A new TOS?

[Pamela Galli]

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

[cedric2011]

Same here. Thought it might be because I changed some billing info . but evidently not. If there is anything really scary, I can read about it here I guess . :matte-motes-big-grin:

[Dillon Levenque]

Yes, me too. I was signed in for a bit an hour or so ago and there was no prompt for that. Coming back just now I had to check the box.

ETA: Probably has to do with this: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Updates-to-Section-2-3-of-the-Terms-of-Service/ba-p/2777874 . I'm off to see what that's about.

[Innula Zenovka]

You all sold your souls and your firstborn to Ebbe Linden, to dispose of as he pleases.

Well, actually, not quite.   See Updates to Section 2.3 of the Terms of Service.

[sirhc DeSantis]

Yep, surprised me too (I had just seen it logging inworld but don't remember ever having to agree to any revision to get on the forum before)

And yes - did read it (well skimmed to be honest to the juicy bits)

[Dillon Levenque]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

You all sold your souls and your firstborn to Ebbe Linden, to dispose of as he pleases.

Well, actually, not quite.   See

Updates to Section 2.3 of the Terms of Service

.

---

 

Ha! Fail, then. Some vampire got my soul years ago in exchange for....some activity or something. And Ebbe will have to deal with the United States Navy regarding my firstborn.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

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 Then whatever happens you know, you agreed to it. Im not sure what was new to be honest they cahnged a word??

I read it over though.

I see a section that directs people to gaming policy also the use of cheats in any games of skills used here.. What I missed and could not find, other than violating others privcy, is where it states you can not copy paste others IMs or conversations recorded in the service. I see alot CYA for LL in it, always. But basicly, you agree if LL goes under you will get no compensation. Which isnt new..

but, wow.... Boy it sure is a pain in the butt to file a infringment against someone... No wonder so many choose to NOT create here anymore. 

 Alsways read the TOS, bcause ignorance is not bliss.

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Tarina Sewell wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

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 Then whatever happens you know, you agreed to it. Im not sure what was new to be honest, I read it over. I see a section that directs people to gaming policy also the use of cheats in any games of skills used here.. What I missed and could not find, other than violating others privcy, is where it states you can not copy paste others IMs or conversations recorded in the service. I see alot CYA for LL in it, always. But basicly, you agree if LL goes under you will get no compensation. Which isnt new.. Boy it sure is a pain in the butt to file a infringment against someone... No wonder so many choose to NOT create here anymore. 

 Alsways read the TOS, bcause ignorance is not bliss.

 

 

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The posting chats stuff is in the Community Standards.  Best I remember that is where it has always been.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Tarina Sewell wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

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 Then whatever happens you know, you agreed to it. Im not sure what was new to be honest, I read it over. I see a section that directs people to gaming policy also the use of cheats in any games of skills used here.. What I missed and could not find, other than violating others privcy, is where it states you can not copy paste others IMs or conversations recorded in the service. I see alot CYA for LL in it, always. But basicly, you agree if LL goes under you will get no compensation. Which isnt new.. Boy it sure is a pain in the butt to file a infringment against someone... No wonder so many choose to NOT create here anymore. 

 Alsways read the TOS, bcause ignorance is not bliss.

 

 

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The posting chats stuff is in the

Community Standards.

  Best I remember that is where it has always been.

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 I did not see it in TOS I read and signed, thought it was.. ok. well splains it.  Also, noted where they changed a word or two about using our content.

basically LL TOS : we own you. Don't be a douche

[Heart Brimmer]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

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Yep, I had to do the same thing. In all of the 6 years I have been on SL, I have never had to agree to a TOS BEFORE logging into the forums. And I DID read it.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

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Heart Brimmer wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

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Yep, I had to do the same thing. In all of the 6 years I have been on SL, I have never had to agree to a TOS BEFORE logging into the forums. And I DID read it.

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 what? You had to read TOS before loggin into forums??   maybe past 6 years you had agreed to it in SL and it wasnt needed.

