons as to why their listings are disabled.

One item was relisted because I didnt know how to fix the product otherwise, and the other 5 instances were updated using the "Edit Associated Object" feature after uploading improved objects with copy permissions.

If they cant be relisted, oh well. I have an unlimited pool of creative talent, its not my loss, its the marketplace's.

Live and learn. I guess the only stratedy allowed on 2nd Life MP is to delete your product forever if what you uploaded is unsatisfactory for whatever reason.

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

If there is any room for misunderstanding in a product listing, if it is not crystal clear wht the buyer will receive and will not receive, then the merchant is responsible for Honoring the deal the buyer thought he was making. I am not talking about the buyer who opts not to read the listing, but when there is reasonable room for misunderstanding by someone who does read it.

[Codex Alpha]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

If there is any room for misunderstanding in a product listing, if it is not crystal clear wht the buyer will receive and will not receive, then the merchant is responsible for Honoring the deal the buyer thought he was making. I am not talking about the buyer who opts not to read the listing, but when there is reasonable room for misunderstanding by someone who does read it.

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I'm pretty sure I am crystal clear. I have a product description, several descriptive images that reiterate the main points, a context image (how you might want to use the product in a sim/setting), and I've recently even started recording videos for the more advanced products.

Beyond that, I dont know what I need to do. If it's that litigious, it might not be the marketplace for me.

[Pamela Galli]

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entity0x wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

If there is any room for misunderstanding in a product listing, if it is not crystal clear wht the buyer will receive and will not receive, then the merchant is responsible for Honoring the deal the buyer thought he was making. I am not talking about the buyer who opts not to read the listing, but when there is reasonable room for misunderstanding by someone who does read it.

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I'm pretty sure I am crystal clear. I have a product description, several descriptive images that reiterate the main points, a context image (how you might want to use the product in a sim/setting), and I've recently even started recording videos for the more advanced products.

Beyond that, I dont know what I need to do. If it's that litigious, it might not be the marketplace for me.

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To be clear, I was responding to mark's message. 

[markkemp]

It would be almost impossible to misinterpret. But like you said, if it was possible in any way the customer might have made an honest mistake. You cannot make assumptions about what a customer does or doesn't think or do. In this case I am certain the person made an honest mistake.

As a general rule I would say 99.99999% of customers are honest, and just want what they think they paid for. That's what I mean by keeping your pride in check. :matte-motes-smile:

On a final note. I would say that no matter how technically/artistically skilled your products are. No matter how clear the marketing and description is about what you are selling. You will get negative reviews. Even 1 star reviews if you sell enough units of a product. You can only make up for that with good customer service that gets those 5 stars.

[Sassy Romano]

Let me just state also that the droids that delist items often appear to incorrectly remove items that should not be removed. One of my listings frequently gets flagged and delisted yet it is completely compliant and the listing even carries an apology from LL as to prior incorrect delisting.

 

Clearly, the delisting droids never even view the item as if they did, they would have surely read that prior apology...

 

Therefore one can only assume that single celled amoebae operate that process and I shall always consider that to be the case until sufficient evidence to the contrary.

[Pamela Galli]

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markkemp wrote:

It would be almost impossible to misinterpret. But like you said, if it was possible in any way the customer might have made an honest mistake. You cannot make assumptions about what a customer does or doesn't think or do. In this case I am certain the person made an honest mistake.

As a general rule I would say 99.99999% of customers are honest, and just want what they think they paid for. That's what I mean by keeping your pride in check. :matte-motes-smile:

On a final note. I would say that no matter how technically/artistically skilled your products are. No matter how clear the marketing and description is about what you are selling. You will get negative reviews. Even 1 star reviews if you sell enough units of a product. You can only make up for that with good customer service that gets those 5 stars.

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markkemp wrote:

It would be almost impossible to misinterpret. But like you said, if it was possible in any way the customer might have made an honest mistake. You cannot make assumptions about what a customer does or doesn't think or do. In this case I am certain the person made an honest mistake.

