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phaedra Exonar wrote:

I'd personally would rather master a simple tool then try to learn a complex one that's going to be out dated every couple of years and have to start over again with ever being a master of it. 

I think this is a misconception. Mesh hasn't actually changed since it was first used. Yes, there are always new ways to do it, but those are good to learn because it makes you faster, hence more productive. Animation is basically the same, but now we have more easier to use motion capture systems. When talking about how 3ds Max, Maya, and even Blender are constantly updated, these are usually new ways to do hard things in those programs, like fracturing/breaking items, or better water simulations. When something like mesh is changed, we are talking about modifiers and things like that. No relearning going on hear. Even when Blender changed it's UI, it was all about making the program better, and faster. It's literally a weekends learning how things got moved around, and now you can do things faster and better.

I started out in 3DS Max 8, and I never actually bought any other version. Even today, I can still use it if I want to. Blender is just a much better option for me, at least I think so. I always stay up to date with it, and always read the release notes, but I rarely get tripped up by any differences.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

I think the main difference between your perspective and mine is that you are a "professional" creator who expects to make money from his creations. Even when I had a store in which I "sold" books I'd made, I never expected to do that.

There could, potentially, be different levels of tools made available: one sophisticated set for creators such as yourself, and another simple, primitive-based set (even if prims are only the starting point) for "amateur" or casual builders.

The key point is that I'd hate to see building in the new VW become so technically complicated that "ordinary" residents lose the opportunity to become creative as well. That sense of "ANYONE can build!" was part of the magic of early SL, and very much in keeping with "Your World, Your Imagination."

I pretty much agree with you, for the most part. What I would like to stress tho, is that building a complex item in SL, is almost exactly the same as building a complex thing in Blender. You are doing the same thing, but now you can manipulate every single vertices. It's just 1 step up. This is why I showed the bicycle, as it is just a bunch of cylinders, torus, and cubes, with a little bit of manipulation. I've made a bicycle with prims, and now with mesh. It was basically the same, just with mesh being more detailed.

I might be considered a professional creator by some, and I might even fit that definition, but I started mostly in SL just like everyone else here. I have no credentials. In my eyes, I'm still a baby, and have much more to learn. I got most of the mesh and animation stuff down, but I still need to learn more on video, effects, lighting, and compositing in Blender.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

phaedra Exonar wrote:

LaskyaClaren wrote:

phaedra Exonar wrote:

I love what you can do with mesh, but I think it's had a big impact on the diversity of items available in SL, there's fewer people that can build with mesh. 
There's such a flood of mesh items on the marketplace it's hard for shops selling non mesh to be seen in the marketplace listings,  many of my favorite shops have closed down,  the problem being no one making mesh has filled in a lot of these small subculture markets that are shrinking.  Who really wan't to take the time to build mesh for a small market, and even if they do the number of items produced in a the same about of time will be less. 

If SL2.0 dosen't make making mesh easier inworld then SL might be the place of choice for the hobbyist builder again as more mesh builders go the SL2.0 

I agree with the first bolded statement completely.

The second one is an interesting thought. Will SL 1.0 become the poor sibling of SL 2.0, as the best creators leave it for greener fields in the new VW?

SL had a good economy before mesh, minecraft has sold over 15,964,783 copy's,  19,187 in the last 24 hours.  There's a huge market for people who what to build with simple tools.  Simple dosen't have to mean low quality results, look at what's been done with paint brushes, and you can still buy new paint brushes today.  No way to tell which way it might go, but LL having 2 worlds we might see a shift of the types of creators between the 2 worlds.  I'd personally would rather master a simple tool then try to learn a complex one that's going to be out dated every couple of years and have to start over again with ever being a master of it.  I like art that pushes the limits if it's medium, with digital art those limits are rarely reached before the limits are expanded.  I find pushing the limits is where the most interesting things happen. 

Yep, I think I agree with all of this.

It should, though, be possible to have reasonably easy-to-use but effective building tools, even for mesh, in the new VW as well. After all, there are currently available on the marketplace tools that will automate the conversion of prims to mesh. A built-in version of something like that for the viewer shouldn't be too hard to accomplish, I'd have thought.

It is already in some viewers, like Singularity. You can export your prim build as a mesh. (If you are the owner of the sculpt maps, you can export sculpts as mesh, too.)  

