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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

When it comes to games I would be the very first to object to say a rigged game that cheated people. I also think there should be laws about real casinos that offer free alchol with the intention to impair peoples judgement. But I do have to say investments are a form of gambling such as the stock market. But anyone that gambles on games of chance as a way to try to make money (other than say professional sportsmen who pay fees to enter contests) spending their money foolisherly. Anyone that chooses to play a game should do so like it was just another way of spending their entertainment dollar. Anyone that does otherwise I would suggest they use their entertainment dollar elswhere.

Yes Its a shame that a lot of those classic SL skill games got pushed to the back burner. Perhaps they will make it to the front lines again with these polices. Honestly there are more than a few games I am not sure why LL allowed in the last few years based on their own polices.


So many differing opinions on gambling alone... and that's just one subject that pertains to SL.  If you start talking about sex, you open up a new can of worms.  The only way to get a real idea how everyone feels is to put up a vote.  In my state, a company wanted to come in and build a casino, but gambling wasn't allowed or hadn't been.  They were able to get the issue on a ballot for a vote.  People voted for the casino.  Now we have one.  BUT... none of it matters for SL because LL runs the show.

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

If it's a digression from Sorina's ramblings, it's very welcome
:)

Another reason I haven't come across those things is because I hardly ever go anywhere in SL. My feet are usually glued to one spot. I won't bore you with why, but it's true.

 

An aside - about filling a sim

I used to run traffic bots and I was very proud of the system I created for them. I've had many a good argument about traffic bots in the orginal forum
:)

I owned most of a mainland sim but 2 or 3 other people owned very small bits of it. My system was such that it would fill the sim almost to capacity with traffic bots, but it always left a few spaces for other people to arrive. I did need customers to be able to get in, of course. So, when an avatar arrived in the sim, one of mine logged out. When an avatar left the sim, one of mine logged in. But there were always several empty spots and the sim would never be full. Other land owners, and their guests, could always get in because mine logged out as people arrived.

I'd developed the system over a number of weeks and the day came when it was finished. It worked perfectly, and it was a joy to watch it in operation. The very next day, LL announced that gaming traffic will be banned as of a certain date a few weeks hence. My pride and joy died at birth 
:(

I'm the same way, I hardly ever leave my land.

See, now that's responsible.  I wouldn't mind if it were being done responsibly.  I do everything I can to be a responsible citizen of SL, which means going out of my way to ensure my scripts have as little impact on a region as possible, being as efficient as possible... and respecting/sharing mainland with my neighbors.  I've never had an issue where I received a complaint, because I care to do right by others.  That's the crux of it, it's all I expect, common courtesy.

Man that sucks that you had to let it go.  My partner and I both use bots, one each for our separate businesses and then we share with our joint projects, in case one goes down there's a backup.  Good ole scripted agents. hehe

Good ole scripted agents, yes :)

Since that time I've used demo bots in the store - on sex beds and a sofa, for people to try them out with an avatar, or watch a couple on the animations, to find out if they want to buy or not. I also had castle characters, including a maiden locked in a tower, waving a handkerchief out of the window, looking for her prince to come and rescue her. Guys would sometimes try to chat her up lol. Others were castle guards that walked around both the castle and the sim.

I still use an alt. She's not a bot though because she's in on a viewer and with her own monitor. I watch the store with her, while I do other stuff on the other monitor. In other words, she's manned :)

She's a she because I created and paid for her (it cost $5 to create an alt back then) for the specific purpose of earning some money by poledancing. But I'd no idea how to go about it, so she's only ever been used functionally - testing anims and watching the store.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Good ole scripted agents, yes
:)

Since that time I've used demo bots in the store - on sex beds and a sofa, for people to try them out with an avatar, or watch a couple on the animations, to find out if they want to buy or not. I also had castle characters, including a maiden locked in a tower, waving a handkerchief out of the window, looking for her prince to come and rescue her. Guys would sometimes try to chat her up lol. Others were castle guards that walked around both the castle and the sim.