[sirhc DeSantis]

Yep some cross checking - seems you agree to where you sign back in first after the change (inworld, forum, MP) Makes sense..well to a degree

[Drongle McMahon]

All I notice immediately in 2.3 is the insertion of something in parentheses after the selling bit. How that insertion modifies the scope in the way the blog entry indicates is entirely unclear to me. However, it certainly doesn't seem to make it any worse than it was. The acid tests will be (a) do we see Chosen Few back here? (b) Do those sites that explicitly prohibited upload of their content to SL after the August 13 changes repeal those prohibitions. I don't have a great deal of confidence in either of those outcomes, but I know nothing.

[Freya Mokusei]

At first reading this seems like good news. Essentially it's clarification, shifting the focus of LL's ownership of our content away from 'redistribution' and towards enabling the service. English-isizing ToS2.3:-

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ToS2.3 (abridged):

you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the [full] right and license to [use]

(with respect to Second Life, Inworld or otherwise on the Service as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service)

, and otherwise [exploit] your User Content ([and derivatives]), for [any purpose].

You agree that the license includes the right to

copy, analyze and use

any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable

for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service

. The license granted in this Section 2.3 is referred to as the "Service Content License." 

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New content more or less in bold. The first extracted paragraph helps indicate to me that LL's rights over our content are designed to facilitate transfer of our content between Second Life servers and client computers/other services such as SLGo. It helps reinforce protection for them that they're not stealing our content when they provide it to other residents during the transmission of Second Life services (in-world, Marketplace, my.secondlife, etc.). Whether it still contains scope for 'stealing our content' should be left to bigger brains than mine.

The second extract seems to be in-line with some new changes in the Skill Games Policy, where LL state they will perform inspections and compliance testing for certain SL features (such as llTransferLindenDollars). It covers them also for future needs, should they be required to closely inspect, dismantle or reverse-engineer our works to understand their conformance with law and SL policy.

I'm starting to feel like I'm sounding too optimistic. At the very least, acknowledging that this issue is big enough to warrant its own license ('Service Content License') is a step forward in terms of understanding. Please continue to interpret all of this yourselves.

[BarcodeBrian]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

The acid tests will be (a) do we see Chosen Few back here? (b) Do those sites that explicitly prohibited upload of their content to SL after the August 13 changes repeal those prohibitions.

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I was thinking specifically of these two as acid tests also.

And you did not always have to agree to ToS to sign on the forum. LL required it shortly after that change, which is why Chosen Few was able to post and acknowledge that he could not agree to it - for a short while.

[bethiebbw]

You just might have signed the document that lets Ebbe Altberg and his monkeyboys at Linden Labs empty the bank account you linked to Linden Labs.  I personally don't believe in signing ANY TOS without reading it thoroughly.

Specifically, I don't remember THIS section of the ToS from before:

"1.2 The Service exists only as long as and in the form that we may provide the Service, and all aspects of the Service, including your User Content, are subject to change or elimination.

Linden Lab has the right to change, limit access to, and/or eliminate any aspect(s), feature(s) or functionality of the Service (including your User Content) as it sees fit at any time without notice, and Linden Lab makes no commitment, express or implied, to maintain or continue, or to permit open access to, any aspect of the Service. You acknowledge that your use of the Service is subject to this risk and that you knowingly assume it and make your decisions to participate in the Service, contribute Content and spend your money accordingly.

Linden Lab may, but will not have the obligation to display, maintain, or otherwise make use of, any of your User Content, and Linden Lab may, in its sole discretion, modify, delete, or otherwise make use of User Content without notice or any liability to you or any third party. Linden Lab reserves the right to treat User Content on the Service as content stored at the direction of users for which Linden Lab will not exercise control except to block or remove content that comes to Linden Lab’s attention and is offensive, obscene, abusive, illegal or otherwise objectionable to Linden Lab, or to enforce the rights of third parties or the content restrictions set forth below (in Section 7), when notice of their violation comes to Linden Lab’s attention. Such User Content submitted by you or others need not, however, be maintained on the Service by us for any period of time and you will not have the right, once submitted, to access, archive, maintain, or otherwise use such User Content on the Service." 

