Midnight Mania/Midnight Madness Boards are now against Skilled Gaming Policy?

[NickyMinaj1488303885]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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NickyMinaj wrote:

YES, i belive this forum was about me, i really appriciate it being started. i really need my MM board up because it brings the customers in. And im very affraid to because the LINDEN saif i have been warned! after he retuned it. i do not want my account to get banned. i filled a ticket.. right after it happened and have not heard from them. And seeing as i do not have  a paid member ship, i cannot talk directly to them

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Can you copy us the exact message you got from Linden Lab?

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[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): are the MM boards not allowed too?

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): i never knew this

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): i see that was returned

[19:38] Governance8 Linden: Any non-skilled games that require payment of any kind are a violation of the Terms of Service. Any skill-based games that cost money can only be operated by a licensed operator in a licensed region.

[daisybloomer]

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NickyMinaj wrote:

 

[19:38] Governance8 Linden: Any non-skilled games that require payment of any kind are a violation of the Terms of Service. Any skill-based games that cost money can only be operated by a licensed operator in a licensed region.

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First sentence refers to the Wagering Policy. Second sentence refers to the Skill Gaming Policy. Judging from those words LL didn't say the violation was due to the Skill Gaming Policy only. I am more inclined to lean towards the terms of the Wagering Policy as the reason. 

[Elecktra Miami]

I'm thinking too it's because of the join fee on the group, which is a shame, because I agree a join fee can help curb abuse by alts.  And most merchants with group boards set the target low enough to be reached with a little effort, such as NickyMinaj's are. Someone asked why even have boards and not just give the gifts. The reason is the boards are fun to try to lock. What's wrong with making things a little fun? Perhaps the Linden wanted to slap the board and was irritated that it was group only with a fee to join...lol.  Maybe if there's a fee to join a group, the MMs can't be group only also.  It will interesting to hear the explanation.

[Dillon Levenque]

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Pandarania wrote:

For starters before you try and make it to be something it's not.

1) I haven't been around to comment on the posts because of real life.

2) If you were in the CasperTech User Support group, you'd know that the person who had this happen was ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj). My name isn't that... so no.. it's not a case of me saying "my friend, or such and such" to cover up that it's me. I'm a compeltely different person lols.

3) Also it's not hearsay. There's a chat log & screenshot of the situation. While it wasn't involving me directly, as a store owner, I do ask out of curiosity because if these boards pose and issue, then everyone needs to be made aware.

4) Casper Warden was made aware by his own staff about the situation; and also commented on the post previously with his own bit of input. 

 

Thanks.

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Okay, thanks. There is a lot of stuff posted about here in the forum that many people suspect didn't really happen, hence the skeptism. I withdraw the questions.

[daisybloomer]

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Pandarania wrote:

3) Also it's not hearsay. There's a chat log & screenshot of the situation. While it wasn't involving me directly, as a store owner, I do ask out of curiosity because if these boards pose and issue, then everyone needs to be made aware.

4) Casper Warden was made aware by his own staff about the situation; and also commented on the post previously with his own bit of input. 

 

Thanks.

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There wouldn't be a need to involve CasperVend in this in the first place as the board in question doesn't have any pay mechanism. This wasn't an issue about the object but moreso how it was applied by the end user in what form and setting. MM boards have never had a problem whenever it was setup to be played for free without any pay elements direct or indirect.

[Perrie Juran]

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NickyMinaj wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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NickyMinaj wrote:

YES, i belive this forum was about me, i really appriciate it being started. i really need my MM board up because it brings the customers in. And im very affraid to because the LINDEN saif i have been warned! after he retuned it. i do not want my account to get banned. i filled a ticket.. right after it happened and have not heard from them. And seeing as i do not have  a paid member ship, i cannot talk directly to them

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Can you copy us the exact message you got from Linden Lab?

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[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): are the MM boards not allowed too?

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): i never knew this

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): i see that was returned

[19:38] Governance8 Linden: Any non-skilled games that require payment of any kind are a violation of the Terms of Service. Any skill-based games that cost money can only be operated by a licensed operator in a licensed region.

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I think this makes it pretty clear how the rules are being applied.

Being required to pay to join a group before some one can use the Board is being treated as a violation of the wagering policy.  It's being treated as a 'pay to play.'