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Perrie Juran wrote:

LaskyaClaren wrote:

Careful segregation of content is definitely a good thing, because it enables choice by the user.

My first real exposure to Dolcet in Second Life happened in the pre-Zindra days, before the "Adult" classification was created. I was exploring a nude beach with a rating of "Mature." It was just a nude beach -- there were no sex pose balls or anything of that type -- but it directly abutted a Dolcet sim, owned by the same person. Right on the border of the Dolcet sim, mere feet from the nude beach was an extremely graphic and violent Dolcet machine, and there were others within easy viewing of the beach. I was appalled -- and still am, in fact -- that a visitor seeking nothing more than a nude beach sim could be exposed so casually and inadvertently to that kind of representation of sexual violence and graphic dismemberment.

The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could 
happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. 

When the Adult rating was created, I argued that it was too broad, and that a distinction needed to be made between violence and sexuality. Unfortunately, I think, North Americans in particular tend to be 
horrified by sexuality than by violence, so that particular plea fell on deaf ears.

"The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could still happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. "

Actually I think you are (partially) wrong here.  A nude beach (nudist) with no adult activity can be rated Moderate.  But many do set nudist beaches with no other activity as "Adult."  But that is not required.

Dolcet, etc is Adult.

But then you get into a possibly grey area on Moderate land with Dolcet if people are complying with the "Behind Closed Doors" policy in the

i just add on here. bc it address what Laskya is mentioning and you also


i think where it gets complicated is when we put to fine a grading on things. The practical answer to this in the RL is classification by type. And then bc we all got our own views on how/why different kinds/types of content should/can be classified then we delegate this task to an appointed group of people. Put some laws round this. Not only on content but also the processes the appointees must follow. and also an appeals process for the creators who might feel that their content has been classified more narrowly than they believe is warranted

am not sure that in a private-owned VW that is desirable to go down this road to this degree

I think that with SL is pretty much right. Right meaning manageable. Is some broad classifications/standards/groupings of content. And people are expected to use their mentals/commonsense and not be dickheads about it

basically people get banned from SL for being dickheads


even nudity on G sims. by example

if use our commonsense (and LL enforcers use theirs as well when investigating these matters) then is not inappropriate in our own G rated home to get nekkid in all cases

like if get some demo skins. The place most appropriate to check them out is our own SL home. Pull down the blinds (parcel visibility) and we good

nobody ever gets banned for doing this in G. And nor should they be just bc: No Nekkie

however if run round in public on G wearing a demo skins nekkid then the person is being a dickhead

if dont have any home of our own and jump on the posestand (or go in a changing room) in a skin shop and that skin shop is on a G sim and get nekkid trying on the demoes then by the law of commonsense we behaving appropriately

If get off the posestand (or leave the changing room) and run round the shop nekkid in a demo then the person is being a dickhead

maybe not get banned by LL from SL for running round nekkid in a skin shop but keep it up and the sim owner will ban them from the sim. When go waaah!!! then sim owner goes: I not ban you by the Law of Eminent Sim Domain ok. I ban you by the Law of Dickheads


cant make a rule that all skin shops cannot be on G sims. bc under 18s need/want to buy skins also. Which they wont be able to do if is no skin shops on G. Or if is no G rating available to skin makers on MP


can take Laskya's point about Violence tho

i think the question is: Is it necessary for under 18s to be exposed to violence? Not whether is desirable/undesirable or even a question of choice or maturity or freedom even on their part. But simply: Is it necessary?

the commonsense answer to this is: No. Is not necesary. Being exposed to violence as a child or underage young person is not necessary. Not in a modern civilised society which is what we have in the RL (most of us anyways)

for Adults then is a different question: Is it necessary for a adult to be informed about the content prior to them accessing it? In this case the commonsense answer to this is: Yes. It is necessary

So I agree with Laskya's general point

A (adult classification) can be segmented broadly into 2 camps. A meaning all general Adult behaviours. AV meaning Adult with Graphic Violence

so. G. A. AV

the distinction between G and A is quite clear. This clearly seperates Adult-specific behaviours from General behaviours for all. The distinction between A and AV helps the adults to make prior determinations about where they go

and the Law of Commonsense and the Law of Dickheads still applies

basically with G A AV instead of G M A we have narrowed the segmentation in a more commonsense and practical way. Without introducing any more or less restrictions on Adults. The effective new restriction is on RL children and underage young persons engaging in violence or being exposed to adult sexual behaviours on the platform



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Poetic humor from a bit in The Music Man. It reminds me of the SL 2.0 arguments.


