Skill Gaming Policy Thread

[Phil Deakins]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

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Gaia Gabe wrote:

Question for LL

We are running contests that started before the new Skill gaminc policy .

Some contests will take a lot of time before payment. Prolly they will pay out after Sept.1st.

It could happen that winners that will be paid reside in one of the prohibited stated o& contries or are underage.

This will be considered a violation of Skill gaming policy ?

We can check if contesters have payment info on file but no way to check out where they lives or their age. 

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Hopefully LL will respond but my best guess would be if say its a contest board and games are removed before Sept first but leave the board it "should" be ok within their policies. But if you want to be very safe I might suggest posting a sign explaining the situation and pay out early before September 1st.

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Sorina - you who wants less chatter in this thread. Did you read the very first line of Gaia's post? It says, "Question for LL."  That means Linden Lab. It does not mean Sorina Garrigus. What earthly good is your non-expert "best guess" to Gaia?

Why don't you keep your nose out of other people's business? If there is a definitive answer stated by LL in this thread, by all means state it. If there's isn't, mind your own business. People can't run their affairs according to your non-expert best guesses, so there is no point whatsoever in you posting them. Do try to cut down on the chatter and confusion.

[Valareos]

FInally going over the legalese.. the wording IS straight foward, THink what is confusing the issue is people putting their own definition into it. Remember, this is a legal document, and logic statements such as AND or OR have very specific meanings in logic.

 

So to run down: For compliance by,,,

User:

1. Must be over 19 AND Can legally agree to the policy AND
2. live somewhere where skill gaming is legal AND
3. accessing the skill gaming from somewhere where skill gaming is legal AND
4. are legally old enough to participate in Skill Gaming where they live.

If any of the above can not be met, then you can not play Skill Games Legally (AAN Operators require ALL to be met)

Operators:

1. Must have an operator licence recieved and paid for through Linden Labs AND
2. Operate only Approved Skill Games sold by Approved Creators
3. Maintain full compliance of the Policy AND
4. Maintain Accurate information about yourself, the games you run, and where you run them

If any of the above can not be met, then you can not run skill games legally (AND operator requires ALL to be met)

Creators:

1. Must have a Creator License recieved and paid for through Linden Labs AND
2. Sell only Approved Skill Games AND
3. Maintain full compliance of the Policy AND
4. Maintain Accurate information about yourself and games you sell AND
5. Prefix all Skill Games with [slgaming] AND
6. ensure that llTransferLindenDollars is used for outgoing transactions and not llGiveMoney AND
7. Verify each purchaser is a Licensed Operator

If any of the above can not be met, then you can not sell skill games legally (AND operator requires ALL to be met)

Now, he quesiton of what is Skill Gaming is the harder one to deal with. but need to be looked at in the same legal framework, and so first off one need to know what really constituted Gambling.  According to LL Gaming Policy

A Game constituted gambling if

1. (Relies on random chance OR Real Life Sporting Events)  AND
2. (Provides a Payout in Linden $ OR anything of Value)

if a game meets any of the above numbered criteria, it is concidered gambling (OR and AND operrators combine so its 1 AND 2 have to be met to be seen as gambling, but in 1, it is one or the other to concider 1 to be true)

This is one most get into confusion with, and several examples have been given, so I will try to give a brief synapse of different ones

• Second Life Racing:  Though there is a payout for winning (a purse), it is not based on a REAL LIFE sporting event.  This means ON SIM events and sports can be participated in and betted on and not be concidered wagering under the current definition.  The rules do clarify that betting exchanges are not allowed, so any bets made would be betting done between individals, not between one person and an organization. I wouldnt risk pushing the rules though, stick to racing your own cars and horses and getting a purse for winning and rules say you should be fine.
  
  
• Dice, Card and Casino Games (Includes Board Games, Casino Games, Slot Machines): If any of these games offer a payout in lindens or ANYTHING of value, and uses a random number generator to determine outcome, it may be concidered wagering, EVEN IF THERE IS NO PAYMENT ACCEPTED.  However, Linden Labs has stated that if the the game is truly free and does not take in any concideration, then it may be allowed.  On the same line, that if the "payout" is a novelty item or something that can not be readily converted to lindens, then it also may be allowed.  This statement here means that If the game accepts nothing of value, and pays out Lindens, or accepts Lindens but pays nothing of value, then it may be allowed, even though it meets the technical definition of wagering. 

From there, Now we go into what is defined as Skill Game.