I still use an alt. She's not a bot though because she's in on a viewer and with her own monitor. I watch the store with her, while I do other stuff on the other monitor. In other words, she's manned
:)

She's a she because I created and paid for her (it cost $5 to create an alt back then) for the specific purpose of earning some money by poledancing. But I'd no idea how to go about it, so she's only ever been used functionally - testing anims and watching the store.

*grin*  Yes, our bots get IM'd multiple times a day.

Gender in SL is meaningless to me.  I don't even think about it.  I have both male and female avatars, each serve a purpose of sorts.  I recently rescued an old bot from deletion.  I deleted her in 2010 and they restored her for me this year.  She still had everything intact.  LL does redeem itself once in awhile.

And with that, I think I'm gonna head to bed.  It's 4:50am. lol

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Another little aside

Do you know that for a certainty? It still had a ranking effect with the GSA, even though many people believed that it didn't. More than once I've described (in the forum) how LL incorporated traffic into the rankings, and it wouldn't surprise me if they've included it with the current engine - maybe even in the same way.

A few days ago, I had a little discussion with someone about it, and I did just 2 searches. I know it's an incredibly small sample, but it did appear to me that traffic still has an effect in the rankings. It may not have, but, on that extremely tiny sample, it did look as though it has.

I'm not 100% sure, but I know I get unique results every time when I use search, which don't appear to be weighted with traffic numbers at all... or if they are, they're interspersed with other search results.  Maybe they're still using a pseudo traffic algorithm and it's just not public knowledge, or evident.  It wouldn't surprise me.

You can still get a top listing if you list your business in a unique way.  One of my locations ranks in the top 10 consistently, but results might vary depending on what your business is.

They use an open source engine now; i.e. a freebie, but a good freebie The GSA was leased from Google. They cost a lot of money to lease and they leased 4 of them.

So they aren't using a pseudo-traffic algo. It's a proper search engine that ranks pages according to good search engine methods. Undoubtedly it emulates Google. They do have access to the code, of course, which they never had with the GSA, and they may have incorporated traffic into the code. Or they may have used the same method of incorporating it that they used with the GSA  Or they may not have included traffic at all. I'd be surprised if they haven't though.

I just wondered if you knew for a certainty. I lost interest in search some years ago so I've never done any testing with the current one. My sample searches were teeny weeny, so anything I could read into them would be very unreliable.

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

*grin*  Yes, our bots get IM'd multiple times a day.

The demo bots on the sex beds used to get tips :)

They were never naked but once in a while some guy or other would try to persaude one of the females to remove the bits she had on lol.

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No, I don't know about the search vs traffic.  I was just speculating.

Bots receiving tips. lmao Now that's gambling. :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

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   There is a really grey area in banking policy about stock exchange markets in SL. Most of those markets were gone in 2007 when the banking policy has been published first, but there is one who could (for some reason)go around Banking Policy simply because they have clasified themselvs as (and i quote from their logo) : ,,The #1 Stock Market Simulation Game In SL``( i wont give the name of the company because i don`t want to advertise for them here).

  Based on my personal observations about the stock exchange market in question they have all atributes to qualify under the banking policy but as i said for some reason they have been ignored and they could operate without troubles since they qualified themselv as a simulation game. Recently there are 22.000 traders on their website and they have listed 50 companies who are operating in SL.Stock exchange is made in SL curency L$ and companies listed are paying dividents to share holders pretty regular. There is always rumours dramas around this becuase there is always suspicions about how things are handled in such market.
  Finally here is my question : The new Gaming Policy is going to catch up with Banking Policy and close down this particular business or they will continue to be clasified as SIMULATION GAME and not be touched by the Skill Gaming Policy either?
   Thank you and i hope will get an answer as less evasive as possible !

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Hi Innula,

What I meant by "paid into" is that most contest boards for example, allow anyone to add to the prize. That's not pay to play, that's simply more people adding to the pot as a gift. Our events are never set pay to play, people just get generous and throw in. It should be seen and determined to be a gift. This is what I mean, it's all grey areas and no info.

I find it even more ridiculous if you CAN set such items NOT to accept other peoples money, why that is not sufficient on a single sim with 1 game/contest board etc. LOL It's just... absolutely stupid for the little guys.