Cash for the merchandise, cash for the button hooks
Cash for the cotton goods, cash for the hard goods…

Cash for the noggins and the piggins and the frikins
Cash for the hogshead, cask and demijohn.
Cash for the crackers and the pickles and the flypaper…

Ya can talk all ya want but it’s different than it was.

No it ain’t, no it ain’t, but you gotta know the territory…

It’s the Model T Ford made the trouble, made the people wanna go,
wanna get … wanna get up and go seven, eight, nine, ten, twelve,
fourteen, twenty-two, twenty-three miles to the county seat…

Who’s gonna patronize a little bitty two-by-four kinda store anymore?…

Gone with the hogshead cask and demijohn,
Gone with the sugar barrel, pickle barrel, milk pan


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You touched precisely on point. Power of creation. I think that was what really made the only SL and this is gradually lost. I posted this topic as a warning about the future of SL. I think that if not solved some problems and some ways to modify the SL year will reach either the SL2. Sorry for the catastrophic tone, do not want to promote defeatism but I can not be lenient!

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  Each Year the Second Life Community celebrates the birthday of the Second Life Virtual World. This years event (SL11B) was conducted from June 22 - 29, 2014. The Theme was "The empires of the future are the empires of the mind."
an opportunity to look forward; to imagine where we are headed..
  Supporting that forward looking theme I created an exhibit that allowed visitors to "vote" for changes they would like to see. The subjects were chosen based on informal discussions with other Avatars as well as ideas submitted at the exhibit.
   Below are the results of that two week survey. I recorded ~500 visitors and 1,690 votes. I perceive the results as positive, the top vote getter was "I Love Second Life". The remainder of the votes say "give us more and better".

GeeJAnn Blackadder (Gee)

VOTES    ... NAME ...
152       I Love Second Life
132       Land Costs
131       NO LAG
121       Inventory Management Tools
120       More Prims per Sim
117       Inventory Backup System
93         Join More Groups
88          Improve Control of Griefers
85        Folders in Boxes
85        Improve Build Tools
81        Avatar Last Name
74         Control Content Theft
70         Avatar Appearance
54        Clothing Management
53         System AO
52         New LL Avatar Body
50         Intellectual Property Rights
47         Improve Media Tools
45        Better L$ Exchange Rate
41        Second Life 2.0
36         Land Zoning
32         More Profile Picks
15         Permanent Under Garments
Stations 23, Votes 1690.

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"Mesh, however, changed all that. There's a lot of crappy mesh out there of course, but mesh has, overall, undoubtedly improved the appearance of Second Life."

"Mesh" is highly overrated. If it "improved" anything in a visual way this judgement is based on subjective taste, not facts. What really counts are concurrency, user numbers and the profits. From the business point of view "mesh" is a total failure. Neither concurrency nor user numbers improved, the grid still is shrinking as it was shrinking before the introduction of the format. Another fact is that Second Life boomed and peaked long before Linden Lab came up with off-world formats like sculpts and mesh.

Everyone can conclude everything, but in the end nothing Linden Lab tried over the past six years was overly helpful or successful in regards of expansion. SL, at best, stagnates in it´s niche, like it or not. While over the same past six years something like Minecraft, which uses a simple user interface and simple cubes, and static 3D chatrooms like IMVU stepped in with much more success.

My conclusion is that technology and formats, even the "best", cannot replace a basical, specific "I am here for doing this" customer declaration of will. Second Life, as is, actually serves too many niches in a niche. And Linden Lab tries to serve the needs of ALL these very different customer groups, so that it´s something like an ongoing compromise, where everything works somehow but nothing really works perfectly. All this for tremendous development and maintainance cost for Linden Lab.

No wonders that the company thinks of a different platform with by far more specific and stripped down focus on possible user activity. I do not expect, any kind of "Second Life Two" wet dream becoming true. This would make no sense, neither in a technological nor a business way. Whatever the thing they work on will be, it will not be even close to what Second Life is.

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