In other words, we can lose or delete any Inventory or things you built over many years, or paid for with REAL MONEY, just because. 

Perhaps I just had a will to believe that LL would deal with its customers in an equitable manner and didn't see that before.  

Certainly, SecondLife needs to tell Second Lifers which legal rights they're surrendering TODAY by agreeing to updated Terms of Service.  Just recommending that Second Lifers carefully peruse a document that runs to several dozen paragraphs for revisions couched in a few of those paragraphs REEKS of deception.

It would be much more honest if Linden Labs, when promoting Second LIfe Marketplace as much as it does, would just as brazenly say out loud that nothing you buy there is guaranteed to be or remain yours to use, and that all the money Second Lifers invest in inventory is essentially flushed down the toilet whenever Linden Labs decides this is in its best interest. 

Or, as Shakespeare put it in "The Tempest,"

"The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind: We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep."

Or, more elegantly:

"When you log on and find the stuff you paid several THOUSAND Lindens on is gone entirely, you're just **bleep** out of luck.  Don't bother us, we don't care."

[bethiebbw]

You are definitely feeling over-optimistic.  Linden Labs is lulling us to sleep with nonbinding assurances in the Dashboard that, oh, they'd never dream of stealing our content (because we've already agreed it all belongs to them in order to log onto the service - an agreement reached under duress if I ever saw one).

[Perrie Juran]

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bethiebbw wrote:

You just might have signed the document that lets Ebbe Altberg and his monkeyboys at Linden Labs empty the bank account you linked to Linden Labs.  I personally don't believe in signing ANY TOS without reading it thoroughly.

Specifically, I don't remember THIS section of the ToS from before:

"

1.2 The Service exists only as long as and in the form that we may provide the Service, and all aspects of the Service, including your User Content, are subject to change or elimination.

Linden Lab has the right to change, limit access to, and/or eliminate any aspect(s), feature(s) or functionality of the Service (including your User Content) as it sees fit at any time without notice, and Linden Lab makes no commitment, express or implied, to maintain or continue, or to permit open access to, any aspect of the Service. You acknowledge that your use of the Service is subject to this risk and that you knowingly assume it and make your decisions to participate in the Service, contribute Content and spend your money accordingly.

 

Linden Lab may, but will not have the obligation to display, maintain, or otherwise make use of, any of your User Content, and Linden Lab may, in its sole discretion, modify, delete, or otherwise make use of User Content without notice or any liability to you or any third party. Linden Lab reserves the right to treat User Content on the Service as content stored at the direction of users for which Linden Lab will not exercise control except to block or remove content that comes to Linden Lab’s attention and is offensive, obscene, abusive, illegal or otherwise objectionable to Linden Lab, or to enforce the rights of third parties or the content restrictions set forth below (in Section 7), when notice of their violation comes to Linden Lab’s attention. Such User Content submitted by you or others need not, however, be maintained on the Service by us for any period of time and you will not have the right, once submitted, to access, archive, maintain, or otherwise use such User Content on the Service." 

 

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I didn't take the time to look up each phase but it used to be section 4.2

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Terms_of_Service_Archive/Through_6_May_2013#4._SECOND_LIFE_IS_A_VIRTUAL_WORLD_SERVICE

 

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bethiebbw wrote:

 

"When you log on and find the stuff you paid several THOUSAND Lindens on is gone entirely, you're just **bleep** out of luck.  Don't bother us, we don't care."

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Well, I'm not going to say that it's 'right,' but welcome to Real Life.  Go check the terms for other services as well as the fact that similar thing happen in RL.

Rent an apartment and it burns down?  I'll bet your lease said that your Land Lord is not responsible for your belongings.

So yeah, sucks to be you.

