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Hi Yingzi,

Skill gaming is defined as "a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. "

 

Thank you,

 

 

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Hi Sassy,

The application fee is $100, and upon approval, license fees will be waived through the end of 2014. Following this initial period, a reasonable license fee will be assessed quarterly, but the exact amount is yet to be determined. When the quarterly license fees have been determined, we'll add this information to our FAQs.

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It's likely LL trying to protect them self from US law.  Gambling was a huge part of the SL economy before it was banned, with the new tax requirements for virtual currencies it's likely LL had to do more to protect them self.  One of the people I rent land from, said she lost 50,000 $USD in lost rent just from casinos leaving SL after the ban.  With all the Sex and violence in SL I see no moral reason why LL woulden't want to make $ from letting people gamble.  The problem from what I understand isen't gambling it's self, but the crazy regulations for the handling of the $ transactions for the service provider, like LL has to deal with.

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It appears that our response may have been taken out of context.

A game of skill is defined as "a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. "

Thank you,

 

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Hi Octavia,

Provided that region content is in compliance with our existing terms of service and policies, an adult maturity rating would not affect the skill gaming region designation. 

 

 

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I've seen and AR'd Raffles for a item. Pay say 10l to be one of a fixed amount of entries. No method of a free entry as required by , as I understand it CA law. Raffle was allowed to finish. Then same place had another - ARd . It finished

 

Are these legal? No skill - pure gamble - will these continue to be allowed - to me I can't see why . And if never legal -- why no enforcement?

 

I assume building contests that are free to enter and say costume contests at clubs that are free to enter are both allowed at their current locations . OR if these contests use a board that COULD be toggled to allow a pay to enter feature now have to be trashed.

 

Is the game greedy is not allowed in a private home since it can be toggled to a pay game? Will Linden remove all these items from the grid automatically if not on a gaming sim?

 

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is a popular table game called Greedy Greedy. It's usually played for free and without any prize of any kind. But it includes the option of pay-to-play and of giving a L$ prize. The game involves clicking to roll 6 dice. The result of the roll is down to chance. Trying to mount up point, players select which dice to keepand whether or not to roll again. If they get too grredy and continue to roll the dice too many times, they'll not add any points, or even lose the points they have. That's a very general idea of the game.

Rolling the dice is the significant chance part, while deciding which dice to select and whether or not to continue rolling needs thought.

My question is this: Will that game be allowed to be played for free and without prizes, without it needing to be in a Skill Gaming region? Or will the fact that it can be set to pay-to-play and give cash prizes, even though it isn't being used that way, mean that it can't be used in a non-Skill Gaming region. I.e. will the fact that it CAN be used with money void it from being used without money in non-Skill Gaming Regions?

i think that the inventors will start offering 2 versions of games. Pay to play version. And No pay to play version. Is less hassle for them in terms of licensing. Is less hassle for venue owners and resident customers as well

+

just on games like greedygreedy

i think the key part of the policy is in the Defined Terms

“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance;

the inventor of a game has to show that the outcome is not materially affected by chance. The onus is on the inventor. If they cannot then no license

with greedygreedy then can show that like in poker a good player will over the long run beat a lesser player most times. However a lesser player can beat a good player by getting lucky. In this case the outcome is materially affected by chance

Poker tournaments are pretty good examples of this. When a good player gets knocked out then they sigh: Variance baby!! What can you do?

or as Phil Hellmuth (the best Texas Holdem tournament player in the modern era) says: Honey! if it wasnt for luck I would win every tournament

so l think will be difficult for a Pay to Play version of a game like greedygreedy to get a skills game license

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When you pay into a Raffle, I see it more like a donation to the club... for me it's nothing like gambling. Plus, it's not a game where you do anything to play it. The only interaction you make with a raffle-ball is paying it L$. Not like poker or one-armed bandits or other casino games or even zyngo games, where you play one or more games to win.

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

It's likely LL trying to protect them self from US law.

agree. They just getting themselves compliant with the law. Is not just LL doing this. Every US company operating on the internet is these days. US Justice Department is doing its job. enforcing the law as wrote

i think if anybody has a problem with these things then they best to get on to their elected representatives in the RL and get the laws changed. Is the only way to change these things

 

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What about a game where you go from sim  to sim across the grid hunting for coins or gems or other hunt objects and then after locating those objects you can cash out at an atm .. thegame is free to play .. it is basically a hunt for fractions of lindens   and bragging rights for rank .  

 

and please i ask respectfully for you not topaste that paragraph again ,, it is so vague that it does not answer this question 

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Hi Cam,

Games of chance are and have been prohibited in accordance with our Wagering Policy. If you encounter such items, you may submit an AR to our support team for investigation.