And really it wouldn't matter to Linden Lab if it cost 10L to join or 10,000L.

[irihapeti]

same

i was pretty skeptical as well at the start about a actual Gov doing this. Now not

big changes coming in enforcement seems like

+

just a thought on why LL might do this enforcement-wise. If they didnt then:

if paid to join a group and could play a game then could use a bot to time limit membership

which could be as little as 1 or 2 or 3 minutes. Autoremove the player when time is up. Pay to join group to play again

If wanted to limit how many times a player could play in some longer period then after X plays add player to groupban list for Y time. After which Y time remove player from banlist so they can replay by pay the fee to join group again 

+

eta: i dont think I am the first person to think if this. Somebody else did most likely and maybe a Gov Linden went hmm! when they did

[Phil Deakins]

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NickyMinaj wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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NickyMinaj wrote:

YES, i belive this forum was about me, i really appriciate it being started. i really need my MM board up because it brings the customers in. And im very affraid to because the LINDEN saif i have been warned! after he retuned it. i do not want my account to get banned. i filled a ticket.. right after it happened and have not heard from them. And seeing as i do not have  a paid member ship, i cannot talk directly to them

---

Can you copy us the exact message you got from Linden Lab?

---

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): are the MM boards not allowed too?

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): i never knew this

[19:37] ηιɔкч ηªõкι ςяυsн (nickyminaj): i see that was returned

[19:38] Governance8 Linden: Any non-skilled games that require payment of any kind are a violation of the Terms of Service. Any skill-based games that cost money can only be operated by a licensed operator in a licensed region.

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Daisy commented in his first sentence. My comment on his second sentence is that he is absolutely wrong. As I said ealier in the thread, I would take it to the very top, and wouldn't wait very long before I did that.

[Bobbie Faulds]

I received a reply back on my support ticket about MM boards and wanting clarification. I was informed that they can't answer and that I need to email Skillgaming@Lindenlab.com for those that might like to email as well. I have sent them an email asking for clarification, as I'm sure Casper has as well.

[Casper Warden]

Regarding the phrase:

Any real-world currency or thing of value

This is not the same as

Any real-world currency, or thing of value

 

According to my legal advisors, the way this is phrased (without the comma) implies that it only means real-world things of value. However, if this policy affects you, please seek your own legal advice as mileage may vary.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Casper Warden wrote:

Regarding the phrase:

Any real-world currency or thing of value

This is not the same as

Any real-world currency, or thing of value

 

According to my legal advisors, the way this is phrased (without the comma) implies that it only means real-world things of value. However, if this policy affects you, please seek your own legal advice as mileage may vary.

 

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For lack of a comma the Kingdom was lost...........

I saw that also and it does make for an iffy reading.

[Bobbie Faulds]

Let me try this one more time for those that think that MM boards are a form of watering.

From the policy:

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

1. Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,

   OR

   Regular MM boards do not rely on chance or randome numbers. If you hit the board and the board reaches it's set goal then EVERYONE that hit the board gets the prize, not one single person. The mini-manias might violate this part however since only one person gets the prize.

2. Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events, (does not apply)
   

AND provide a payout in

1. Linden Dollars (L$) (no money changes hands with MM boards)
   

   OR

2. Any real-world currency or thing of value.

Again no currency and the gifts only have value in SL, not in RL.

Nothing here about groups costing to join. No skill involved so the Skill Gaming policy doesn't even come into play here.

Hopefully, the Lindens will see it the same way.

[Phil Deakins]

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Let me try this one more time for those that think that MM boards are a form of watering.

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Watering what? Plants? Football pitches? Metal drills? Eyes watering? I'm confused.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Let me try this one more time for those that think that MM boards are a form of watering.

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Watering what? Plants? Football pitches? Metal drills? Eyes watering? I'm confused.

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You won't be confused if you look how close, to each other, the letters 't' and 'g' are on the keyboard.  :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink:

[Phil Deakins]

They're miles apart - not even on the same row lol

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

They're miles apart - not even on the same row lol

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:smileyhappy:

[Perrie Juran]

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Let me try this one more time for those that think that MM boards are a form of watering.

