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I recently read the news of changes in Second Life
In bold letters "Second Life will be totally redone"
http://thenextweb.com/dd/2014/06/24/linden-labs-building-new-second-life-scratch-woo-new-users/

Coincidentally I was commenting to some students the degradation process that SL has suffered and wear due to wrong path in my view and decision making from offices without practical visions that should leave the metaverse itself;

Resistance to change by the Linden Lab?

Insistence on maintaining an unfriendly viwer The viewer since official release of version 2, was not well received by users that have proved somewhat receptive to the new viwer that despite bringing great internal improvements opted for more exotic ways of interface. The decision to use pull down menus complexes (which unfold in more menus) instead of simplicity and efficiency of the pie menu is one of the most obvious examples. Not to mention options that were almost hidden as teleportation, access to media, etc..

Understandably the Lindem Lab resists change while the alternative viwers gain more space.

But of all the problems that most struck me were the changes brought about by something that alone should cause a revolution in Second Life. The Mesh.

But for some inexplicable reason took totally different paths to desirable even to the point of technological regression. Today due to attachments to the body creating products is painted out instead of patterned clothes, like the early days of Second Life. Look regressed 11 years!

SL What is most important, what did he do to be so attractive and so successful?

In my opinion the SL began as a giant chat room and has evolved to a fantastic world with visual immersion now coming to the Oculus Rift. The key to success was to create a world where there were no limits of creation.

Sorry to say but today I see stores dictating standards for glasses, hands, legs, breasts, etc.. Do not condemn the entrepreneurship of these tenants. They are occupying the space that was originally intended by Mehes (which should facilitate the adaptation of shapes Avatar) but also for some other reason could not even coming so close to success (mesh deformer).
The SL is coming to a crossroads where the only options are: A cosmetic change aimed at maintaining the status quo!
Or a profound change from the inside out from his strange and suffered so revolutionary. I believe that if you choose the wrong way and he had suffered to enter history as a game that marked the beginning of something new in the history of games or Be "creating your own world by the hands of the user himself!
I want to leave my personal opinion clear and error-prone (the truth is not mine and I do not think that belongs to nobody) but with faith that the SL lasts for another 11, 22, 33 years!

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LL chose option C do both, they are working on a next generation platform seprate fom SL, and are continuing to develop SL with no plans to shut it down.

The best infromation on what LL is doing with SL can be found here:

The recording of the Phoenix Firestorm Q&A meeting with Oz and Pete linden is now available.

http://www.firestormviewer.org/

 

The next generation platform sounds like it's taking the revolutionary approach while SL is more evolutionary, but all ready some of the work on the next generation platform is finding it's way back in to SL.  The new platform is so early in development, other then the news articles from last week and Ebbe's comments in the forums and at the last TVP meeting, every thing is pretty much just speculation at this point.

I think LL having both platforms will be good.  To keep competitive they need the next generation platform, and keeping SL with all it's content is equally important.  I see a future where many people will enjoy the best of both worlds for many years to come. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

LL chose option C do both, they are working on a next generation platform seprate fom SL, and are continuing to develop SL with
no plans to shut it down
.


They have actually aid they will shut it down as soon as it becomes unprofitable.

Which is likely to be sooner rather than later as the SL economy shrinks.

As users gradually work out that they are buying stuff which will be useless in SL2.

They are already taking steps to keep it profitable by considerably reducing the number of developers working on it.

Father "which means that even less will get done on it than before" Jim

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A lot depends on the land barons and what they do.

 

If the larger barons make the leap to the new second life, then they will likely abandon their holdings in the old one, so that they are not in direct competition with themselves. It will become in their interest for second life to shut down, so that their customers move with them.

 

If the new platform is popular, then the barons will have to move anyway, triggering the above process.

 

Basically, once a decent new version of second life appears, the old one will die pretty fast.

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DeMarco Galthie wrote:

Sorry to say but today I see stores dictating standards for glasses, hands, legs, breasts, etc.. 

 

There's some danger that this thread will become yet another redundant discussion of the pros-and-cons of LL's announcement about the forthcoming new VW that they are developing.

However, this statement struck me as particularly interesting.

When the internet got its start in the 90s, one of the things that made it so successful, I'd argue, is that the basic code to build a web page so simple and easy to create that anyone -- even the proverbial teen working on her basement computer -- could build one.

Before mesh was introduced into Second Life, much the same could be said fo this virtual world: the basic tools for building and  creation were, for the most part, in-world, and were (mostly) pretty intuitive and easy to learn. One might need to use Photoshop or GIMP, and to create avatar animations, one needed external software, but generally speaking pretty much anyone could learn the rudiments of building with a few hours of work. Sculpties were about as complicated as it got, and there were even in-world tools available for creating those.