I don't expect LL to answer "me", I DO expect them to answer in more detail the ridiculous changes they are inflicting on the grid as a whole. Considering we pay a fair slap of money every month for very little help and even less options, I don't think it's much to expect. They stopped bothering to respond at all pages ago.

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I think you misunderstood me. We don't -take- any money. We -gift- money, in contests (boards/trivia etc) My comment about tier was pure frustration because it doesn't matter how long you've lined their pockets, you still get treated like dirt unless you're one of the "names".

5k per game if you have 20+? What about normal everyday sims that have maybe 3 games, a contest board and a trivia ball? Yes, thats sims like ours. Sim's created for fun, not profit, who are going to suddenly have to pay for the privilege of...giving away gifts because it may skirt the line of chance/skill to determine the outcome of the winner? Yes, great idea Linden Lab, I can see they thought this through really well for non-profit entities.

Can ya see where I'm going? Little people screwed over for the rich ones, as always. Winning.

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Crash Leclerc wrote:

   There is a really grey area in banking policy about stock exchange markets in SL. Most of those markets were gone in 2007 when the banking policy has been published first, but there is one who could (for some reason)go around Banking Policy simply because they have clasified themselvs as (and i quote from their logo) : ,,The #1 Stock Market Simulation Game In SL``( i wont give the name of the company because i don`t want to advertise for them here).

  Based on my personal observations about the stock exchange market in question they have all atributes to qualify under the banking policy but as i said for some reason they have been ignored and they could operate without troubles since they qualified themselv as a simulation game. Recently there are 22.000 traders on their website and they have listed 50 companies who are operating in SL.Stock exchange is made in SL curency L$ and companies listed are paying dividents to share holders pretty regular. There is always rumours dramas around this becuase there is always suspicions about how things are handled in such market.

  Finally here is my question : The new Gaming Policy is going to catch up with Banking Policy and close down this particular business or they will continue to be clasified as SIMULATION GAME and not be touched by the Skill Gaming Policy either?

   Thank you and i hope will get an answer as less evasive as possible !

I know exactly what company you're talking about and I agree.

If a game, by design, skirts around policies to make itself legit, then LL needs to take a look at the inner workings of said game.  Much like "skill" gaming, such games have been thriving on skirting around policies or finding new workarounds so they pass muster... when it's obvious what they really are.

I don't think LL will be back to answer your question.  When August 1st rolls around, start ARing with the detailed explanation you gave, that'll at least get them to take a look at it.

The parasitic "gaming" formula needs to be dealt with (as ToS and policies pertain, of course).  Workarounds like 3rd party currencies and exchanges created to escape being considered pay-ins are blatantly obvious.  I hope LL cracks the whip come August 1st.

Enforce the ToS and policies, that's all I ask.  If these games are allowed to exist without scrutiny then we all might as well be doing the same.  If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

The coming days are going to be interesting.

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   Yes Yingzi Xue looks like August will be a hot month ! :)

  I think SL has become such big megacity that our gouvernor Linden simply can`t follow what`s happening on the grid and doesn`t have the man power to enforce his own ToS...

 

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Crash Leclerc wrote:

   Yes Yingzi Xue looks like August will be a hot month !
:)

  I think SL has become such big megacity that our gouvernor Linden simply can`t follow what`s happening on the grid and doesn`t have the man power to enforce his own ToS...

 

Put me in charge.  I'll clean 'em right up... and I won't even need a staff under me.  One objective person is all it takes.  SL needs a person who will clean house, go visit sites around the grid, look at the scripts and make a determination.  They won't do that though, they'll just put all the onus on you and if they get enough AR's or legal pressure they'll take action... maybe.

 

The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st. :P

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Crash Leclerc wrote:

   Yes Yingzi Xue looks like August will be a hot month !
:)

  I think SL has become such big megacity that our gouvernor Linden simply can`t follow what`s happening on the grid and doesn`t have the man power to enforce his own ToS...