[BarcodeBrian]

You were optimistic if you ever signed on to SL in the first place. It has been loudly proclaimed to be little more than a beta test since inception, with risk of closing down without notice. This has been very well-known to anyone who did not bury their head in the ground.

I would say it is definitely an improvement and clarification over the IP rights controversy. I also believe the wording in the second paragraph of 2.3 might satisfy outside creators, since a reasonable expectation of how content would be used in SL had to exist from the start, however, this does not mean that anyone who has cut ties with SL will change their minds.

[Heart Brimmer]

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Tarina Sewell wrote:

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Heart Brimmer wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I just had to agree to a new one when I logged into the forum. (No I did not read it; if they want me to stand on my head and whistle Dixie then I will do it.)

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Yep, I had to do the same thing. In all of the 6 years I have been on SL, I have never had to agree to a TOS BEFORE logging into the forums. And I DID read it.

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 what? You had to read TOS before loggin into forums??   maybe past 6 years you had agreed to it in SL and it wasnt needed.

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I was replying to Pamela, who said she did not read it, I simply stated that "I" had read it. and you had to agree to the TOS BEFORE you could sign into the forums, I've never had to do that before only before logging into SL.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Tarina Sewell wrote:

but, wow.... Boy it sure is a pain in the butt to file a infringment against someone... No wonder so many choose to NOT create here anymore. 

 Alsways read the TOS, bcause ignorance is not bliss.

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This is why its always wise to be skeptical when someone claims they were victim of a "false" DMCA...

 

[Cathy Foil]

By having us have to agree to the new TOS here on secondlife.com instead of when we log into the Second Life Grid Linden Lab is effectively holding all our accounts hostage!

Without agreeing to the the TOS one can not access their account information to make any changes or sell off any remaining Linden Dollars or transfer an real US Dollars that may be in the account.

This is unacceptable!

The TOS is written for the use of the Second Life Grid not secondlife.com.  There is no good reason residents should have to agree to the TOS to access secondlife.com

People like Chosen Few and others who for legal reason can not agree to the TOS or simply disagree with the TOS and will not agree to the TOS can no longer even participate in the forums here.

I know there are a lot of residents who have refused to agree with the TOS ever since LL made the changes giving them full rights to everything uploaded to SL. 

I know many like Chosen Few have stuck around and continued to participate in the forums here just waiting and hoping LL will come to their senses and revert the TOS back so what we create is ours and ours alone.

Hopefully LL will see this new way of implementing the TOS and giving themselves full rights to our creations is a mistake and will correct it.

[Perrie Juran]

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Cathy Foil wrote:

<snip>

The TOS is written for the use of the Second Life Grid not secondlife.com.  

</snip>

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The TOS was written to cover all of Linden Lab's properties, not just SL.

 

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Cathy Foil wrote:

 

<snip>

There is no good reason residents should have to agree to the TOS to access secondlife.com

</snip>

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Yes there is a good reason.  You can engage in Financial transactions on it.

 

 

[Cathy Foil]

You're right Perrie.

It's a one size fits all legal document though it could be argued that it is almost exclusively worded for the Second Life Grid.

There are a bunch of things in it that are only exclusively written for the SL grid and not any other LL product.

A one size fits all legal document is a bad idea.

I am not against having a TOS for secondlife.com.

I think it is a bad idea to force residents to agree to conditions that solely apply to the SL grid in order to access secondlife.com.

This is the problem of a one size fits all legal document.

I wonder if it could be challenged on the basis that the TOS is covering multiple products.

Imagine if you were injured in an accident and had a legitimate legal case against a corporation.

Then imagine you go to rent a car and sign an agreement and in the fine print says you can not sue the rental car company or any subsidiaries and it turns out that one of the subsidiaries is the same corporation that caused the accident you were injured from.

Would that legal document hold up in court?  I don't know.  

[Thinkerer Melville]

Don't get too optimisitic-- remember that they can impose a new TOS any day and you will have to accept it to get to your products.  It can include siezure of all your property in the LL database.  See this: 

• The Catch 22 of Linden Lab's new Terms of Service

TM