Skill Gaming Policy Thread

[Phil Deakins]

I have no doubt that many people will appreciate the deadline being moved. It should never have been set to be so soon after the announcement.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I have no doubt that many people will appreciate the deadline being moved. It should never have been set to be so soon after the announcement.

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This^^

...Dres (Plus, we get another whole month's worth of speculation.)

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

Sorina, you seem like a nice person.  I empathize with what you're going through right now.  As I've said before in the thread, I like how you've set up your place and I don't envy what you're having to go through.  I can see you're passionate, frustrated and are looking for a sense of direction.  I know my posts haven't helped and I'd like to apologize, because I can see you are hurting through this.  I hope you find the answers you seek and find a way to continue what you love to do in SL.

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Umm no not hurting at all, your completely imagining that. It's also a common tactic to try to show your on an imagined higher ground. I have tons of options atm given I am connected to all kinds and forms of games not just pay and win games. I just came from a big skill game meeting earlier and there are plenty of options. I am just trying to clear up confusion as a few others are trying to spread it. There is a nutty perception this is only addressing solo skill games. This affects all contests and games of skill. If it didn't they would have posted those excemptions.

There is an odd delusion that these policies are the banning of games of skill or really specific types of games of skill. The policy is simply red tape so LL can continue to allow certain pay and win game of skill without being held accountable. From that meeting it was very clear LL is blatantly refusing to answer questions or clear up any confusion. This forum is pointless unfortunately because LL is refusing to communcate with their customer base and one of the larger generators if its overall income.

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I was being sincere in my post.

I agree with everything you said about the games still being allowed to exist if approved, thus it's not truly banning in the typical sense.  It is, however, banishing "games of skill" off the mainland and onto specific regions, which has the same effect as being banned if you spend all of your time on mainland; the typical SL avatar will never see these games again unless they seek them out.

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Pretty much all the major skill game places have been on private regions for ages anyway. Also if someone spends all their time on mainland they are missing out on a WHOLE heck of a lot of the best parts of SL. For the most part games on mainland were most often used to help support and fund other content that person provides so this will damage what little worthwhile  content that is on mainland is out there a bit. In world stores don't really cut it unfortuantely.

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Linden Lab wrote:

UPDATE: the deadline has been 

moved

 to September 1, 2014 

(previously was August 1)

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Thank you for the extention. But as others have said with such a major change from the perspective of content creators, entertainment providers, and Linden Labs itself a more realistic time table should have been a no brainer at the top especially when having to deal with legal channels. Your customers (not your residents of the SL empire) urge you to do better in the future. The vast majority of those effected are making huge efforts and strive to work within these new policies. Please do what you can to clear up any and all confusion, keep the lines of communications as much as possible that of course is still within the best interest of Linden Labs being mindful we are your customers.

[Sorina Garrigus]

go troll youtube Dres, The trolls there are slipping and need new guidance.

[sirhc DeSantis]

"...Your customers (not your residents of the SL empire)..."

You know, I had a little sympathy for your plight and that of others in the same boat, right up until you said that. Well done.

Just so you know, I have not resided on the mainland that you despise for 4 years but still love it and explore it. And getting

rid of all the gaming rubbish will only make it even better.

[Sorina Garrigus]

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sirhc DeSantis wrote:

"...Your customers (not your residents of the SL empire)..."

You know, I had a little sympathy for your plight and that of others in the same boat, right up until you said that. Well done.

Just so you know, I have not resided on the mainland that you despise for 4 years but still love it and explore it. And getting

rid of all the gaming rubbish will only make it even better.

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I don't dispise mainland I have been on it for years going back to 2004 really with some breaks in between. I use to ride my favorite motorcycle all the time on the roads until crossing sims became a problem on it. But unfortunately all the most compelling content with a few exceptions are on private sims. Full castles, big RPG sims, huge multi sim builds etc. Not sure how having less to do on mainland will make it better or having something that can fund content on mainland.

I don't dispise mainland your just inventing things 20 miles out of context.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

go troll youtube Dres, The trolls there are slipping and need new guidance.

