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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Yingzi Xue wrote:

I stopped by one of the largest gaming operations I've ever seen, yesterday in SL.  I couldn't believe the size of this place.  It takes up two private regions.

 
  • 72 Greed (payable Greedy) divided up into 3 locations of 24
  • 30 Stomp the Fox 2
  • 44 Money Vault
  • 58 Bugz
  • 44 4Play
  • 44 Devil Hunt
  • 44 No Devil
  • 44 Reel Wild
  • 58 Reel Wild Progressive
  • 42 Wizard
  • 58 Enchanted

Not a gambling operation at all.  People stop by for the wholesome environment and to test their skill.  At least for another 10 days.

Let me get this straight... you counted 538 games across 2 sims and went through the trouble of separating them into a list of their instances by name?  That must have been quite an undertaking, just to be able to create a pointless forum post.  Or perhaps you were just testing out your counting skills?

...Dres

Maybe you were too busy looking at your own avatar to understand the gist of the post.  Let me elaborate since you seem distracted...

Is all simulated gambling in Second Life is illegal?

This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities.

The fact that LL hasn't enforced the existing policy on gambling and questionable games of skill means that it has gone unchecked.  The fact that operators like the above can grow to epic proportions and actually make a profit (and most likely pay for their tier and then some), is reprehensible and proof positive that money is the main factor in said games.  Until they're approved by LL as skill-based games, any argument
for
them is invalid.  I stick by my assessment that these games are more gambling than skill based.

As for counting the games, they were labeled with big bold signs, it took 5 minutes; something I was happy to do to prove a point, which you seemed to have missed while busy stroking your own ego.

I'm glad you think my avatar is compelling enough that I should feel so enamored by it.

I understood the gist of your post perfectly, I simply don't see the point in stating the bloody obvious.  Of course people are drawn to those games because of the prospect of maybe winning some cash.

...Dres

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Votarn Torvalar wrote:

Do we know how Linden Labs intend to enforce these rules?  It seems that Sploders have always been illegal yet they seem to rely on members reporting them as abuse.  Will they really try to find every Greedy table that currently has the potential for requiring a pay fee?

 

I am aware of a large number of sploders that were ARed in the past at a giant multi sim region. LL left them untouched. Sploders were definitely banned along with all the other games of chance. But they seem to be used in clubs in the last few years and can easily be found on the market place.

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Yingzi Xue wrote:

I stopped by one of the largest gaming operations I've ever seen, yesterday in SL.  I couldn't believe the size of this place.  It takes up two private regions.

 
  • 72 Greed (payable Greedy) divided up into 3 locations of 24
  • 30 Stomp the Fox 2
  • 44 Money Vault
  • 58 Bugz
  • 44 4Play
  • 44 Devil Hunt
  • 44 No Devil
  • 44 Reel Wild
  • 58 Reel Wild Progressive
  • 42 Wizard
  • 58 Enchanted

Not a gambling operation at all.  People stop by for the wholesome environment and to test their skill.  At least for another 10 days.

Two private sims is not uncommon. There are some out there that are 4 sims large. A couple years ago there were game sims 6 sims big. I think there is at least one that is 6 sims large still.  I am not entirely sure why you were suprised at a two sim sized gaming place. You must not have visited too many I guess.

Some residents for some reason want to think of skill games as problematic activities that have been hiding in the shadows.

Anyone else find out absurd LLs blog title was in relation to "Skill games coming soon to second life"? When they been within TOS and actively allowed in full for the last 7 years? That was one of the most bold face examples of BS that came out of LL for years. Basically they were saying hey we are finally actively allowing skill games we been actively allowing and even now is still in our TOS since 2007. They are only coming soon if LL somehow invented a time machine and was going back to get rid of games from the last 7 years. As far as I can say this is just their highly transparent way of saying that we never allowed skill games contrary to 7 years of history or their wagering TOS but are now allowing them under certain conditions. It all just smells something awful.

 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Coming-Soon-Skill-Gaming-in-Second-Life/ba-p/2771080

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

gaming.JPG

 

Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Yingzi Xue wrote:

I stopped by one of the largest gaming operations I've ever seen, yesterday in SL.  I couldn't believe the size of this place.  It takes up two private regions.