According to Linden Labs a Skill Game

1. Is implemented through an Inworld Object  AND
2. Outcome is determined by Skill, and not using chance in whole or in part. AND
3. Requires or Permits Lindens to Play AND
4. Provides Payout in Lindens AND
5. is legally authorized nu US and International Law

They further go on to clarify point 3 by saying that games that Residents do not pay to play are not concidered under the Skill Gaming Policy

What is interesting to note is that the definition of a skill game has not changed... Most "Skill Games" Out there claim to be skill because you can affect the outcome.  But as what point 2 says, a skill game can NOT USE CHANCE AT ALL! In other words, most skill games are not compliant right now! I surmise these changes are because of that, this was the only way to police this.  Ive played games that, though have a randomness, are true skill games, like Dragonz or Piratez, where if you are good enough, you can win every single time.

So for Any skill game using any portion of chance, such as dice rolling, random numbers(even those that will guarentee you can match at least 1 each time!) is in violation of the original skill game policy. Funny enough though, random payouts are not disallowed, so those jackpot spinner addons are legit, because they arnt the game itself, and if you hit them, you get at least your bet back every time.

THe last one I would like to point out is Traffic Generation Games.  This one will be murkey and open to interpretation, but the way to think about itis this..

1. Players are allowed to pay for traffic. This is mostly done through one or more objects that verify that a person is there. They also can choose how to pay them, from a flat rate for beign there for a certain time, or a variable one, as well assign different rates for different people.

2. Most Traffic Generation games have the bulk of their profit come from land owners who pay to have the generator on thier site, not from the players.

3. Most Traffic Generation games do not require the purchase of additional items to participate, though these items may be purchased to access higher rates of pay for supporting the generation game in general.  In most cases, a person can participate in these games and use ONLY the funds generated from the game to get these upgrades. 

4. This these games are not gambling, or skill games as they do not rely on chance (everyone gets something every time), the player does not pay lindens to play each round (though they may buy upgrades that give advantage over other players).  These two points alone mean they are not gambling, and not skill.

So in conclusion, one can follow a simple flowchart and see if their game falls under either category.

 

1. Does the game rely in ANY PART on random chance or involve a real life sporting event? If Yes, go to 2, if No, go to 5
2. Does the game pay lindens or anything of value? If Yes, go to 3. If No, go to 5
3. Does the game have the ability to accept Lindens if Yes, STOP! GAME IS GAMBLING! DO NOT USE If No, go to 4
4. The game may be allowed, but Linden Labs has final say. Go to 5
5. Does the game utilize an in world object to play? If Yes, go to 5. If No go to 8
6. Does the game require or Permit Lindens to play? If Yes go to 6. If No go to 8
7. Does the game pay out in lindens? If Yes go to 7. If No go to 8
8. Is the game legal to use under US and International Law? If Yes, go to 9 if No, DO NOT USE! GAME IS ILLEGAL
9. Did you say Yes to steps 5-8? If Yes, GAME IS SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. If No, GAME IS NOT SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. ENJOY!

Bringing this back to the Racing from the gambling side, it does depend on what the term "Implimented" If it means that it has to be initiated through an inworld object (pay an object, play the object) then Racing isnt subject to these rules. But if it means utilizing an in world object, it may well be subject to these rules as you utilize a vehicle. I am using dictionary.com definition of  "to fulfill; perform; carry out:" to say that yes it does have to comply.  However, as the vehicle itself doesnt accept payment and such, it in itself is not under the rules. You will find that the combined interpretation means that the race course itself will fall under the rules, but the vehicles being used do not. A racer is the userof the race track, using their own vehicle.The sim owner will need to be an approved Operator.

 

Hopeftully this didnt raise more questions than it answered.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

I had a response posted, but since you think I'm somehow inconveniencing your search for answers, I've deleted it.  You had the last word. :matte-motes-grin:

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Thats fine but I am not searching for answers here exspecially from someone that has no connection or interest and a hatred towards games of skill. There are none here to be found. Answers are coming slowly elsewhere, from other game owners, attourneys requesting LL to clear up some confustion, and got the extension. It would be nice to keep chatter down for those that are looking for answers and asking questions on this policy rather than those that just hate games or like Des who is posting just so people look at his naked profile pic and plug his strip/porn bar

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I'm just posting this so you can get another look at my forum badge... since you seem to be so incessantly obsessed with it.