As a general rule

I would say 99.99999% of customers are honest

, and just want what they think they paid for. That's what I mean by keeping your pride in check. :matte-motes-smile:

On a final note. I would say that no matter how technically/artistically skilled your products are. No matter how clear the marketing and description is about what you are selling. You will get negative reviews. Even 1 star reviews if you sell enough units of a product. You can only make up for that with good customer service that gets those 5 stars.

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That would make SL far more honest than almost anyplace else in RL, according to the annual Wallet Test:

 http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2013/09/25/reader_s_digest_wallet_experiment_ranks_most_honest_cities.html

 

 

Looking around the ripped mesh on the marketplace, SL doesn't seem that dramatically more honest than anywhere else.

[markkemp]

Alas, you are possibly right. Maybe I just like to see the best in people - particularly my customers...

[Codex Alpha]

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markkemp wrote:

It would be almost impossible to misinterpret. But like you said, if it was possible in any way the customer might have made an honest mistake. You cannot make assumptions about what a customer does or doesn't think or do. In this case I am certain the person made an honest mistake.

As a general rule I would say 99.99999% of customers are honest, and just want what they think they paid for. That's what I mean by keeping your pride in check. :matte-motes-smile:

On a final note. I would say that no matter how technically/artistically skilled your products are. No matter how clear the marketing and description is about what you are selling. You will get negative reviews. Even 1 star reviews if you sell enough units of a product. You can only make up for that with good customer service that gets those 5 stars.

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I agree with you.Customers just want to feel like they're getting what they pay for.I understand that completely.

However some still use the review section to almost demand things, sometimes unfair, which was the origin of the rant,which made me just want to remove the listing and product forever from my store, because I figured the item probably wont sellafter that anyway (even if the complaint is based on the customer not reading stuff properly).

Its important to know what products sell, howmany sales vs views, etc, seeing comparable products for pricing, categorizing etc... so if your sales go down or w/e after that type of review, there is no way to prove that people ARE looking past that unfair 1-star and buying itanyway.

If the sales are at 0 or going down (especially on a new product), what is itthen? Quality,write-up? The review?

 

So as a creator I have toassume the product won't sell,andafter 3-6 months might as well remove the listing.

I learned the hard way recently that updating a optimized, improved item as a new listing will get it banned.

Yet,the oldreviews can still stay,that dont even apply tothe product anymore.

 

For example,I left a review concerned with a building opening that actually blocks entry.If the creator updates the building,how  would anyone even know itwas fixed?

Do you think customers really go through entire conversations in the review tomake a decision?

I know for myself that I dont do that, maybe I should. I see 1-star,I go to the next one with a better rating and may not even look.

[Pamela Galli]

A spurious negative review will not hurt sales and under some circumstances will help. This is why:  the buyer sees a gorgeous picture, and a star rating lower than expected. Curiosity compels him to click!  Then he reads review and seller comments, makes the purchase.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

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entity0x wrote:

.......

I know for myself that I dont do that, maybe I should. I see 1-star,I go to the next one with a better rating and may not even look.

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If I see something that I like that has a low rating, the first thing I do is read the comments. If they are silly complaints about issues totally out of the creators control (like bugs on the marketplace or the person's lack of understanding of how content works), I ignore the rating and buy it anyway. So far, I've never regretted it. Most power shoppers that I know put more weight on valid comments than ratings.

[Hypatia Meili]

The most common bad review I see is, "Item was not delivered". which is a marketplace falure and not  a reflection on the product, and is usualy not chagred for or auto refunded when the transaction fails. If for some reason the buyer is charged they need to file for a refund via LL not the seller who almost always has not gotten paid when this happens. most smiply do not relize they were not charged.

Also as far as I can tell a bad review is beter then no review it seems to still increase the items rankining, of course a good review is better. It is however hard to be sure the way the marketplace software works.

Something else I have noticed is that most people do not leave a review unless they absolutly love an item ot have a problem. which means most people do not rate items. Under the old sytem buyers use to be able to rate an item with out making a text comment and signing it, and people did do so, now that is not posble so most people do not bother. Also ther use to be a feature that would show you items that you had purchased and had not yet rated that also encoraged buyers to do so. This feature was dropped the result is that practically no one rates anything anymore.