 
  • 72 Greed (payable Greedy) divided up into 3 locations of 24
  • 30 Stomp the Fox 2
  • 44 Money Vault
  • 58 Bugz
  • 44 4Play
  • 44 Devil Hunt
  • 44 No Devil
  • 44 Reel Wild
  • 58 Reel Wild Progressive
  • 42 Wizard
  • 58 Enchanted

Not a gambling operation at all.  People stop by for the wholesome environment and to test their skill.  At least for another 10 days.

Let me get this straight... you counted 538 games across 2 sims and went through the trouble of separating them into a list of their instances by name?  That must have been quite an undertaking, just to be able to create a pointless forum post.  Or perhaps you were just testing out your counting skills?

...Dres

Your comment got me curious.  I'd never been to one of these
gambling
gaming SIMs before.  I don't know if this is the two SIM set up they were referring to but was the first one I found using search.  The way it is organized would not be all that hard to count.

 

 

There were about 80 Ava's across the two SIMs and judging from their actions I don't think they were Bots.

Nope, this isn't the one, but it's typical of the gaming operator locations in SL.  To call them anything other than casino's is an insult to intelligence.  They look like casino's, sound like casino's, play like casino's and they operate like casino's.  Some even call themselves casino's.  To argue different is to fly in the face of common sense.  People can argue skill vs chance all day long, but the truth is, if these games were primarily skill based, people would be getting rich on these games and they're not.  It's rigged, so that game operators are guaranteed a profit.  I don't think anyone can argue against the idea that if a game takes money and if they player loses money more than making money, despite any skill they may be using, that's pretty much gambling.  Call it for what it is.  And LL let it exist for 7 long years.  If skill were such a factor, it wouldn't be a successful business, because the players would make more than the game operator could pay out.  Thus, either skill is hampered by design or chance is a bigger factor than people want to admit.

Having a lot of experience with games I can say the games are not rigged. Some could be and some have been in the past but most of the credible game creators do not rig the games they make. The game owners can adjust the scores is how they can profit. The higher the pay out the higher the score. When a game owner sets the scores poorly they players can an do get rich from the. Some games players have developed certain strategies on cetain games and do better than most. Streetz for example I never done well at. Something about that game just never clicked for me.

I will say some games pushed too far into the areas of chance though. I suspect with these new policies some games won't make it in. But there are plenty of more legit skill based games out there. They just been pushed to the side of popularity of the players because LL actively allowed games that they should have booted.

But there are a lot of skill game websites outside of SL. They work a bit differently but some are similar to what you see in SL.

I found an article on About.com that talks about a number of high profile skill game websites.

http://internetgames.about.com/od/playingformoney/

 

Also laws aside there is nothing wrong with "gambling" unto itself. If your neighbor goes out and buys a lottery ticket at a liquor store most people don't think OMG what an evil sinful person!!! Addition is an issue though but this is a problem in a lot of areas upto and including being addicted to Second Life which I been guilty of in the past and spent way too much time into it at times.

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:


Two private sims is not uncommon. There are some out there that are 4 sims large. A couple years ago there were game sims 6 sims big. I think there is at least one that is 6 sims large still.  I am not entirely sure why you were suprised at a two sim sized gaming place. You must not have visited too many I guess.

Some residents for some reason want to think of skill games as problematic activities that have been hiding in the shadows.

Anyone else find out absurd LLs blog title was in relation to "Skill games coming soon to second life"? When they been within TOS and actively allowed in full for the last 7 years? That was one of the most bold face examples of BS that came out of LL for years. Basically they were saying hey we are finally actively allowing skill games we been actively allowing and even now is still in our TOS since 2007. They are only coming soon if LL somehow invented a time machine and was going back to get rid of games from the last 7 years. As far as I can say this is just their highly transparent way of saying that we never allowed skill games contrary to 7 years of history or their wagering TOS but are now allowing them under certain conditions. It all just smells something awful.


In LL's defense, even back in 2007 the internet was still something fairly new.  The powers that be didn't quite know how to deal with it.  It's taken years for policies to develop.  Look at Napster, MP3's, peer-to-peer, just to name a few.  Even today we're seeing social media being a consideration for a job interview.  The internet will continue to grow and change with the times.

That said, LL dropped the ball in 2007 and should've laid out clear-cut rules which should've stayed in place and changed as needed along the way.  Instead, they just let people have free reign to create games based solely on a hint of skill.

The lack of clear direction from 2007-2014 has benefited those who were willing to take a chance.  What hasn't been discussed is the impact it has had on scripters over the years. 