Mesh, however, changed all that. There's a lot of crappy mesh out there of course, but mesh has, overall, undoubtedly improved the appearance of Second Life. It has done so, however, at the cost of making state-of-the-in-world-art of creation inaccessible to most casual users. I think SL has become a little impoverished, and a great deal more commercial, because of this.

I'll readily concede that builds by enthusiastic amateurs (such as myself) are not up to the standards of those created by more tech-savvy and engaged professional or quasi-professional creators, but it's still true, I think, that SL's capacity to make creation available to anyone was a really vital part of the early success of Second Life.

A new virtual world that does not also extend that capacity to all of its users will be a less creative, less interesting world. SL 2.0 needs to include easy-to-use in-world building tools for all of its users, or it will be a much diminished place, in my view.

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Chronometria wrote:

A lot depends on the land barons and what they do.

 

If the larger barons make the leap to the new second life, then they will likely abandon their holdings in the old one, so that they are not in direct competition with themselves. It will become in their interest for second life to shut down, so that their customers move with them.

 

If the new platform is popular, then the barons will have to move anyway, triggering the above process.

 

Basically, once a decent new version of second life appears, the old one will die pretty fast.

Why would land barons abandon their holdings in SL as long as they're making money? They're not in competition with themselves by having land in both worlds -- they can potentially make money in both. The time to leave is when they stop making a profit.

 

 

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Parhelion Palou wrote:


Chronometria wrote:

A lot depends on the land barons and what they do.

 

If the larger barons make the leap to the new second life, then they will likely abandon their holdings in the old one, so that they are not in direct competition with themselves. It will become in their interest for second life to shut down, so that their customers move with them.

 

If the new platform is popular, then the barons will have to move anyway, triggering the above process.

 

Basically, once a decent new version of second life appears, the old one will die pretty fast.

Why would land barons abandon their holdings in SL as long as they're making money? They're not in competition with themselves by having land in both worlds -- they can potentially make money in both. The time to leave is when they stop making a profit.

 

 

A major part of the market in SL2 will be current SL residents. They will be the first to be aware of it, and may (if what has been discussed so far is correct) be able to transfer elements of their current accounts (names and money, at the very least) to it. Many of us are unlikely to have extra money to spend in the new SL. Money we spend there will be money we can't afford to spend in SL, and vice-versa. So if there's any kind of land market, the two worlds will be in competition for existing residents' money.

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madjim wrote:


Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

LL chose option C do both, they are working on a next generation platform separate from SL, and are continuing to develop SL with
no plans to shut it down
.


They have actually aid they will shut it down as soon as it becomes unprofitable.

Which is likely to be sooner rather than later as the SL economy shrinks.

As users gradually work out that they are buying stuff which will be useless in SL2.

They are already taking steps to keep it profitable by considerably reducing the number of developers working on it.

Father "which means that even less will get done on it than before" Jim

SL was profitable in 2006 to get down to that level of land again would be around a 90% decrease, I don't see that happening for years. I think one scenario that most people who are in SL only, don't think about is that some people will chose to use both platforms, as many people already do with SL, inworlds, kitely, and the other open sims.  I'm active in several worlds I don't see this as a replacement of SL but an expansion of places I can go.  For people who own a lot of inventory in SL why give it up? For merchants why sell in only one market.  For DJ's why not DJ at a club on both platforms at the same time and have a larger audience, for some one with a nice big house in SL keep your house in SL and go visit the new platform or even get a second vacation home there. 

No where in the Q&A with OZ does he say that LL has considerably reducing the number of developers working on SL.  Reduced yes but to the level OZ thought would be effective, add to that that he can still get more resources as need for bigger projects, and that work on the new platform has all ready been used for SL.  Considering this shift has all ready happened and they have still been able to keep updating SL should be a good sign. 

I all so liked that OZ and his whole development team are working on SL by choice.  Oz has a good relation ship with the TPVs and the next generation platform will not be open source to start, so that leaves a good opportunity for TVPs to keep improving their SL viewers.  Many people are more loyal to their viewer of choice then they are to a platform, some people will stay in SL just because of that.

 

 

 

 

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Parhelion Palou wrote:


Chronometria wrote:

A lot depends on the land barons and what they do.

 

If the larger barons make the leap to the new second life, then they will likely abandon their holdings in the old one, so that they are not in direct competition with themselves. It will become in their interest for second life to shut down, so that their customers move with them.

 

If the new platform is popular, then the barons will have to move anyway, triggering the above process.

 

Basically, once a decent new version of second life appears, the old one will die pretty fast.