...Dres

[Guy Gossamer]

A Game constituted gambling if

1. (Relies on random chance OR Real Life Sporting Events)  AND
2. (Provides a Payout in Linden $ OR anything of Value)

 

WRONG WRONG WRONG

According to Linden Labs a Skill Game

1. Is implemented through an Inworld Object  AND
2. Outcome is determined by Skill, and not using chance in whole or in part. AND

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Linden Lab does NOT define or determine what gambling is.

You left out a VERY IMPORTANT phrase "material part".

I really wish people would stop confusing everyone with your incorrect take on things.

So in conclusion, one can follow a simple flowchart and see if their game falls under either category.

 

1. Does the game rely in ANY PART on random chance or involve a real life sporting event? If Yes, go to 2, if No, go to 5

WRONG WRONG WRONG

So, if the very first thing on your "flowchart" is wrong, the whole flowchart is wrong.

I really wish people would stop confusing everyone with your incorrect take on things.

[Valareos]

Guy, how can you say its wrong when it is PRECICELY, almost verbatum, what the Policies state?

 http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life  Very black and white there

 

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

1. Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,

   OR

2. Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,

AND provide a payout in

1. Linden Dollars (L$)

   OR

2. Any real-world currency or thing of value.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy and check there under define terms for skill games

• “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.

What your saying im wrong about, comes straight from lindens mouth, so to speak. Please check your own references ebfore throwing accusations . As far as that important "Material" [art you talk about.. It MEANS in whole or material part.. it means exactly what i wrote.. THat No part of the game itself can use randomness

[irihapeti]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

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Actually RL casinos are not fond of card counting. Its not illegal but they will ask a card counter to leave.

for reference I found this article about a man suing Harrah's for banning over card counting

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/feb/03/man-accused-counting-cards-sues-over-harrahs-ban/

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is actual about being greedy

every experienced blackjack player will play basic strategy and use the Thorp Count or  variation of it

Thorp Count + Basic Strategy gives the experienced player a 0.34% advantage over the house using a 8 deck shoe. Provided that the player bet 4 or more chips when the Count is +4 and 1 chip when the count is +3 or less. And +4 betting is not done until 100 cards have been dealt from the shoe, regardless of the count

where people mostly mess up is bc they get bored of it. is a grinders game this. People lose the count and start gambling

where others mess up is that they get greedy and do dumb stuff like think they smarter/cleverer than the casino sec. I can go in my local casino and spot a cardcounter from other side of room. If i can do this then so can the casino staff. and so can pretty much everyone who knows how to play this way

the easiest way to make money at blackjack is to find a cardcounter (who usual buy some book about it and gunna make zillions) just watch them for a while and see if they counting right. Like you count as well while watching them. Can know they are good counters by their bet sizing. If they good then sit the same table as them. When they increase their bets then so do you. Can have drinks and fun time with your friends while they do all the work. Amateur card counters always sit the 1 box or the last box. They read to do that in a book

 

[Guy Gossamer]

How can you say it is "PRECICELY, almost verbatum" when reading the documents you have linked shows clearly there is no definition for "gambling" which I stated to you as being wrong?

I also stated that you omitted a VERY important phrase, "material part" which you have now included, as opposed to previously writing your own spin on it. Kudos for writing what was actually written.

Now, what you should do is go and get a definition of what "material part" actually means in the context of the sentence and you will find that point 1 on your "flowchart" is in fact incorrect as I previously stated.

What I am saying you are wrong about does not come "straight from lindens mouth". You are summarising what you think it means, and nothing more. 

Again you are wrong in saying "material part" means "THat No part of the game itself can use randomness". What "material part" actually means in the context of it being part of the sentence it is in, is that, chance cannot have a material affect on the outcome of the game. 

Let me explain a little more clearly. Here is the sentence "1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance". 

The first two words of the sentence is the giveaway "whose outcome", meaning the outcome of the game. The focus of the sentence is the outcome of the game. It never mentiones randomness as you do, which of course, is WRONG on your part. Chance can have a minor effect within the gameplay, but, the sentence is saying the outcome cannot be materially affected by chance.

Don't be offering opinion when you are in fact wrong. This "material part" has nothing to do with a "part of the game itself", but is actually referring to the Material Elements Test that determines/assesses to what degrees skill or chance prevail in the outcome of a game.

[Valareos]

but... Linden DOES define what wagering is.. and it is expresly forbidden in that context, and the first 2 points of the flow chart deal SPECIFICALLY with it... 

ANd just because i didnt write "Material part" and shorted int to part, which is what it means in context of sentence doesnt make it wrong.. 