There are those of us who have sat back and watched, wanting to create our own games but always having the fear of having our hard work rejected, or worse, being banned for some feature you thought was ok.  Sure, we could've made a game, made a profit on it and then found out later we were against policy.  Then have to explain to your customers, well golly gee, we didn't foresee this happening (which would've been a lie given the lack of clarity).  I didn't want to be in that situation.

What we have now with the new skill gaming policy isn't the best, but at least it gives a clearer picture for an SL game developer.

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

 

Also laws aside there is nothing wrong with "gambling" unto itself. If your neighbor goes out and buys a lottery ticket at a liquor store most people don't think OMG what an evil sinful person!!! Addition is an issue though but this is a problem in a lot of areas upto and including being addicted to Second Life which I been guilty of in the past and spent way too much time into it at times.


I was going to address this.  Your reply is perfect timing.

Just recently in my state they legalized gambling by allowing a casino to be placed in the state capitol.  I've been there, played a few slots.  In 2004, I went on a motorcycle trip which took me through Niagara on the Canadian side, where I won $200.  I went to Vegas in 2002 where I spent most of my time gambling.  I won $400 there (then lost it all like an idiot).  Personally, I find slot machines exhilerating.

The lottery, at least in my state, pays for schools, etc.  When I play the lottery, I know it's going to a somewhat worthy cause, if you trust other people to handle the money properly.

There are regulations on gambling for a reason.  If left unchecked, people will always take advantage.  Even after August 1st, there are still no real restrictions on how a scripter should script a game, just that it needs to pass legal scrutiny and be approved by LL.  Hopefully the knowledge that LL can look at your scripts at any time will keep scripters in check.  How do you know really?  Unless you're the scripter.  This is the main difference between real-world and SL.  No oversight.

If I were LL, I'd be looking at the scripts of every game I receive for approval.  I'd go over the code with a fine-toothed comb to make sure the gameplay is fair to the player.  If they did that and gave it their stamp of approval, I'd be ok with that.

One last observation about gambling.  I think it's nothing more than a well-devised scam that preys on unrealistic expectations (the next big win) and addiction to the rush.  Does that mean I won't go play a game now and then in real-life?  No.  It does mean that until I have a reasonable assurance that "skill" gaming in SL isn't a racket, I'll remain skeptical. 

Let's keep in mind, gambling in SL is prohibited.  Unless a scripter can prove his product doesn't have some element of gambling (a pretty tall order), it should get the boot.  By design the house always has the advantage.  Any game that earns a steady income for the operator while the player has inconsistent or negative winnings, that's gambling to me.  If a game has any chance at all (i.e. how what pops up next is determined is always chance), it falls under the wager policy. Chance could be a random number, but it could also be a randomized list.  Even if you develop an algorithm to get around the number being random, it's still chance.

 

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Hello, LL
 
I have some doubts about the new Skill Gaming Policy.
I'm going to apply as operator since I own a 2-regions gaming place.
From 1st August as an operator I will be allowed to have only transactions with players and on my regions only.
No more gift or other kind of transactions.

https://secure.echosign.com/public/hostedForm?formid=9EX6XU7I3J32XJ
4 OPERATOR REQUIREMENTS
section c)
 
I am really concerned about this because this will be very very limiting.
 
As You can imagine.... I use not to keep all my money on the main account for security reasons and also.... all us owners have lots of missing payments by game machines.
How could we pay them to players if GIFTs are nomore allowed?
What if I want to buy a new skin for my avi or a building...
 
but what I’m concerned about most is that I need to store my money on another account
for security reasons.

Could I use my alts (or bots) for this?
 
Is there a way for us to have a list of verified alts for this purpose.
 
Please consider to review this part of TOS.

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Pluto Shelman wrote:

Hello, LL

 

I have some doubts about the new Skill Gaming Policy.

I'm going to apply as operator since I own a 2-regions gaming place.

From 1st August as an operator I will be allowed to have only transactions with players and on my regions only.

No more gift or other kind of transactions.

 

4 OPERATOR REQUIREMENTS

section c)

 

I am really concerned about this because this will be very very limiting.

 

As You can imagine.... I use not to keep all my money on the main account for security reasons and also.... all us owners have lots of missing payments by game machines.

How could we pay them to players if GIFTs are nomore allowed?

What if I want to buy a new skin for my avi or a building...

 

but what I’m concerned about most is that I need to store my money on another account

for security reasons.

 

Could I use my alts (or bots) for this?

 

Is there a way for us to have a list of verified alts for this purpose.

 

Please consider to review this part of TOS.

