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Skill Gaming Policy Thread

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Virtual Rae wrote:

sorry but,
not want to create
controversy
or
generate comments
about the case
.
LL
, if
interested
, you know
of whom I speak
.
My message
is
for the sole
purpose
of trying to
get to
LL
.

'm Standing
,
"
as a spectator
"
to
see how everything
will end
.

Understandable.

But if a first hand account was publicly viewable I would have been interested.

Sadly LL is not obligated to explain anything to any of us as far as I know.

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On reason why an operator's application could be rejected is that s/he didn't provide exactly what LL requires. Another is that the person may be in bad standing with LL for whatever historical reason(s).

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Something like that. Or maybe even having been in trouble with LL in more recent years :)

I remember some years ago, LL talked about the idea of limiting certain activities to those who were 'in good standing' with LL. I forget the details but I think it was something to do with building. It might even have been in advance of the Pathfinder tools. Anyway, the idea of limiting people according to their standing with LL is not something they haven't considered in the past, and it could be a reason why a perfectly good application might get knocked back.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Something like that. Or maybe even having been in trouble with LL in more recent years
:)

I remember some years ago, LL talked about the idea of limiting certain activities to those who were 'in good standing' with LL. I forget the details but I think it was something to do with building. It might even have been in advance of the Pathfinder tools. Anyway, the idea of limiting people according to their standing with LL is not something they haven't considered in the past, and it could be a reason why a perfectly good application might get knocked back.

Actually, quite recently, it has been the Experience Tools that the 'good standing' talk has been about.

But I don't know where that discussion got started.

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So my question is that I have personally come across sims with games still on them that are a- not approved or b-not listed as skilled gaming region. I submit an a/r report under gaming to report these regions..and go back a few days later and nothing has changed. Where is the fairness to all of those that have done everything right. LL has made these folks pay for managing and policing their sims, and the others still be allowed to go. Also..since this change was not done as a TOS change there was no major announcement..nothing on the log in screens nothing to tell folks who may be wandering on to these sims unaware and just for fun putting 10L into a machine. Will their accounts be deleted or subject to something...or will the land owner who has them out and shouldn't be held acountable. There is too much that is up in there air..or hasn't been done to inform us consumers. My other example would be there has been NO update to the list of approved operators or creators but we also can't see what has been denied..or what is even pending that was put in before the deadline. I am a very informed user but...I sure as heck don't want to be held accountable for someone elses actions. Please answer the points that I have put into this thread...and tell me when there will be an official TOS update that we will have to click on so people wont loose their accounts and have NO Clue as to why. 

 

Thank you 

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Dizzyscorpio Dragovar wrote:

So my question is that I have personally come across sims with games still on them that are a- not approved or b-not listed as skilled gaming region. I submit an a/r report under gaming to report these regions..and go back a few days later and nothing has changed. Where is the fairness to all of those that have done everything right. LL has made these folks pay for managing and policing their sims, and the others still be allowed to go. Also..since this change was not done as a TOS change there was no major announcement..nothing on the log in screens nothing to tell folks who may be wandering on to these sims unaware and just for fun putting 10L into a machine. Will their accounts be deleted or subject to something...or will the land owner who has them out and shouldn't be held acountable. There is too much that is up in there air..or hasn't been done to inform us consumers. My other example would be there has been NO update to the list of approved operators or creators but we also can't see what has been denied..or what is even pending that was put in before the deadline. I am a very informed user but...I sure as heck don't want to be held accountable for someone elses actions. Please answer the points that I have put into this thread...and tell me when there will be an official TOS update that we will have to click on so people wont loose their accounts and have NO Clue as to why. 

 

Thank you 

The TOS was updated a few weeks ago and we were required to agree. 