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I'm glad to see you woke up in a better mood today.

...Dres

[irihapeti]

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Stormie Windlow wrote:

In the words of one high roller, who is quite successful, when asked how do they do it...his reply was...."by simply, watching and gaining the knowledge when to play".

Makes you think doesn't it?

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yes. is particular true this with pokie machines that pay out jackpots. is lots of people clock the machines in casinos

the most profitable time for clockers to collect mini-jackpots (not the big one) is typically 2am-4am on Saturday and Sunday morning

other people been feeding them all the prev evening

+

altho if casino sec mark you as a greedy clocker then with the modern pokies they can and will change/lengthen the jackpot mechanism on any machine the clocker is playing. Can see this also in reverse when a brand new person to the casino with lots of money buyin seems to get amazing "beginners luck" on the casino pokies

+

about greedy

is same with blackjack cardcounters and game theory experts. If do this kinda stuff then if take a few 100 dollars off the table now and again then casino sec are ok with this. If go back every day tho and try to take 1000s each week then they get unhappy

casino actual likes it when people win (take money off the table/game/machine). It encourages other people to keep playing when they see other people win. Casino just dont like it when clockers/counters/etc get greedy. More for greedies means less is available to be paid out to others. Casino wants more people to "win" than less people

 

[Yingzi Xue]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

Pretty much all the major skill game places have been on private regions for ages anyway. Also if someone spends all their time on mainland they are missing out on a WHOLE heck of a lot of the best parts of SL. For the most part games on mainland were most often used to help support and fund other content that person provides so this will damage what little worthwhile  content that is on mainland is out there a bit. In world stores don't really cut it unfortuantely.

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I disagree with your assessment of mainland.  Some of my fondest memories are from mainland locations going back to 2007 and continue to be.  None of those fond memories come from seeing or playing casino style games on the mainland.  In fact, I hadn't ever played one until just before the skill gaming policy came out, just to test the skill factor.  Seven years and I never spent $1L on a casino style game.  I can't speak for anyone else, but casino games never factored into my SL experience, except for doing research for my own game I was working on.

Mainland owners love their mainland experience.  Would I own a private region if I could afford it?  I don't know if I would.  There's something about owning mainland that you can't get on a private region, a sense of belonging and community.  I rarely visit private regions. 

In-world stores don't cut it? There are 50k people in Second Life on any given day (give or take). I wonder how many of those would say they enjoy mainland and in-world stores but don't play casino games.  A large portion, I would expect.  Don't take my word for it, zoom in on the various mainland continents. See all those green dots?  Those are people enjoying mainland content, like in-world stores.  Mainland is teeming with life.  I'm willing to bet (pun intended) that most mainland locations don't even offer casino style games as part of their content.

This in no way negates the fact that there is a segment of the population that likes and plays casino style games, but it's important to keep perspective.  That lack of worthwhile mainland content and those in-world stores that don't cut it--they seem to be active and thriving.

 

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

Pretty much all the major skill game places have been on private regions for ages anyway. Also if someone spends all their time on mainland they are missing out on a WHOLE heck of a lot of the best parts of SL. For the most part games on mainland were most often used to help support and fund other content that person provides so this will damage what little worthwhile  content that is on mainland is out there a bit. In world stores don't really cut it unfortuantely.

---

I disagree with your assessment of mainland.  Some of my fondest memories are from mainland locations going back to 2007 and continue to be.  None of those fond memories come from seeing or playing casino style games on the mainland.  In fact, I hadn't ever played one until just before the skill gaming policy came out, just to test the skill factor.  Seven years and I never spent $1L on a casino style game.  I can't speak for anyone else, but casino games never factored into my SL experience, except for doing research for my own game I was working on.

Mainland owners love their mainland experience.  Would I own a private region if I could afford it?  I don't know if I would.  There's something about owning mainland that you can't get on a private region, a sense of belonging and community.  I rarely visit private regions. 