I understand your security concerns and not wanting to keep your "bank" on this account.

But your "making good on missed payouts" doesn't make sense.  You are not sending a gift.  You are just correcting a failed payout.  So keep good records.

However now we understand one of the reasons sometimes people come to this Forum complaining they didn't recieve a payout.  There weren't enough $L's in the operator's account to make the pay out.

I'd say that it should be required that an operator always have enough $L's in their account bank to always cover pay outs.

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"Two private sims is not uncommon. There are some out there that are 4 sims large. A couple years ago there were game sims 6 sims big. I think there is at least one that is 6 sims large still.  I am not entirely sure why you were suprised at a two sim sized gaming place. You must not have visited too many I guess.

Some residents for some reason want to think of skill games as problematic activities that have been hiding in the shadows."

 

Skill games have not been hiding in the shadows, the truth is, that most games in SL now are based on chance rather than skill. The "material part" of skill demanded is certainly not to be found in games like Zyngo v8.5 or No Devils. 

Loads of games now even use toppers/winks or other elements, where the amount of the payment to the players is determined by pure chance. Spinning a wheel and getting 2x, 3x or 10x of your payment.

Sorry, i may have to correct myself. Not "chance", as these additional elements are of course scripted to give a much higher probability of giving a 2x than a 10x.

"If the score that triggers a victory is correct, Wink always ends up (in the long run) by giving the expected profit to the owner. " (Manual of Wink)

Any skill in that? No. 

 

 

 

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Durandir Darwin wrote:

"Two private sims is not uncommon. There are some out there that are 4 sims large. A couple years ago there were game sims 6 sims big. I think there is at least one that is 6 sims large still.  I am not entirely sure why you were suprised at a two sim sized gaming place. You must not have visited too many I guess.

Some residents for some reason want to think of skill games as problematic activities that have been hiding in the shadows."

 

Skill games have not been hiding in the shadows, the truth is, that most games in SL now are based on chance rather than skill. The "material part" of skill demanded is certainly not to be found in games like Zyngo v8.5 or No Devils. 

Loads of games now even use toppers/winks or other elements, where the amount of the payment to the players is determined by pure chance. Spinning a wheel and getting 2x, 3x or 10x of your payment.

Sorry, i may have to correct myself. Not "chance", as these additional elements are of course scripted to give a much higher probability od giving a 2x than a 10x. Any skill in that? No. 

 

 

 

Using a prefab table to skew chance in the operator's favor is still chance, just skewed chance.

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Sorry, this "chance part" was probably misunderstandable (i'm no native speaker of English).

If i toss a coin, it's chance, if it lands on head or tails.

If a topper/wink is scripted to give 70% multipliers of 2x for payment and 30% 10x (simplified), it's not chance, but deceiving players/manipulation.

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Durandir Darwin wrote:

Sorry, this "chance part" was probably misunderstandable (i'm no native speaker of English).

If i toss a coin, it's chance, if it lands on head or tails.

If a topper/wink is scripted to give 70% multipliers of 2x for payment and 30% 10x (simplified), it's not chance, but deceiving players/manipulation.

Same thing I was just trying to say. :matte-motes-smile:

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Yingzi Xue wrote:


Sorina Garrigus wrote:

 

Also laws aside there is nothing wrong with "gambling" unto itself. If your neighbor goes out and buys a lottery ticket at a liquor store most people don't think OMG what an evil sinful person!!! Addition is an issue though but this is a problem in a lot of areas upto and including being addicted to Second Life which I been guilty of in the past and spent way too much time into it at times.


I was going to address this.  Your reply is perfect timing.

Just recently in my state they legalized gambling by allowing a casino to be placed in the state capitol.  I've been there, played a few slots.  In 2004, I went on a motorcycle trip which took me through Niagara on the Canadian side, where I won $200.  I went to Vegas in 2002 where I spent most of my time gambling.  I won $400 there (then lost it all like an idiot).  Personally, I find slot machines exhilerating.

The lottery, at least in my state, pays for schools, etc.  When I play the lottery, I know it's going to a somewhat worthy cause, if you trust other people to handle the money properly.

There are regulations on gambling for a reason.  If left unchecked, people will always take advantage.  Even after August 1st, there are still no real restrictions on how a scripter should script a game, just that it needs to pass legal scrutiny and be approved by LL.  Hopefully the knowledge that LL can look at your scripts at any time will keep scripters in check.  How do you know really?  Unless you're the scripter.  This is the main difference between real-world and SL.  No oversight.