As for contests, Second Life residents will need to make this determination on a case by case basis to the extent that they believe that their "sploders", contest boards, and other objects are deemed a game of skill (instead of chance which is still prohibited under our Wagering Policy), and will need to comply with our updated Skill Gaming Policy.

In the event that we become aware of any violations of our policies, we retain the discretion to take action pursuant to such policies.

best regards,

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MartinRJ Fayray wrote:

When you pay into a Raffle, I see it more like a donation to the club... for me it's
nothing
like gambling.

it is gambling as defined by the law

that we might feel differently about it dont change the law. Laws can be a real pita sometimes but they are what they are and they will get enforced by the people whose job it is to do that

laws can be changed. and are pretty much constantly. We just need to participate in the law changing process to effect the changes we want. if we dont then others do and they get the changes they want

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Cam Mode wrote:

Raffles are very regulated . Gives a short list of what all is involved.

 


In the very first line it says: "If participants are required to purchase a ticket in order to have a chance to win a prize, the drawing is subject to the provisions of Penal Code section 320.5 and related regulations as a raffle."

 

Hence, raffle-balls/sploders which don't require the purchase of a ticket in order to have a chance to win a prize are legal, and NOT a game, therefore they shouldn't (and won't) fall under the new Skill Game policy.

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I know I probably will be told to consult an attorney, but I am going to ask. Is Greedy tables part of Skills Gaming? I have read and researched and as far as I can see it is just the games like bugs (in a casino) that are skills games. I even asked the Greedy owner of the tables and was asked if I could provide a list of games considered to be skilled games. Is there anyway we can get a list? I need to know if I need to pay for a license and an attorney. This will be quite a bit of money for a license but I will do it if I have too. I am just looking for some answers to my questions please.

thank you

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Aizur Zessinthal wrote:

So if I make a game you can pay L$ to for additional items, special power ups, etc, then its a pay to play game? Or not? Does Bloodlines run afoul of this, since you have to pay ongoing costs to the game if you cannot find human to spam-err, bite? That's a pretty vague requirement if paying the game to play can be used as a single point determinator to decide if a game is a Game of Skill or not, since you no longer need to consider if the game pays money back out to participants. Is that what you are telling us, that if a game meets any of the 4 points in the guidelines, then it's a game of skill?

And how is this going to affect places like Capital Exchange and The Rock, who do stock-trading? Those types of businesses could also loosely be considered gambling too... they came close to being axed through the banking ban, and now with how vague some of the language in this is, could the argument be made that they also have to be approved and reside in skill gaming territory?

 

I really wanted to reopen my small arcade... and was in the process of doing so, but now with the LL costs effectively being doubled (and possibly more, since some of the extra charges still haven't been specified.), even us small operators will have to cluster together on the same sim instead of spreading out like we would prefer to do.

 

This stinks on so many levels... and then who knows how much the attorney fees are going to be to get the required opinion they want operators to supply, when we aren't even in a position to examine the inner workings of the games themselves? If LL approves (which effectively endorses via a rubber stamp about its legitimacy) of the specific game, WHY is it on the operator to have to prove it yet again, when LL has already authorized it?

 

On top of that, since LL is taking such an involvement in the gaming community, that opens up a lot more liability for LL... and considering the way they abandoned adult verification, to shed liability, is that really something they actually want to take on? That would make them a much more active participant, and if something happens with a game that they approved of, they become a party to it, instead of standing apart and just being the people who maintain the infastructure we all reside in.

 

Am I going to be willing to pay hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more) USD to get me, and my few games, apprioved, and pay double-tier for my small arcade, which, even under the previous rules, still would have only made me enough to cover my tier with a couple thousand L$ a month extra to buy clothes and gadgets with?

 

And SLL is fake currency in the first place! It says so right in LL's ToS! If I'm never cashing out anything (and I never have, yet) from the grid, how does it even become an outside legal matter, when, by definition, this is still game currency (Second Life), which is spent on items within the game, and never sees the real world?

 

How would other games that have their own currency be able to operate under these conditions too? World of Warcraft? Star Trek Online? Both of which actually have fully random gambling within their worlds.

 

I think this is going to turn out to be a huge clusterf*ck for Linden Labs, and a huge mess for us trying to have our own bit of fun in-world.

 

There are already regulations in place for those businesses who are profitable enough and withdraw a real-world income from their activities in SL.

 

This is just nuts all around, sorry, LL, but it is...

 

-- Smoov

 

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TerryDavidd wrote:

What about a game where you go from sim  to sim across the grid hunting for coins or gems or other hunt objects and then after locating those objects you can cash out at an atm .. thegame is free to play .. it is basically a hunt for fractions of lindens   and bragging rights for rank .  