It did include:

3.3 Second Life Age and/or Location Verification for Moderate, Adult Only and Skill Gaming.

http://lindenlab.com/tos#tos3

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Attention Linden Labs. Please disclose ASAP If operators can operate currently on non skill game regions while going through the approval process. Linden Labs not taking action on said sims is a CLEAR message that these sims and operators CAN operate on. I won't name sims but there was at least one sim that WAS a skill game region and reverted to a regular sim fairly recently. That reversion is also a clear message that game operators can operate skill games while going through the approval process.

Most operators are working as if the policy is in effect now and must be on skill game regions and are upset and angry at other operators that are not and at Linden Labs. Clairification on this matter is critical for everyone including Linden Labs.

There has been talk of law suits, blocking of SL in certain European countries, etc.

I have been in SL since 2004 and I have to say this has to be the worse handled policy change in Second Life History. If "Governor Linden" was an actual real governor, I suspect he might be going through impeachment hearings by now. If you can't get a  handle on this mess get someone that can or just end it and get rid of all contest related content across the board so residents are left with exploring and porn.

 

 

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The reality is we are still in a read our minds policy like it has been for the last  7 years in regards to games. At this point reading and attempting to follow policy is near pointless since we don't know what it is in reality. I mean they approved Reel Wild Progresive "tournament" which you pretty much win by getting 20k in points pretty much at random. It is not always available. Blackjack is more skilled than that game. Ironically some states apparently don't allow playing against a computer opponent for example Chess or Parcheesi. One of these states are Nevada. Which of course is insane when you consider Blackjack is effectively a "scripted opponent". The dealer rules are a form of AI.

 

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

...  you pretty much win by getting 20k in points pretty much at random. It is not always available

 

... Blackjack is effectively a "scripted opponent". The dealer rules are a form of AI.

 

is not correct about Blackjack which is a game of rote. The dealer has no choices. The player has no choices either when deploy the optimal strategy. They just play by rote also. is a grinder are games of rote

+

about the overpay option

is quite clever this I think from a business pov

like put in say 20L. The game says play for double your money (40L) or quit and refund 19L. bc 1L is our operator fee

and sometimes it says play for 60L or maybe even 10,000L. Or quit and refund your 19L

on a skill game where say 1 in 3 plays (overall player mix) result in success completion then a double your money game with sometimes bonus can be pretty profitable to operate

the random element isnt in the gameplay in these types of games

what does attract players to these games is the frequency of the overpay/bonus that is offered. Less frequent means less players as people learn about other games offered by others

+

ps. edit

i just add on here. The other ones that make big payoffs. Is doubling up. And rebuys

like you put in 20L and win 40L. Can cash out or double up for the next level. 80L or nothing

with rebuys then if level out then can rebuy to stay on the level. For example

if bomb on level 2 then can rebuy to same level for another 20L. Win and get 80L for 40L paid. If get to next level then can double up and carry on. 160L or nothing. or cash 80L and start over

 

 

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Dizzyscorpio Dragovar wrote:

I am aware that operators are allowed to continue through the approval process BUT..per the skilled gaming policy that was only if apps were put in BEFORE Sept. 1. I am asking how we know who put in before and who was after. 

Ask the Operator if they did.

 

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irihapeti wrote:


Sorina Garrigus wrote:

...  you pretty much win by getting 20k in points pretty much at random. It is not always available

 

... Blackjack is effectively a "scripted opponent". The dealer rules are a form of AI.

 

is not correct about Blackjack which is a game of rote. The dealer has no choices. The player has no choices either when deploy the optimal strategy. They just play by rote also. is a grinder are games of rote

+

about the overpay option

is quite clever this I think from a business pov

like put in say 20L. The game says play for double your money (40L) or quit and refund 19L. bc 1L is our operator fee

and sometimes it says play for 60L or maybe even 10,000L. Or quit and refund your 19L

on a skill game where say 1 in 3 plays (overall player mix) result in success completion then a double your money game with sometimes bonus can be pretty profitable to operate

the random element isnt in the gameplay in these types of games

what does attract players to these games is the frequency of the overpay/bonus that is offered. Less frequent means less players as people learn about other games offered by others