If I were LL, I'd be looking at the scripts of every game I receive for approval.  I'd go over the code with a fine-toothed comb to make sure the gameplay is fair to the player.  If they did that and gave it their stamp of approval, I'd be ok with that.

One last observation about gambling.  I think it's nothing more than a well-devised scam that preys on unrealistic expectations (the next big win) and addiction to the rush.  Does that mean I won't go play a game now and then in real-life?  No.  It does mean that until I have a reasonable assurance that "skill" gaming in SL isn't a racket, I'll remain skeptical. 

Let's keep in mind, gambling in SL is prohibited.  Unless a scripter can prove his product doesn't have some element of gambling (a pretty tall order), it should get the boot.  By design the house always has the advantage.  Any game that earns a steady income for the operator while the player has inconsistent or negative winnings, that's gambling to me.  If a game has any chance at all (i.e. how what pops up next is determined is always chance), it falls under the wager policy. Chance could be a random number, but it could also be a randomized list.  Even if you develop an algorithm to get around the number being random, it's still chance.

 

"The lottery, at least in my state, pays for schools, etc."

When they passed the bill to allow the lottery in California ages ago that was the argument for doing so. But our schools are currently underfunded  and get cuts all the time to their budgets now because tax revenue is going in other directions probably because of the money they may or may not be getting from the Lottery. According to this article the lottery generates 4 billion in business a year and public education only sees 1 billion of it. It doesn't all go to the schools and other souces of revenue is pulled out. Schools in California would be doing great things if that 4 billion was all going to them.

http://www.allgov.com/usa/ca/departments/independent-agencies/state_lottery_commission?agencyid=233

On Slot machines I personally find them boring with very few exceptions. But I am more of a gamer and want more to do than sit in front of a shiny machine staring at spinny wheels and flashing lights. Some modern ones do good on the eye candy to make them entertaining but to each their own. I will go to video rouette or video blackjack if they have it.

There definitely needs to be regulations on gambling but I don't think LL is interested or really wants to be the gaming commission. In the old gambling days in SL there were issues with rigged games but skill games are harder to rig with player input. It can be done but no where as easily as you could say on a slot machine. I suspect LL would boot any potentially rigged game and I am sure they would have done so in the past. Lindens can look at scripts but if they do for games in the past for sure I can't say but they have always had that ability. If someone suspected such a game to be rigged, they would AR it, LL reps would check and send it back if it was infact rigged.

Most popular games on the market are not rigged. Some less popular ones could be if designed by less experienced and lazy scripters. There could be some game addons that are custom made by game places that could be though. But on this issue you have to consider motive. The only motive a game designer would have to rig a machine is so the game may appear more valuable to the people buying the games. For that to be a valid marketing point they would have that in their marketing and documentation otherwise its pointless to rig such a game. Many new skill game when they first come out get play tested. Some game creators may put out data based on players playing the game but anyone that is somewhat wise about owning such games is aware that new game data is rarely reliable. They get played by people new to the game, if the game is different from other games they have not yet developed stategies to play the game better etc.

Custom games or custom game addons for a game place are harder to tell if they are rigged or not because a game owner DOES have motive for games to profit them more. But the smarter game operators know if players never win they simply will not come back.

As for gambling being a scam ... not really outside of things like those old three card monte type scaps where they use slight of hand etc. Anyone that walks into a Vegas casino and thinks they are guaranteed to walk out rich are pretty much have no touch with reality if such a person existed. Occassionally people will think they developed a new fool proof system such as the Martingale system of betting but usually falls into the catagory of a fool and their money.

In real casinos I am suprised about a few things like in vegas how they have free drinks around games and such. But in the end adults should be allowed to be adults and make their own decisions good or bad unless it will enganger others say like drunk driving etc.

When people buy  a lottery ticket even if they tell themselves they are doing so because its for the kids they know the odds are astronomical they will win big. You really can't realistically say that is ok form of gambling and a game of chance or one of skill is not. If someone wanted to help out kids and educated they would just donate to a related cause.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Pluto Shelman wrote:

Hello, LL

 

I have some doubts about the new Skill Gaming Policy.

I'm going to apply as operator since I own a 2-regions gaming place.

From 1st August as an operator I will be allowed to have only transactions with players and on my regions only.

No more gift or other kind of transactions.

 

4 OPERATOR REQUIREMENTS

section c)

 

I am really concerned about this because this will be very very limiting.