In-world stores don't cut it? There are 50k people in Second Life on any given day (give or take). I wonder how many of those would say they enjoy mainland and in-world stores but

don't play casino games

.  A large portion, I would expect.  Don't take my word for it, zoom in on the various mainland continents. See all those green dots?  Those are people enjoying mainland content, like in-world stores.  Mainland is teeming with life.  I'm willing to bet (pun intended) that most mainland locations don't even offer casino style games as part of their content.

This in no way negates the fact that there is a segment of the population that likes and plays casino style games, but it's important to keep perspective.  That lack of worthwhile mainland content and those in-world stores that don't cut it--they seem to be active and thriving.

 

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"I disagree with your assessment of mainland.  Some of my fondest memories are from mainland locations going back to 2007 and continue to be. "

I made no assessment on mainland as a whole. Not that it matters but I been on mainland since 2004 and dealing with the good and the bad of it. But a major hit the SL economy will not have a positive effect on mainland. There is no question there will be a lot of abandon or sold of sims and the land values will take a drop as some people leave both game places and content that relies on income from games of skill. It is not a question the SL economy will take a significant hit but it will recover. Mainland has always been rather random and chaotic but that was part of its charm usually. I was only commenting as far as content sims dedicated to highly signficant content as opposed to a random shopping mall which i see less and less on mainland, houses and some occassional pretty awsome content such as Inspire Space Park. By the way I just looked at that on the map though and half the map is covered by countless land sale dollar signs on most the sims bordering it. I was just mentiong specific content in private sims such as huge RPG sims, entire city areas, and a lot more. Not really sure why your turning this into a mainland attack given I been on mainland for 7 years. But I find it extremely silly to actively not have your avatar visit one LL server over another LL server. It's all SL. Just private sims, or islands like they called them in the old days, have much more control over their builds obviously.

 

"This in no way negates the fact that there is a segment of the population that likes and plays casino style games"

Casino style games have been banned since 2007. I see them around now and then but they are very very rare and are violating the wagering policy. This shouldn't be news.

 

"In-world stores don't cut it? There are 50k people in Second Life on any given day (give or take). I wonder how many of those would say they enjoy mainland and in-world stores but don't play casino games."

Again your acting highly confused. Casino games are not allowed anywhere in SL. I know your not confused so your actively derailing the point of this forum.  On stores they don't support content like they use to. The market place damaged that severely and I know that first hand. In the old days malls were all over the place and I agree they were great but I don't see them anymore. I see more and more content creators abandoning land and just selling on the marketplace. There still is in world shopping but market place killed it which is why you see so much of mainland for sale.

 

"Mainland owners love their mainland experience."

Yes WE do. But I never limited myself to staying just on mainland. you should get out and see the sights your missing. There are some very awsome detailed builts out there. This whole mainland discussion is way off topic.

Why exactly are you posting here since these policies have no effect or really concern for you. It's just clogging this point of this forum which is probably why in part LL just gave up responding.

[Yingzi Xue]

I had a response posted, but since you think I'm somehow inconveniencing your search for answers, I've deleted it.  You had the last word. :matte-motes-grin:

[Guy Gossamer]

Sorina, you have single handedly on this thread done more damage to the perception of skill gaming within Second Life than anyone else.  As a gaming sim owner, in the application process, I can confirm what others are saying. You are wrong on so many topics, you use definitions that are incomplete to suit your own deluded twist on things, and you fail to be objective when presented with relevant facts by other contributors.

To everyone else, if you are searching for any factual data on this topic, please ignore the rantings and ramblings of Sorina Garrigus, and listen to other contributors.  Sorry, but having read every single page and post of this thread, she is so far removed frrom what is factual and correct, following her advice could actually have negative legal implications for you.

[Sorina Garrigus]

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irihapeti wrote:

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Stormie Windlow wrote:

In the words of one high roller, who is quite successful, when asked how do they do it...his reply was...."by simply, watching and gaining the knowledge when to play".

Makes you think doesn't it?