 Not to mention, you have added nothing to the conversation, gave no evidence to why i was wrong, even though i provided evidence to my post itself. and instead goes to declare me an idiot.  Mate, get over yourself, and if you are not going to give any thoughtful, rationalized response , then dont say anything at all.

 

as stated before, Linden Labs policy on Wagering (which is a generic term they use for gambling to cover more than just conventional gambling terms0 is

 

 http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" alt=":smileytongue:" title="Smiley Tongue" />olicy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life  Very black and white there

 

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

1. Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,

   OR

2. Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,

AND provide a payout in

1. Linden Dollars (L$)

   OR

2. Any real-world currency or thing of value.

The first 4 steps check THIS first, before dealing with the Skill Gaming, because if it is in violation of above, it supercedes the Skill Gaming Policy.

 

 

[Durandir Darwin]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

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Finally I am not sure if your spiritual or not but are you aware the Bible does not indicate gambling is bad or a sin. It really doesn't even address it at all. It has things to say about the obsession with wealth but nothing about gambling.

 

God even anticipated Linden Lab's skill gaming regulations:

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow.” (Proverbs 13:11) 

 

And He/She addressed game place owners personally in the Ten Commandments:

"Thou shalt not steal."

;-)

 

 

[Guy Gossamer]

"Mate",

this is where you are deluded.

"ANd just because i didnt write "Material part" and shorted int to part, which is what it means in context of sentence doesnt make it wrong.." It does make it WRONG WRONG WRONG. You are WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I explained to you in each case where you are wrong.  The best thing I can suggest, is for you to find yourself a good attorney (not me, I wouldn't have the patience for you) who you will liisten to, and then apologise to anyone who reads your "flowchart" and tell them you are not an attorney, that they should seek legal advice themselves, and not to base any decisions on your "flowchart".

You're another one who cannot accept facts when they are laid bare, clearly and articulately in front of you. 

Good day sir, I'm done with you!

p.s. To anyone else reading this, I advice you not to listen to Valareos as in my opinion he is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

[Valareos]

As for going back to material part. Here is an example...

 

There are many (MANY) Games, that after your done playing the skill part, you dont have a high enough score to win. Invariably, they come down to some event at end, (picking a bonus, or random bonus roll)  that will make a final determination if you win.. or dont win.  

even by YOUR defiition, this makes it a game of chance, as there is a PRIMARY function of the game that CAN determine if you win or not.

 

and the term "Material Part" in legal terms means belonging to the whole.. Here are a few copies of other legal documentation that make up

 

YOUR PLEDGE OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS CONTRACT AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE RIGHTS, DUTIES, AND LIMITATIONS EMBODIED IN IT, IS A MATERIAL PART OF THE LEGAL CONSIDERATION THAT THE SELLER REQUIRES FROM YOU AS A CONDITION OF SALE.

and this one

For further information, please refer to Clearwire's Acceptable Use Policy, posted at http://www.clear.com/legal/aup, which forms a material part of, and is incorporated by reference within, these Terms. 

and this

NORTHERN PRIDE llc WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF YOUR USE OF THIS WEBSITE. THE DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS CONTAINED IN THIS PARAGRAPH ARE A MATERIAL PART OF OUR AGREEMENT TO PROVIDE THIS WEBSITE TO YOU.

 

As can be seen from above, when term Material Part is used, it is dealing with a prime functionality, an integral part.  If your game accepts money, gives money, and a random generator forms an integeral part of the game (such as the numbers you get to select from)  then it is a material part.

 

And in NONE of your "YOU ARE WRONG" arguments did you ever give a real clear rason as to why, and to continue to say im wrong and berate me in this channel, and to tell others not to listen to me because of your opinion, is also in violation of LL TOS.

[Guy Gossamer]

That was funny :matte-motes-big-grin:

[Phil Deakins]

Your conclusions is that, if a game has any 'chance' at all in it, then, assuming that it would be alloed under the other factors, it is disallowed under the Skill Game Policy. In LL's Skill Game Policy it states:-

“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance

I don't understand legalese so it raises a question in my mind. The phrase "in material part" seems to me to mean a bit of chance but not much of it. If it does mean that, then your conclusion that no chance at all is allowed would be wrong. Example: there is element of chance in every card game where cards are shuffled and dealt, such as Bridge. The chance is what cards you get. After that, it's down to skill.

So my question, what does "in material part" actually mean?

That's a question for anyone who can answer it, and not just the person whose post this is a reply to.

When you wrote your conclusions, you omitted the word "material", as in, "in material part". You wrote "in whole or in part" but the policy doesn't say that. I suppose it really needs a lawyers mind to understand what the phrase actually means legally.