 

As You can imagine.... I use not to keep all my money on the main account for security reasons and also.... all us owners have lots of missing payments by game machines.

How could we pay them to players if GIFTs are nomore allowed?

What if I want to buy a new skin for my avi or a building...

 

but what I’m concerned about most is that I need to store my money on another account

for security reasons.

 

Could I use my alts (or bots) for this?

 

Is there a way for us to have a list of verified alts for this purpose.

 

Please consider to review this part of TOS.

I understand your security concerns and not wanting to keep your "bank" on this account.

But your "making good on missed payouts" doesn't make sense.  You are not sending a gift.  You are just correcting a failed payout.  So keep good records.

However now we understand one of the reasons sometimes people come to this Forum complaining they didn't recieve a payout.  There weren't enough $L's in the operator's account to make the pay out.

I'd say that it should be required that an operator always have enough $L's in their account bank to always cover pay outs.

The new policy is odd a operator is not allowed to send "Gift" money becaues of missed pay outs.

I am not sure how long you been in SL but things like object delivery or money transfer failures happens often enough. Most skill game operators have to deal with this often enough and usually does not have to do with how much money is in their account. SL is far from flawless even as something that should be very basic like group chat which has been an unresolved problem for year and years.

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Durandir Darwin wrote:

"Two private sims is not uncommon. There are some out there that are 4 sims large. A couple years ago there were game sims 6 sims big. I think there is at least one that is 6 sims large still.  I am not entirely sure why you were suprised at a two sim sized gaming place. You must not have visited too many I guess.

Some residents for some reason want to think of skill games as problematic activities that have been hiding in the shadows."

 

Skill games have not been hiding in the shadows, the truth is, that most games in SL now are based on chance rather than skill. The "material part" of skill demanded is certainly not to be found in games like Zyngo v8.5 or No Devils. 

Loads of games now even use toppers/winks or other elements, where the amount of the payment to the players is determined by pure chance. Spinning a wheel and getting 2x, 3x or 10x of your payment.

Sorry, i may have to correct myself. Not "chance", as these additional elements are of course scripted to give a much higher probability of giving a 2x than a 10x.

"If the score that triggers a victory is correct, 
Wink always ends up (in the long run) by giving the expected profit to the owner
. "
(Manual of Wink)

Any skill in that? No. 

 

 

 

Zyngo and No Devils are not too terribly different in game play than they have been for years. Zyngo was around for over 7 years. So your implication that it is changed drastically from way back when compared to now is not accurate other than improved scripting. One could argue no devils might be more within TOS compared to zyngo because of the lack of the formentioned point stealing devil. But LL allowed Zyngo for years and has been considered by them to be a game of skill. As I recall it was demonstrated that a more experiernced skilled player can attain on average a higher score than a less experienced player. On first glance it appears to be nothing more than a mixture of Bingo and Slots which the actual skill game its based off of, Slingo, describes itself as. But there are a number of decisions that are made through the game that can make the difference in how you do. One example is an experienced player may or may not complete lines or patterns until they have located the x2 bonus.

I will say toppers are in a grey area as long as they are not paying out less than what they paid in. They are technically within TOS but I can see them having problems and possibly not making it past the approval process. It is a matter of how will the laws look at a game of skill where the pay outs are not fixed to the relative scores.

For example in real life I seen stores that give away random prizes when they spend so much in their store. As far as I can tell the prizes seem about the same value though and they won something just they don't know what it is until they spin. Now if a car was on that wheel that might be a different problem.

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Slot machines in some states like Florida weren't really slot machines, they were Class II bingo machines.

http://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-is-it-fair/

The classification was established to allow tribes to hold bingo games on their reservations, but it stipulated that “electronic aids” could be used to simulate bingo.

That stipulation led to electronic versions of the game of bingo, which eventually took the form of Class II-style slot machines, known as Bingo Games.

Now Class III are allowed, but there have always been workarounds.

People just want to relax and have some fun, most games are L$50 which is $0.20 cents. Every game has a notecard that talks about the skill needed, player decisions at each round, strategy to beat the high score, which sometimes means skipping a round or taking a different type of points, etc. Skilled players win more. Like every game, they should look attractive, but under the hood many of today's Skill Games will be approved because they are under the definitions.

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Pluto Shelman wrote:

Hello, LL

 

I have some doubts about the new Skill Gaming Policy.

I'm going to apply as operator since I own a 2-regions gaming place.

From 1st August as an operator I will be allowed to have only transactions with players and on my regions only.