+

ps. edit

i just add on here. The other ones that make big payoffs. Is doubling up. And rebuys

like you put in 20L and win 40L. Can cash out or double up for the next level. 80L or nothing

with rebuys then if level out then can rebuy to stay on the level. For example

if bomb on level 2 then can rebuy to same level for another 20L. Win and get 80L for 40L paid. If get to next level then can double up and carry on. 160L or nothing. or cash 80L and start over

 

 

If the dealer had choices it wouldn't be effectively AI, it would just be I. He is following a script/rules. Here is one  example of "program" they follow

If DEALERHAND < or =16 then hit else

     If Dealer has Soft 17 then hit

     If Dealer has 17 then Stay

End Program

 

A computer programed opponent would be the same exact thing. It is programed to respond based on conditions it encounters.

 

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Dizzyscorpio Dragovar wrote:

I am aware that operators are allowed to continue through the approval process BUT..per the skilled gaming policy that was only if apps were put in BEFORE Sept. 1. I am asking how we know who put in before and who was after. 

We don't LL does. Smart places will post a sign declaring so to avoid confusion

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Dizzyscorpio Dragovar wrote:

I am aware that operators are allowed to continue through the approval process BUT..per the skilled gaming policy that was only if apps were put in BEFORE Sept. 1. I am asking how we know who put in before and who was after. 

I understand your concern... unfortunately, anyone's but your own standing with LL is, quite frankly, none of your business.  I'm sure there will come a time when everyone is on the same page... until then, worrying about what other people are doing, does you no good whatsoever.  Considering these operators have presumably been ARed and nothing has apparently been done, the most local conclusion is that they did indeed have their application in on time and are still awaiting their being processed... and who knows how long that'll take?

...Dres

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Attention Linden Labs. Please disclose ASAP If operators can operate currently on non skill game regions while going through the approval process. Linden Labs not taking action on said sims is a CLEAR message that these sims and operators CAN operate on. I won't name sims but there was at least one sim that WAS a skill game region and reverted to a regular sim fairly recently. That reversion is also a clear message that game operators can operate skill games while going through the approval process.

Most operators are working as if the policy is in effect now and must be on skill game regions and are upset and angry at other operators that are not and at Linden Labs. Clairification on this matter is critical for everyone including Linden Labs.

There has been talk of law suits, blocking of SL in certain European countries, etc.


Linden Lab wrote:

If you’ve read the
,
s and
documentation on our revised
and have comments and/or questions, you can post them here. We’ll be keeping an eye on this forum thread regarding Skill Gaming.

 

Just on a whim I took 30 minutes out of the early morning hours and did a simple search and found 9 sims that were available for me to have access to (IE: non-gaming region sims) that are operating games that are NOT on the approved list and some of these sims had as many as 45 people playing on them . . . AT 6:30 IN THE MORNING SLT.  

I know that these gaming regions are outside of the gaming policy -"skilled games" in a non-skilled gaming region- because LL has somehow botched something up in their checks/balances coding that disallows me to enter skilled gaming regions even though I've been aged verified for years, and live in Australia.  I submitted a ticket on this that's been kicked back at me 3 times now after having been moved to a totally incorrect area of their support department and being asked to do things that I've already stated quite clearly have been completed (double checking and re-entering my payment details).

 

It seems to me that, through inaction this policy is doing harm to the operators that are acting within the new LL policy whilst ignoring the operators that are operating OUTSIDE of this new policy.  Did you not prepare for this policy implementation . . . WHAT did you do in the months 'reprieve' given from August 1 to Aug 29 when you put this mess into effect JUST BEFORE A LONG WEEKEND FOR A HELL OF ALOT OF YOUR USERBASE?  Was there no thought to the possibility that you would have people NOT doing the right thing and basically profiteering  over those who actually do stay within the ever changing rules you are setting . . .