From the policy:

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

1. Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,

   OR

   Regular MM boards do not rely on chance or randome numbers. If you hit the board and the board reaches it's set goal then EVERYONE that hit the board gets the prize, not one single person. The mini-manias might violate this part however since only one person gets the prize.

2. Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
   (does not apply)

AND provide a payout in

1. Linden Dollars (L$) (
   no money changes hands with MM boards)

   OR

2. Any real-world currency or thing of value.

Again no currency and the gifts only have value in SL, not in RL.

Nothing here about groups costing to join. No skill involved so the Skill Gaming policy doesn't even come into play here.

Hopefully, the Lindens will see it the same way.

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We have to remember that as the attorney from the SLBA phrased it, when it comes to SL, Linden Lab is our State. 

We have here one LL employee, Governance8 Linden, who acted in this situation.

Should Linden Lab decide that having to pay to join a group before you can use (play) the board is not allowed then that becomes our law.

In this situation Governance8 Linden is saying actually that it already is our law.

I would agree that language about the group join situation should be added either in the policy or in the FAQ.

I can see LL not wanting to allow this paid for groups because knowing people, some would try to use it as a way to get around the rules.

[Bobbie Faulds]

wagering...deifferent keybpards, differemt setups...the T is just above the G on the US standard keyboard.

http://typematrix.com/ The keyboard I use.

[Phil Deakins]

Ah but you've come up with a non-standard keyboard to make you point. The rest of us use a qwerty keyboard, which means that those 2 characters are miles apart and not even on the same row.

But just out of interest, what makes you think 'water' was a typo and not actually meant, huh?

[Phil Deakins]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Should Linden Lab decide that having to pay to join a group before you can use (play) the board is not allowed then that becomes our law..

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No it odesn't become our law. It remains what it was - a complete c o c k - up by Governance8 Linden because he was, and presumably still is, ignorant of the law layed down the the state..He should not have been allowed in the world before his training was complete.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Should Linden Lab decide that having to pay to join a group before you can use (play) the board is not allowed then that becomes our law.

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I disagree here slightly - agents operating on behalf of "the state" are human, and as such are prone to error (see also: wrongful arrests, racial profiling). Mistakes can be converted into our cultural awareness (see also: IM Disclaimers in Profiles) causing high rates of error when interpreting the Lab's intent. Mistakes don't become law unless they're allowed to settle as established precedents.

This is something I've seen myself while helping to defend a scripted L$ Transfer Tool from claims that it was against the Skill Gaming Policy. The determination by LL (no named individual was ever mentioned) was made in error, and the product went back on sale after passing compliance testing.

Should they decide that payment anywhere upstream (incl. admission fees for land, groups, purchases of products, raffle tickets, auctions) constitutes pay-to-play then this should be spelled out. If only a few types of upstream activity contitute pay-to-play then those should be made clear, also.

It's entirely probable that people will try and get around the rules - that's happened every single time LL have tried to work with gaming-for-money. This is the game they signed up for when they tried to turn this problem into policy, and it's one they need to hammer out cleanly if they want to keep creators' trust.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Ah but you've come up with a non-standard keyboard to make you point. The rest of us use a qwerty keyboard, which means that those 2 characters are miles apart and not even on the same row.

But just out of interest, what makes you think 'water' was a typo and not actually meant, huh?

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Just checking here - your definition of "miles apart" is "touching each other and  normally hit by the same finger if you're a touch typist," right?

[Phil Deakins]

Yep

[Perrie Juran]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Should Linden Lab decide that having to pay to join a group before you can use (play) the board is not allowed then that becomes our law..

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No it odesn't become our law. It remains what it was - a complete c o c k - up by Governance8 Linden because he was, and presumably still is, ignorant of the law layed down the the state..He should not have been allowed in the world before his training was complete.

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Two different things here. 

Assuming that Governance8 was wrong in the present application of the law then yes it was a fowl up.

But my phrase speaks to the future, not the present or the past.

Oh, and I notice you have a problem with the "o" and the "d" on your keyboard. 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Oh, and I notice you have a problem with the "o" and the "d" on your keyboard. 

 

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It's not a problem with the 'o' and 'd' on the keyboard. It's a problem with my brain to finger co-ordination. As in this case, I usually type all the right letters but not necessarily in the right order