No more gift or other kind of transactions.

 

4 OPERATOR REQUIREMENTS

section c)

 

I am really concerned about this because this will be very very limiting.

 

As You can imagine.... I use not to keep all my money on the main account for security reasons and also.... all us owners have lots of missing payments by game machines.

How could we pay them to players if GIFTs are nomore allowed?

What if I want to buy a new skin for my avi or a building...

 

but what I’m concerned about most is that I need to store my money on another account

for security reasons.

 

Could I use my alts (or bots) for this?

 

Is there a way for us to have a list of verified alts for this purpose.

 

Please consider to review this part of TOS.

I understand your security concerns and not wanting to keep your "bank" on this account.

But your "making good on missed payouts" doesn't make sense.  You are not sending a gift.  You are just correcting a failed payout.  So keep good records.

However now we understand one of the reasons sometimes people come to this Forum complaining they didn't recieve a payout.  There weren't enough $L's in the operator's account to make the pay out.

I'd say that it should be required that an operator always have enough $L's in their account bank to always cover pay outs.

The new policy is odd a operator is not allowed to send "Gift" money becaues of missed pay outs.

I am not sure how long you been in SL but things like object delivery or money transfer failures happens often enough. Most skill game operators have to deal with this often enough and usually does not have to do with how much money is in their account. SL is far from flawless even as something that should be very basic like group chat which has been an unresolved problem for year and years.

The word "gift" does not occur in the Policy statement or the FAQ.

It doesn't occur until you get to the application (had to do a screen shots on this).

skill gift.JPG

It refers to the operator recieving a gift, not giving one.

However I can see how another clause could be a problem.

skill gift 2.JPG

 

So script the game so the operator can resend the failed payment through the game.

Lastly, I did not say it was the only reason payments fail, I said it would/could be 'one reason.'

I've been in SL long enough to know all about failed transactions.  A big hint would be I have a last name.  :)

Regardless, correcting a failed transaction is not "sending a gift."  Those are two different things.

 

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I believe in California electronics are not allowed with the exception of displaying the drawn numbers for Charitable Bingo. But thats for charity games like churches, schools etc.

Also in Californa tribes can have full casinos. Given reservations are considered to be Federal land and operate as their own state I am not sure how this would even be an issue in Florida at least if its on reservations.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Sorina Garrigus wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Pluto Shelman wrote:

Hello, LL

 

I have some doubts about the new Skill Gaming Policy.

I'm going to apply as operator since I own a 2-regions gaming place.

From 1st August as an operator I will be allowed to have only transactions with players and on my regions only.

No more gift or other kind of transactions.

 

4 OPERATOR REQUIREMENTS

section c)

 

I am really concerned about this because this will be very very limiting.

 

As You can imagine.... I use not to keep all my money on the main account for security reasons and also.... all us owners have lots of missing payments by game machines.

How could we pay them to players if GIFTs are nomore allowed?

What if I want to buy a new skin for my avi or a building...

 

but what I’m concerned about most is that I need to store my money on another account

for security reasons.

 

Could I use my alts (or bots) for this?

 

Is there a way for us to have a list of verified alts for this purpose.

 

Please consider to review this part of TOS.

I understand your security concerns and not wanting to keep your "bank" on this account.

But your "making good on missed payouts" doesn't make sense.  You are not sending a gift.  You are just correcting a failed payout.  So keep good records.

However now we understand one of the reasons sometimes people come to this Forum complaining they didn't recieve a payout.  There weren't enough $L's in the operator's account to make the pay out.

I'd say that it should be required that an operator always have enough $L's in their account bank to always cover pay outs.

The new policy is odd a operator is not allowed to send "Gift" money becaues of missed pay outs.

I am not sure how long you been in SL but things like object delivery or money transfer failures happens often enough. Most skill game operators have to deal with this often enough and usually does not have to do with how much money is in their account. SL is far from flawless even as something that should be very basic like group chat which has been an unresolved problem for year and years.

The word "gift" does not occur in the Policy statement or the FAQ.

It doesn't occur until you get to the application (had to do a screen shots on this).

skill gift.JPG

It refers to the operator recieving a gift, not giving one.

However I can see how another clause could be a problem.

skill gift 2.JPG

 

So script the game so the operator can resend the failed payment through the game.

Lastly, I did not say it was the only reason payments fail, I said it would/could be 'one reason.'