[Guy Gossamer]

Take two games.

Candy Crush - In the background there is an alogorithm that calculates which candies appear. It is a calculated numerical 'chance' that the candies you need at certain points will be there.  When playing the game, chance in constant throughtout the game, however, it is the player actions that determine the outcome.  Chance is not material in the outcome of the game. The skill of seeing and matching patterns is, and creting bonus/super candies determines the outcome.

Bugz in SL - (sorry to the creator) - chance is the only way of winning the game.  You match the numbers, chance whether it happens or not.  You get the bonus things at the end. Chance whether you hit the right bonuses to allow you win the game. Chance has a material part in the outcome of the game.

So, yes, chance can be in the game, but it cannot be a material part in the outcome under the Skill Gaming Policy. 

Valareos is suggesting chance can not be in any part of the game, which is wrong.

 

[Valareos]

To reiterate a previous post (found http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Skill-Gaming-Policy-Thread/m-p/2789988#M190233)

 

The following flow chart has been created using linden labs policies and their writing.  it is split into 2 parts.  First has to deal is if the game is concidered to be wagering, which linden labs makes a clear stand on.  Second part uses the definition of skill gaming that has not changed.  For sake of transparency, I will also point out how different things were defined. Remember, in the end its LINDON LABS that make final decisions, not me.  If you have a skill game that you believe qualifies, you still have to submit it through the Creator Applications.  LL will make final choice.  This flow chart though is more for those who have a game they wish to have on their sim, to see if they indeed do need to get it licensed or not.  As much as there is disagreement on what qualifies as a skill game under the new rules, this is more to clarify what does NOT need to be submitted, based on LL own policies.

 

 

1. Does the gameplay rely in ANY PART on random chance or involve a real life sporting event? If Yes, go to 2, if No, go to 5
2. Does the game pay lindens or anything of value? If Yes, go to 3. If No, go to 5
3. Does the game have the ability to accept Lindens if Yes, STOP! GAME IS GAMBLING! DO NOT USE If No, go to 4
4. The game may be allowed, but Linden Labs has final say. Go to 5
5. Does the game utilize an in world object to play? If Yes, go to 5. If No go to 8
6. Does the game require or Permit Lindens to play? If Yes go to 6. If No go to 8
7. Does the game pay out in lindens? If Yes go to 7. If No go to 8
8. Is the game legal to use under US and International Law? If Yes, go to 9 if No, DO NOT USE! GAME IS ILLEGAL
9. Did you say Yes to steps 5-8? If Yes, GAME IS SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. If No, GAME IS NOT SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. ENJOY!

The following definitions were used for items not clear.

Implemented through an In-World Object: Using a definition from dictionary .com, implimented means "to fulfill; perform; carry out". Using this definition, the above flowchart assumes that if an inworld object needs to be used in anyway, it is Implimented through an In-World Object

Material Part: using references in other legal documentation where this phrase is used, this flow chart takes it to mean an integral part, or any part that is part of the gameplay itself. If you believe that a part of your system that uses random generators is not an integral part, and it is not disqualified as being a skill game under the rest of the definitions, then just submit it to LL and let them make a decision on it. they after all the end result.

The above is meant as a guide. As with anything, when in doubt, send  a trouble ticket

[Phil Deakins]

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Valareos wrote:

What your saying im wrong about, comes straight from lindens mouth, so to speak. Please check your own references ebfore throwing accusations . As far as that important "Material" [art you talk about.. It MEANS in whole or material part.. it means exactly what i wrote.. THat No part of the game itself can use randomness

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I'm not going to argue against what you wrote, because I simply don't know, but it does seem to me that, if LL had meant "in whole or in part" then that's what they would have written. It also seems to me that adding the word "material" must make a difference, otherwise it was totally unnecessary to include it.

I'd be very interested in what a lawyer says about it. All we have now are differences of opinion about what that phrase means, and that's no good at all.

[Valareos]

Your right, the entire thing comes down to what it means by Material part.

And it does come down to what LL defines it, which they have refused to for a long time.

 

WHen you look at any other legal document that uses it, its usually in reference to terms and conditions being a maeterial part, or that another policy is a material pat of the agreement. Usually meanis if you sign one your singign hte other. Their use of it here is a bit out of the way actually.

I think we need to look at it this way, and why I replaced material part with part for ease of reading.