 

Put me in charge.  I'll clean 'em right up... and I won't even need a staff under me.  One objective person is all it takes.  SL needs a person who will clean house, go visit sites around the grid, look at the scripts and make a determination.  They won't do that though, they'll just put all the onus on you and if they get enough AR's or legal pressure they'll take action... maybe.

 

The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st.
:P

You are beginning to sound like a Vigilante.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

You are beginning to sound like a Vigilante.

I'm joking.  It's theater.  I'll let LL sort 'em out.  Even though I don't agree with it, unless it affects me in an adverse way, I don't care.

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

You are beginning to sound like a Vigilante.

I'm joking.  It's theater.  I'll let LL sort 'em out.

OK.  Thanks.

Sadly, I know from this thread and from other things I have heard there are people set to AR everything and anything that has any kind of pay in or pay out involved in it at all.

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If it were my job, of course I'd take it seriously.  As it is, I think I've only put in 1 or 2 AR's in my whole SL life... going back to 2007.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Yingzi Xue wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

You are beginning to sound like a Vigilante.

I'm joking.  It's theater.  I'll let LL sort 'em out.

OK.  Thanks.

Sadly, I know from this thread and from other things I have heard there are people set to AR everything and anything that has any kind of pay in or pay out involved in it at all.

Oh I'm sure there are AR parties chomping at the bit.  I'm too busy with my own thing to concern myself about it, I'll sit back and watch what happens.  I have strong opinions, but I won't be ARing unless it affects me personally.

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Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy.

Thank you

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Ariaah wrote:

Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy.

Thank you

Car racing is called a motorsport.  You yourself called it a fantasy sport.  I would think that would fall under the wagering policy.  If you require pay in to an object for the race by the contestants or patrons, that would fall under the skill gaming policy and require an application for approval of the activity or game.

The only way I can see that you can still do what you're doing is if you pay the money yourself and no one else pays in.

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i wonder if anyone else has figured it out yet.. i still see no approved games.

Over the weekend i figured out exactly how to make No-Devil, Zyngo etc.. and many other games completely dependant on skill, extremely little to no chance  involved in the result of the game, while giving the operators a fixed % profit with no risk.

Unfortunately for LL and the gaming community i have absolutely no interest in going through this legal BS to create/own skill games in what is a fast dying world, with LL recent actions only likely to speed this up.

Also there is no practical way for me to sell the idea on. i would just get ripped off...

Now i write this, i think, why am i even posting this. LOL

 

 

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Ariaah wrote:

Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy.

Thank you

Car racing is called a motorsport.  You yourself called it a fantasy sport.  I would think that would fall under the wagering policy.  If you require pay in to an object for the race by the contestants or patrons, that would fall under the skill gaming policy and require an application for approval of the activity or game.

The only way I can see that you can still do what you're doing is if you pay the money yourself and no one else pays in.

This is still something  I am not sure about but really lean toward it being ok. 

Maybe because it is all being done "electronically" my analogy does not apply.  But in RL competing in a sport is not gambling or gaming.  And there are very few laws covering participation in sports.  Most if not all are self governing.  Baseball, Horse Racing, Car Racing, Wrestling, Boxing, etc, etc, are all primarily self governing.  There was no law forbidding Pete Rose from betting on Baseball.  That was the Major League's own rule.

I've watched car races in SL.  Competitors usually provide their own vehicles.  The object simply holds the "purse," composeed of the entry fees they pay in order to compete.  Betting on the outcome would be a seperate thing and would be proscribed.  But I don't see the racing itself as being gambling or gaming.

As I said, maybe my analogy falls flat because it is all being done "electronically," but I do see a distinction here.

 

 

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Crash Leclerc wrote:

   Yes Yingzi Xue looks like August will be a hot month !
:)

  I think SL has become such big megacity that our gouvernor Linden simply can`t follow what`s happening on the grid and doesn`t have the man power to enforce his own ToS...

 

Put me in charge.  I'll clean 'em right up... and I won't even need a staff under me.  One objective person is all it takes.  SL needs a person who will clean house, go visit sites around the grid, look at the scripts and make a determination.  They won't do that though, they'll just put all the onus on you and if they get enough AR's or legal pressure they'll take action... maybe.