I've been in SL long enough to know all about failed transactions.  A big hint would be I have a last name. 
:)

Regardless, correcting a failed transaction is not "sending a gift."  Those are two different things.

 

Operators not being able to gift is something that came up with operators that were applying. If its in the FAQ or policy or not I don't know but it is something that comes up when you apply as an operator. But its possible there is some confusion on that issue because more than a few operators were concerned about having issues not being able to pay out a failed transaction. But as I read it gifting FROM an operator is allowed in limited situations. Basically tranfer of funds to people they may do business or provide services with. I suppose they would have to update their list every single time there is a failed transaction due to a fault of SL hiccups

Under limited circumstances, an Operator Account will be allowed to

 make Linden Dollar payments to Second Life residents who provide

 services to an Operator for the management and operation of its Skill

 Gaming Region. Provided that an Operator discloses all such Second

 Life residents to Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application

 process, such transactions shall not constitute a violation of these

 Terms. The list of Second Life residents who shall be allowed to receive

 Linden Dollars from an Operator Account must be reasonable in

 scope. Unreasonable requests could jeopardize approval of the

 application. The Operator is responsible for updating its list as needed,

 in the manner provided through the Skill Gaming application process.

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:


"Zyngo and No Devils are not too terribly different in game play than they have been for years. Zyngo was around for over 7 years. So your implication that it is changed drastically from way back when compared to now is not accurate other than improved scripting."


 

When the hammer fell before on gambling (JP Linden, autoplay, devils stealing points), Aargle quickly came up with a different version of Zyngo, v8.0 (Zyngo Hunt). And that one was different from other Zyngo versions: Special symbols could be found by deducting them (skill element), clicking wrong numbers resulted in a loss of points, letters (Z,Y,N,G and O) gave points a different value (each letter appeared 20 times in a game), no devils to substract points from your total score, the right order in filling a line, pattern or the board was important and so on. Sounds complicated? Then it might contain a higher percentage of skill.

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:


...
But LL allowed Zyngo for years and has been considered by them to be a game of skill. As I recall it was demonstrated that a more experiernced skilled player can attain on average a higher score than a less experienced player....

_______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Do you know how Aargle defined games of skill?

"A game of skill isn't a game of skill because skill makes you win; instead, it's a game of skill because your failure to apply skill prevents you from winning."

In one RL lottery in my country you are allowed to mark a maximum of 6 numbers. If i mark more numbers because i'm missing the skill to count, my lottery ticket will be invalid. Failure to apply skill here (choosing 6 instead of 7 numbers) prevents me from (having the chance of) winning. So lottery is a skill game?

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Durandir Darwin wrote:

"But LL allowed Zyngo for years and has been considered by them to be a game of skill. As I recall it was demonstrated that a more experiernced skilled player can attain on average a higher score than a less experienced player."

 

Do you know how Aargle defined games of skill?

"A game of skill isn't a game of skill because skill makes you win; instead, it's a game of skill because your failure to apply skill prevents you from winning."

In one RL lottery in my country you are allowed to mark a maximum of 6 numbers. If i mark more numbers because i'm missing the skill to count, my lottery ticket will be invalid. Failure to apply skill here (choosing 6 instead of 7 numbers) prevents me from (having the chance of) winning. So lottery is a skill game?

This kind of "game of skill" is, of course, completely different from something like backgammon or many card games, where the rules are well known and the random element is clear to all, and where the skill lies in developing and adapting strategies to use the cards you're dealt or the dice you throw to defeat your opponent.

It's going to be very interesting to see how many of these "games of skill" survive the requirement that a lawyer provide a reasoned opinion that they're games of skill according to how that term is defined by the jurisdiction in which s/he practices.

 

 

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Im really glad to see LL finally take action on the illegal gambling that has been in SL for the last years.

99% of the games on offer in SL are GAMBLING, minimal skill invovled if any at all. This should have stopped years ago.

I just laugh reading this thread... operators so concerned with getting their licences.. do you really think there is any games currently in SL that a competant lawyer is going to give a reasoned legal opinion to say that the game in question is skill based, with only a very minimal element of chance to it?.. are they F**k.

I personally am looking forward to 1st Aug.. got my list of games to go out AR'ing.. yes sad i know lol

Fishing games... 7 seas, Go Fishin, Fish Hunt... Pay bait entry, press auto cast, chance of win. no skill

Breedable Pets, paid food entry, very minimal skill in pairing pets.. gives offspring with potential L$ value.

and of course every  sploder and no devil style machine i can find..

 

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