1: Is there any skill game out there, that uses random generators for something other than part of the game play? Beyond a random prize, id say no, there is no reason to do so, other than setting up the initial conditions, but that is not part of game play itself, that is, as Guy showed, similar to dealing out a deck of cards in a bridge game.

If the game uses randomness during game play, two people who have the same initial conditions set, will have 2 very different games. This is where the idea of the randomness being part of the gameplay.

 

Would it help if I clarified that my intent on saying being a part of the game deals with having randomness during game play? that is what i read being material part as being.

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

Yes, I did consider that the sentence talks about the outcome when I wrote the post, but I just wanted, and still want, to know what "material part" actually means legally, and why doesn't it just pay "or in part" if that's what it means. Either way, it applies to the outcome.

 

[Valareos]

WHere I would classify a game as not having Randomness as a Material Part

Game set up: Random Seed Generation

Game Play: Two player with same seed have identical game setups

Game End: Player with more skill will score better.

 

Im trying to find somewhere anythign that gives a proper legal translation to legalese

[Phil Deakins]

Alright, if LL means that no chance is allowed in the outcome of a game, it imples that chance is allowed during the game, as long as it isn't part of deciding the outcome. I don't see how that can be though, except maybe by dealing the cards in, for example, Bridge - and that's only a maybe.

In all honesty, your original 'flowchart' post stated quite categorically that no 'chance' is allowed at all in skill games, or at least anyone reading it would understand that from the post.

It really isn't clear, and it would need something from LL to make absolutely clear. But they don't need to do that. They seem to be leaving it all to the creators and their lawyers. It's down to the lawyers to decide whether or not a game fits the bill.

[Valareos]

Found it.. will give quote and reference. this was found in an intellectual property handbook

 

it descrubes on what constitutes infringement, but it states about patented inventions "o..r a material or apparatus for use in practicing a patented process, consituting a material part of the invention..."  It then goes on to describes that  "The component must be material, that is, not inessential" (INtellectual Property: A Reference Handbook, pg 39-40).

 http://books.google.com.au/books?id=DAheQ2Dl2NQC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=%22material+part%22+legalese&source=bl&ots=uhHwvVwr-w&sig=GFdRzNrdupmzNIo0Per4BZcl0cY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nzvaU4-bC8Li8AXcp4GYDg&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22material%20part%22%20legalese&f=false

By this, any process or component that is necissary for the game to work (to include seed generators) is concidered a Material Part. and the rules very clearly state that a material part cant use chance.

 

and since a game maker will NOT install something that is not needed for it to work, by simplifying it to any part resolves the legalese aspect

[Phil Deakins]

From that, it could be argued that dealing the cards in Bridge constitutes a material (not inessential) part of the outcome of the game. It's an essential of the game, even though it's not a part of the actual gameplay. It is definitely an essential part of the game and its outcome. And yet I can't see games like Bridge, Whist, etc. falling foul of the Skill Games Policy - but they may.

I'll leave it there. It does seem that my original thought, that "material part of" meant that there could be some 'chance' but not much, because that's what it sounded like to me, was incorrect. I had been thinking it meant a significant part.

[Durandir Darwin]

I'm no native speaker of English, but i'd see "material" as significant, substantial. Antonyms are minor, negligible, trivial, unimportant. 

90% or more of all games which you can find at arcades now do not (imho) have a substantial part of skill and only a minor part of chance. And should not be allowed as skill games according to the new regulations.

In some games the outcome is additionally determined by winks, toppers. These can not be influenced by skill. They don't even give the same proportion of multipliers, that means they are scripted to have a higher probability to give a 2x than a 10x for example. Creators call that "mathematically balanced to guarantee a fair profit to the owner".

If I toss a coin in RL and it is manipulated to give more heads than tails, i call it fraud...

[Valareos]

In the end.. A game set up as a Skill game has to go through the vetitng process, and LL makes the calls.  My flow chart is better used for game developers who want to make sure their game is SL compliant and dont need to be classified as a skilled gaming.

 

If one was to look at their rules, A completly random roulette wheel, that accepted no money, but gave out no transfer trinkets, would be allowed, because it does not classify as a wagering machine, and doesnt count as a skiil game because it doesnt accept money.  These discussions are good so people can know what they CAN do, especially now as us residents are out of the ability to put one or two games on our sims

[Valareos]

Durandir, I agree.  Interesting thing though, the toppers wouldnt be against the new rules, because they dont influence game play, only payout, which is triggered on a win. If those toppers had a chance to give something less than 1x bet back, it would fall foul.. SInce the toppers can be removed and not have any impact on the game, they would not be concidered material