 

and please i ask respectfully for you not topaste that paragraph again ,, it is so vague that it does not answer this question 

If it 's free to play then I woulen't see why this policy would even apply to it.  It would be good if LL made a clear statement on this point, by it's self it should be a clear back and white case, but if you have to first buy a hud or some thing would that change things?

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You can only use already approved skill games, so if you want to host a skill gaming region, you will need to find a skill game you can rent/purchase/license from this page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants#Approved_Skill_Games

 

The creator of those tables will have to contact support about the issue, if he is in doubt whether he needs to report his games as skill games or not.

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Linden Lab wrote:

It appears that our response may have been taken out of context.

A game of skill is defined
as "a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. "

Thank you,

 

"1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance"

This rule makes all current "skill games" ineligible, as every last one of them is contingent, "in material part", upon chance.

 

Also, if all those games are still considered legal, then Poker should still be considered legal, as there are plenty of rulings that have occurred, stating that Poker is a game of skill, and not gambling, like slot machines would be. (that's another argument tho)

 

-- Smoov

 

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One other question comes to mind... who exactly is the Operator, anyways?

 

Most of the games I have (5) are Jaded Kickers games...

 

I don't operate the games, Jaded operates them... all I do is offer space on my land for them to place them on, and in return for letting them have them on my land, they pay me for it.

 

I don't administer the games at all, if there is a problem with one, the customer deals with Jaded, not me. I have no ability to do anything with the games of any substance which would qualify me as being an 'operator' of said game. I'm simply a landlord for Jaded in this case.

 

Would I need to still be an authorized Operator, to rent land on a gaming sim, even tho I don't own any of the games that reside on my parcel, when I don't own the sim myself?

 

We need a clearly detailed response on this... what _precisely_ is an Operator here?

 

-- Smoov

 

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Dear Linden Lab Community Manager, I have a few imporrtant questions regarding the new Skill Gaming Policy changes.


Linden Lab's policy defines a "Creator"  as follows:

“Creator” shall mean a Second Life resident recognized by Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process as the creator of an approved Skill Game, in accordance with Linden Lab’s requirements.


Questions:

 

  1. If a resident is hired by another resident to build the physical prims for a game of skill or to write a script for the game of skill, is the hired builder and/or scripter the "creator" of the game of skill or is the person who hired them considered the creator?
  2. Does a builder or scripter need a license to be hired to create a game of skill or is the license only required for the person offering the game for sale and distbution and/or operating it?
  3. If the scripter or builder is considered a creator, what happens if they're hired to create a game that doesn't pay out L$ but the script is then modified by someone else so that it does?
  4. Likewise, what if someone else's previously created scripts (or build) are used in a game of skill?  The original scripter or builder or game creator may have no control over this use if they previously sold the scripts/build with full permissions.

 

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:


TerryDavidd wrote:

What about a game where you go from sim  to sim across the grid hunting for coins or gems or other hunt objects and then after locating those objects you can cash out at an atm .. thegame is free to play .. it is basically a hunt for fractions of lindens   and bragging rights for rank .  

 

and please i ask respectfully for you not topaste that paragraph again ,, it is so vague that it does not answer this question 

If it 's free to play then I woulen't see why this policy would even apply to it.  It would be good if LL made a clear statement on this point, by it's self it should be a clear back and white case, but if you have to first buy a hud or some thing would that change things?

is pretty tricky this one. Would need to get a RL legal opinion on it

the argument tho basically goes:

I own a network of resident Free To Play games. The outcomes of these games is determined purely by chance. Venue owners who participate in the network pay me a fee to be part of the network

the legal argument then is:

is indisputable that I (the network owner) am operating a game of chance. Entry into which is by payment

the resident players are not paying a fee to play. The venue owners are paying it on the residents behalf

a Court Judge will ask the question: How does this differ from someone else buying a raffle ticket for me? Is still a raffle, no matter who buys the ticket, isnt it?

so to answer this question then will need more than: I dont think is the same thing Your Honour

Judge will then ask me to please explain why I dont think so

the point the judge will want me (the network owner) to address in my argument is: whether or not I (the network owner)require a gaming license to operate the network

+

with a grid hunt where get clues and have to work it out to find the prize then is not dependent on chance. Is a game of skill. So agree about that

a trivia game is also a game of skill. Have to know or find out the correct answer to get the prize

+

with games like cones then it gets murky and I think have to be careful about how these games are constructed. Like if are just getting random sent to dif grid locations by the operator, wait a time, and then get paid. Then I think it will fall under the first example I gave

to fix this so is compliant then the inventor/operator can change what the resident player has to do to collect the prize. For example can ask the player to solve a puzzle, like correct answer a triva question, etc

 

 

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