---

yes. is particular true this with pokie machines that pay out jackpots. is lots of people clock the machines in casinos

the most profitable time for clockers to collect mini-jackpots (not the big one) is typically 2am-4am on Saturday and Sunday morning

other people been feeding them all the prev evening

+

altho if casino sec mark you as a greedy clocker then with the modern pokies they can and will change/lengthen the jackpot mechanism on any machine the clocker is playing. Can see this also in reverse when a brand new person to the casino with lots of money buyin seems to get amazing "beginners luck" on the casino pokies

+

about greedy

is same with blackjack cardcounters and game theory experts. If do this kinda stuff then if take a few 100 dollars off the table now and again then casino sec are ok with this. If go back every day tho and try to take 1000s each week then they get unhappy

casino actual likes it when people win (take money off the table/game/machine). It encourages other people to keep playing when they see other people win. Casino just dont like it when clockers/counters/etc get greedy. More for greedies means less is available to be paid out to others. Casino wants more people to "win" than less people

 

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Actually RL casinos are not fond of card counting. Its not illegal but they will ask a card counter to leave.

for reference I found this article about a man suing Harrah's for banning over card counting

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/feb/03/man-accused-counting-cards-sues-over-harrahs-ban/

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Guy Gossamer wrote:

Sorina, you have single handedly on this thread done more damage to the perception of skill gaming within Second Life than anyone else.  As a gaming sim owner, in the application process, I can confirm what others are saying. You are wrong on so many topics, you use definitions that are incomplete to suit your own deluded twist on things, and you fail to be objective when presented with relevant facts by other contributors.

To everyone else, if you are searching for any factual data on this topic, please ignore the rantings and ramblings of Sorina Garrigus, and listen to other contributors.  Sorry, but having read every single page and post of this thread, she is so far removed frrom what is factual and correct, following her advice could actually have negative legal implications for you.

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I use direct facts, quotes, and show sources. I came out of a big skill game meeting and there is an attourney currently working with LL to iron out all the confusion and grey areas. This in part is why there was an extention. So progress is being made.

If I disagree with 2 possibly three contributors its those that clearly dislike skill gaming at all or for anyone. Describing them as casino style games etc. If you have specifics I would be happy to respond. But some people for some reason think one skill game is exempt (racing) and another is not (slingos,chess tournaments, etc). Some posters are saying skill games have are being banned when it is a registration process.

Lastly your game room apparently does not exist thats in your profile. There is no sim where the Royal Grand suppose to be. Also no profile picture, no payment info on file and two groups. Clearly your an alt.

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

I had a response posted, but since you think I'm somehow inconveniencing your search for answers, I've deleted it.  You had the last word. :matte-motes-grin:

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Thats fine but I am not searching for answers here exspecially from someone that has no connection or interest and a hatred towards games of skill. There are none here to be found. Answers are coming slowly elsewhere, from other game owners, attourneys requesting LL to clear up some confustion, and got the extension. It would be nice to keep chatter down for those that are looking for answers and asking questions on this policy rather than those that just hate games or like Des who is posting just so people look at his naked profile pic and plug his strip/porn bar

[Yingzi Xue]

This post is directed to the thread, not any particular person:

I don't hate skill games, in fact, I have had a skill game in development for years that is 100% skill based.  The element of chance in my game has been reduced to the point of being a non-factor vs skill.  I have several skill game concepts in the works.  All of them will be free to play. 

What I don't agree with: 

1) Slapping the skill label on games that have questionable skill elements.

2) People who feel the need to make a never-ending profit off of the loss of others, while at the same time encouraging addiction.  I don't care if there's entertainment value or not, there is a negative impact on players, but not on the wallets of the game operators.

In the end, LL has the say what passes as a skill game, not me, not anyone in this thread.  All games may be approved.  It doesn't validate any more in my mind whether they have any reasonable skill element and that's the beauty of being a thinking individual, I am free to formulate opinions and defend them on a public forum.

So allow me to direct this to Linden Lab:  If you're going to allow these types of games, there should be some clear cut acceptable percentages and skill vs chance ratios that are adhered to.  The result would be players having a decent advantage and game operators having to wait longer to make a modest profit.  It still doesn't address the addiction, but since you're allowing games of skill anyway, how about some skill required in those games.