 

The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st.
:P

This isn't addressed towards you but those in general that have a misguided book burning, communist party hearings, and witch trial mentalities in general as it relates to games of skill.

Before anyone starts hurrassing people and such people should have ARs filed against them for both hurrassment, abusing the AR system and for wasting LLs time clogging the system with bogus ARs, they should first know what the hell they are doing and what the hell the policies are. If pay and win games or contests or game tournaments etc are on mainlaind then you can file ARs on those. BUT KNOW WHAT THE DAMN POLICIES! Skill game ARE being allowed. That has NOT changed one bit. They are just being confined to specific game sims AND those

"Provided that you submit an application before August 1, 2014, you may continue to operate games of skill while your application is being reviewed."

source: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ

If you file ARs against like crazy villiagers chasing after Frankenstien's monster against honest game places trying to abide by policies set forth by LL with games LL actively allowed for years and years then you would be acting out of malice, ignorance, and making SL a crappier place to be.

Keep in mind that for someone to be against and hate games of skill they actively should equally hate Chucky Cheese where you play games and win tickets for prizes, carnival games and penny toss. Any sports where the participants have to pay entry fees.

 

"The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st"

:/ Sorry this is such a dangerous mindset and a blatant contradiction. Forcing one individuals ethics upon anothers is FAR from ethical. To be blunt it nearly sounds like the slogan that might be used by a blatant hate group if it was used in a different context.

 

 

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:


Yingzi Xue wrote:


Crash Leclerc wrote:

   Yes Yingzi Xue looks like August will be a hot month !
:)

  I think SL has become such big megacity that our gouvernor Linden simply can`t follow what`s happening on the grid and doesn`t have the man power to enforce his own ToS...

 

Put me in charge.  I'll clean 'em right up... and I won't even need a staff under me.  One objective person is all it takes.  SL needs a person who will clean house, go visit sites around the grid, look at the scripts and make a determination.  They won't do that though, they'll just put all the onus on you and if they get enough AR's or legal pressure they'll take action... maybe.

 

The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st.
:P

This isn't addressed towards you but those in general that have a misguided book burning, communist party hearings, and witch trial mentalities in general as it relates to games of skill.

Before anyone starts hurrassing people and such people should have ARs filed against them for both hurrassment, abusing the AR system and for wasting LLs time clogging the system with bogus ARs, they should first know what the hell they are doing and what the hell the policies are. If pay and win games or contests or game tournaments etc are on mainlaind then you can file ARs on those. BUT KNOW WHAT THE DAMN POLICIES! Skill game ARE being allowed. That has NOT changed one bit. They are just being confined to specific game sims AND those

"Provided that you submit an application before August 1, 2014, you may continue to operate games of skill while your application is being reviewed."

source:

If you file ARs against like crazy villiagers chasing after Frankenstien's monster against honest game places trying to abide by policies set forth by LL with games LL actively allowed for years and years then you would be acting out of malice, ignorance, and making SL a crappier place to be.

Keep in mind that for someone to be against and hate games of skill they actively should equally hate Chucky Cheese where you play games and win tickets for prizes, carnival games and penny toss. Any sports where the participants have to pay entry fees.

 

"The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st"

:/

Sorry this is such a dangerous mindset and a blatant contradiction. Forcing one individuals ethics upon anothers is FAR from ethical. To be blunt it nearly sounds like the slogan that might be used by a blatant hate group if it was used in a different context.

 

 

If you go back and look at my post, it was a joke, hence the tongue-in-cheek smilie.  I even stated as such in the next reply.  People are going to do what they are going to do, I am not in contact with anyone or part of any group.  If there's a conspiracy, I don't know about it.  I won't be ARing unless a game reaches out and affects me personally, as it has in the past.

I think you're being paranoid.  I've only seen one or two people say they're going to AR in 770+ messages.  Also, it doesn't matter if you apply as an operator if there are no games to apply for.  The odds that a game creator is going to apply and be approved by August 1st seems slim, therefore, one could conclude a game operator would be wasting their time applying for games that don't exist in the approved game list.

 

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