All I can say is fix this mess before you lose more of your player base to other games like SL or more scary than that . . . they might actually leave sl for . . . . . . . . . . . RL?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!:matte-motes-zipped:

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I'm surprised that people seem so surprised that LL botched the implementation of this policy.  Botching implementations is one of LL's most consistent of abilities.  In the almost seven years I've been dealing with them, only once have I seen LL implement something competently from the outset.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I'm surprised that people seem so surprised that LL botched the implementation of this policy.  Botching implementations is one of LL's most consistent of abilities.  In the almost seven years I've been dealing with them, only once have I seen LL implement something competently from the outset.

...Dres

I seen botching before but this time it has pretty much been just about every step of the way. I have never seen LL act in such a extreme keystone cops kind of way. But your right because we have had how many years of chat lag and they take their time to add new things to go wrong instead of fixing the antiquated problems?

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:



If the dealer had choices it wouldn't be effectively AI, it would just be I. He is following a script/rules. Here is one  example of "program" they follow

If DEALERHAND < or =16 then hit else

     If Dealer has Soft 17 then hit

     If Dealer has 17 then Stay

End Program

 

A computer programed opponent would be the same exact thing. It is programed to respond based on conditions it encounters.

 

is nothing intelligent about these kinds of programs as wrote. Is no more intelligent than

print "Red" then "Green" then "Blue"

if was writing a program that exhibit intelligence using your example then

If DEALERHAND < or =16 then

 ReviewThisPlayersPreviousActionsAndHitStandAccordingly

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I've had enough of this thread.

The dealer in a game of Blackjack played by the rules followed in the US always wins in the long run. Guaranteed. The players that actually win at Blackjack (as opposed to claiming they win, mostly by ignoring the fact they've lost sixteen bundles over the last month in favor of admiring the bundle they won today) do so by various strategies almost all of which are based on counting cards. Most casinos watch for those people and toss them as fast as they can.

Anyone who enters a gambling casino* expecting to win is an idiot. Every casino owner knows this. You make your money taking advantage of the stupidity of other people. I hope you're proud of yourself.

*I will make an exception to this. In California, where I live, there are what are called 'card rooms' legal and licensed in some places. They sometimes get called casinos, but in most jurisdicitons the only form of gambling allowed is card games in which players compete against each other  Games like Poker, for instance. The house takes a cut from every pot in exchange for providing the place and maybe a dealer. Nothing wrong with that.

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i have a inworld friend who plays (now used to play) NoDevil

i ask him why. He says is just something to do when he is not making and putting stuff in his shops

i ask him how is that working out. He said pretty good. Sometimes I win 20,000L

I go: annnnd??

and he laugh and go: and sometimes I lose 30,000L

and I go: how often do that happen ??

and he goes: more times than I win 20,000

I tell him he need get a life. He laugh even more and say true

I get a IM from him yesterday. He wants to know where he can get belly dance animations

I go" waaah!! what for ??

and he goes: I got a girlfriend

so I give him a list of places they can go and get. He was pretty happy about that. I never met her yet but am pretty sure she be pretty happy about it as well. Him getting a life (:

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He can get into a lot more trouble watching a belly dancer than he can playing a casino game. But chances are he'll have way more fun with that. :-) 

Good on 'im. (I know, I was speaking Strine but at least that's in your neighborhood)

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

 speaking Strine

is that like when you stick your head in a bucket of seawater and make gurgle noises ?? dunno how true that is tho. Sounds true. But is just what I heard. Or maybe I just imagined somebody told me. Is hard to tell sometimes

jejejjejeje (:

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my ? is why is it called skill gaming they r  games of chance players do not determin if there will be a win or not its game room operators that set profit margin last time i was told its buyer beware but iam not buying anything playing what  most beleave is a game of skill like player has a chance to win every game that bs .im sure people that r new to sl asume someone like ll monitores to make sure  these placeses r on the up and up like most bissness look out for cumstomers.

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