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

This post is directed to the thread, not any particular person:

I don't hate skill games, in fact, I have had a skill game in development for years that is 100% skill based.  The element of chance in my game has been reduced to the point of being a non-factor vs skill.  I have several skill game concepts in the works.  All of them will be free to play. 

What I don't agree with: 

1) Slapping the skill label on games that have questionable skill elements.

2) People who feel the need to make a never-ending profit off of the loss of others, while at the same time encouraging addiction.  I don't care if there's entertainment value or not, there is a negative impact on players, but not on the wallets of the game operators.

In the end, LL has the say what passes as a skill game, not me, not anyone in this thread.  All games may be approved.  It doesn't validate any more in my mind whether they have any reasonable skill element and that's the beauty of being a thinking individual, I am free to formulate opinions and defend them on a public forum.

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"1) Slapping the skill label on games that have questionable skill elements"

I agree there are games out there that fall into this catagory but this happened because the way LL handled games for the last 7 years. But this policy addresses that and some games will not likely make it through or be able to  be able to have a legal opinion offered on as a game of skill. But have you researched these games, Tested them, look into the game mechanics? Determined how much impact each decision has on the game?

"2) People who feel the need to make a never-ending profit off of the loss of others, while at the same time encouraging addiction. "

Game owners are FAR from not taking risks themselves. Profits are not guaranteed. Also I have never met a single game owner that actively encouraged addiction. In fact a friend of mine has banned people at the request of themselves or friends that have been said to have problems with self control. Your blind sweeping prejudicial comments in this area is not helpful. Any game operator that encounters such an individual with a clear problem they should ban them for their own good. I only seen a few problems with this.

 

"I don't care if there's entertainment value or not, there is a negative impact on players"

Who are you to say there is a negative impact on players. Wouldn't the players have a say in this? Maybe your fond of thought police but most of us are not. Most of us prefer freedom of choice for grown adults. Keep in mind by condemming games of skill at least legit ones your condeming things like carnival games, penny pitches or throwing darts to pop balloons etc.

I personally think smoking is stupid and bad for people but I don't think people should stopped if they want to smoke if it doesnt affect other people. If people are addicted to eating poorly I don't think all fast food places should all be shut down for "encouraging peoples addictions"

Finally I am not sure if your spiritual or not but are you aware the Bible does not indicate gambling is bad or a sin. It really doesn't even address it at all. It has things to say about the obsession with wealth but nothing about gambling.

 

1) Slapping the skill label on games that have questionable skill elements.

[Gaia Gabe]

Question for LL

We are running contests that started before the new Skill gaminc policy .

Some contests will take a lot of time before payment. Prolly they will pay out after Sept.1st.

It could happen that winners that will be paid reside in one of the prohibited stated o& contries or are underage.

This will be considered a violation of Skill gaming policy ?

We can check if contesters have payment info on file but no way to check out where they lives or their age.

 

 

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Gaia Gabe wrote:

Question for LL

We are running contests that started before the new Skill gaminc policy .

Some contests will take a lot of time before payment. Prolly they will pay out after Sept.1st.

It could happen that winners that will be paid reside in one of the prohibited stated o& contries or are underage.

This will be considered a violation of Skill gaming policy ?

We can check if contesters have payment info on file but no way to check out where they lives or their age.

 

 

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Hopefully LL will respond but my best guess would be if say its a contest board and games are removed before Sept first but leave the board it "should" be ok within their policies. But if you want to be very safe I might suggest posting a sign explaining the situation and pay out early before September 1st.

[Yingzi Xue]

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Gaia Gabe wrote:

Question for LL

We are running contests that started before the new Skill gaminc policy .

Some contests will take a lot of time before payment. Prolly they will pay out after Sept.1st.

It could happen that winners that will be paid reside in one of the prohibited stated o& contries or are underage.

This will be considered a violation of Skill gaming policy ?

We can check if contesters have payment info on file but no way to check out where they lives or their age.

 

 

---

In order to be in line with the September 1st deadline, I would either set the payout date at August 31st or earler, or refund everyone involved.

[Yingzi Xue]

If you're going to regulate games or have them approved, they're already being policed.  Standards for said games should be a natural extension of that and makes perfect sense.  Especially if you're going to tout them as games of skill.  Wanting fairness for the players isn't a bad thing, it benefits everyone.  I see nothing wrong with LL doing a thorough vetting of all games during the approval process. 

I suspect that LL will approve all submitted games and defer responsibility to the applicants and their submitted paperwork.  Somewhere down the road, if any of it comes into question, LL has money stashed back to defend themselves (the new fees) and game creators and operators "got some 'splainin' to do".

[Sorina Garrigus]

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

If you're going to regulate games or have them approved, they're already being policed.  Standards for said games should be a natural extension of that and makes perfect sense.  Especially if you're going to tout them as games of skill.  Wanting fairness for the players isn't a bad thing, it benefits everyone.  I see nothing wrong with LL doing a thorough vetting of all games during the approval process. 

I suspect that LL will approve all submitted games and defer responsibility to the applicants and their submitted paperwork.  Somewhere down the road, if any of it comes into question, LL has money stashed back to defend themselves (the new fees) and game creators and operators "got some 'splainin' to do".

---

" Wanting fairness for the players isn't a bad thing, it benefits everyone "

Your not calling for fairness and the vast majority of the games in SL are not rigged and are fair. Slots can be fair as well actually.

 

"I see nothing wrong with LL doing a thorough vetting of all games during the approval process."

Its not in their best interest to do so and they are not actively approving games in the way your thinking. They are gathering reasoned opinions. If they "approve" games they created a liability issue for themselves if it is found otherwise. They will read legal opinions why a game is skill based and the responsibility will be on that attorney and owner. They want to distance themselves from legal liability without censoring content and their bottom dollar of course. Really if they were smarter they would have done something like this years ago.

"I suspect that LL will approve all submitted games and defer responsibility to the applicants and their submitted paperwork. Somewhere down the road, if any of it comes into question, LL has money stashed back to defend themselves (the new fees) and game creators and operators "got some 'splainin' to do".

You contradicted yourself a bit on the approval bit but this is what I am getting as well. If you ask me LL has some splainin' to do for the last 7 years. Maybe they did and this is the result. To be frank I am a bit more than suprised LL never had a policy not allowing pay and win games in PG areas. I swore I saw something to that effect at some point but I never was able to find it again if it was there at all

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

I had a response posted, but since you think I'm somehow inconveniencing your search for answers, I've deleted it.  You had the last word. :matte-motes-grin:

---

Thats fine but I am not searching for answers here exspecially from someone that has no connection or interest and a hatred towards games of skill

. There are none here to be found. Answers are coming slowly elsewhere, from other game owners, attourneys requesting LL to clear up some confustion, and got the extension.

It would be nice to keep chatter down for those that are looking for answers and asking questions on this policy

rather than those that just hate games

or like Des who is posting just so people look at his naked profile pic and plug his strip/porn bar

---

Wrong again. Nobody in this thread has expressed a hatred towards skill games. Your imagination knows no bounds.

Then stop chattering. You're the one who chatters the most - by a very long way - and who causes most of the rest of the chatter. Try leaving you imagination in bed and stick to facts if you're going to post at all.

Nobody in this thread hates games. Where do you get your silly ideas from? It's certainly not from reality.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Yingzi Xue wrote:

So allow me to direct this to Linden Lab:  If you're going to allow these types of games, there should be some clear cut acceptable percentages and skill vs chance ratios that are adhered to.  The result would be players having a decent advantage and game operators having to wait longer to make a modest profit.  It still doesn't address the addiction, but since you're allowing games of skill anyway, how about some skill required in those games.

---

I agree with that. I don't know how one would measure an accurate percentage though. The thought occured to me that the same game can be shown to 2 different lawyers and one will verify that it's within LL's rules of chance vs skill, and the other won't verify it. If 2 creators produce the same game, each dressed up differently, of course, one game could easily get verified and the other not. LL's wording about the amount of chance is such a large grey zone that it's bound to happen.