Why would land barons abandon their holdings in SL as long as they're making money? They're not in competition with themselves by having land in both worlds -- they can potentially make money in both. The time to leave is when they stop making a profit.

 

 

Add to that, this could be good for land barrons, people may feel safer renting then buying new land now that the news of the new platform is out.

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Is it possible that Linden Lab will use the new SL as an opportunity to create a fully PG rated world? In order to appeal to a larger customer base? It would certainly make the continued existence of the current SL more plausible.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


DeMarco Galthie wrote:

Sorry to say but today I see stores dictating standards for glasses, hands, legs, breasts, etc.. 

 

There's some danger that this thread will become yet another redundant discussion of the pros-and-cons of LL's announcement about the forthcoming new VW that they are developing.

However, this statement struck me as particularly interesting.

When the internet got its start in the 90s, one of the things that made it so successful, I'd argue, is that the basic code to build a web page so simple and easy to create that anyone -- even the proverbial teen working on her basement computer -- could build one.

Before mesh was introduced into Second Life, much the same could be said fo this virtual world: the basic tools for building and  creation were, for the most part, in-world, and were (mostly) pretty intuitive and easy to learn. One might need to use Photoshop or GIMP, and to create avatar animations, one needed external software, but generally speaking pretty much anyone could learn the rudiments of building with a few hours of work. Sculpties were about as complicated as it got, and there were even in-world tools available for creating those.

Mesh, however, changed all that. There's a lot of crappy mesh out there of course, but mesh has, overall, undoubtedly improved the appearance of Second Life. It has done so, however, at the cost of making state-of-the-in-world-art of creation inaccessible to most casual users. I think SL has become a little impoverished, and a great deal more commercial, because of this.

I'll readily concede that builds by enthusiastic amateurs (such as myself) are not up to the standards of those created by more tech-savvy and engaged professional or quasi-professional creators, but it's still true, I think, that SL's capacity to make creation available to 
anyone
was a really vital part of the early success of Second Life.

A new virtual world that does not also extend that capacity to all of its users will be a less creative, less interesting world. SL 2.0 needs to include easy-to-use in-world building tools for 
all 
of its users, or it will be a much diminished place, in my view.

I love what you can do with mesh, but I think it's had a big impact on the diversity of items available in SL, there's fewer people that can build with mesh.  There's such a flood of mesh items on the marketplace it's hard for shops selling non mesh to be seen in the marketplace listings,  many of my favorite shops have closed down,  the problem being no one making mesh has filled in a lot of these small subculture markets that are shrinking.  Who really wan't to take the time to build mesh for a small market, and even if they do the number of items produced in a the same about of time will be less. 

If SL2.0 dosen't make making mesh easier inworld then SL might be the place of choice for the hobbyist builder again as more mesh builders go the SL2.0 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


DeMarco Galthie wrote:

Sorry to say but today I see stores dictating standards for glasses, hands, legs, breasts, etc.. 

 

There's some danger that this thread will become yet another redundant discussion of the pros-and-cons of LL's announcement about the forthcoming new VW that they are developing.

However, this statement struck me as particularly interesting.

When the internet got its start in the 90s, one of the things that made it so successful, I'd argue, is that the basic code to build a web page so simple and easy to create that anyone -- even the proverbial teen working on her basement computer -- could build one.

Before mesh was introduced into Second Life, much the same could be said fo this virtual world: the basic tools for building and  creation were, for the most part, in-world, and were (mostly) pretty intuitive and easy to learn. One might need to use Photoshop or GIMP, and to create avatar animations, one needed external software, but generally speaking pretty much anyone could learn the rudiments of building with a few hours of work. Sculpties were about as complicated as it got, and there were even in-world tools available for creating those.

Mesh, however, changed all that. There's a lot of crappy mesh out there of course, but mesh has, overall, undoubtedly improved the appearance of Second Life. It has done so, however, at the cost of making state-of-the-in-world-art of creation inaccessible to most casual users. I think SL has become a little impoverished, and a great deal more commercial, because of this.

I'll readily concede that builds by enthusiastic amateurs (such as myself) are not up to the standards of those created by more tech-savvy and engaged professional or quasi-professional creators, but it's still true, I think, that SL's capacity to make creation available to 
anyone
was a really vital part of the early success of Second Life.

A new virtual world that does not also extend that capacity to all of its users will be a less creative, less interesting world. SL 2.0 needs to include easy-to-use in-world building tools for 
all 
of its users, or it will be a much diminished place, in my view.

I've built web pages in the 1990's with HTML editors - it was a royal pain. My current web site looks much better and I built it using a WYSIWYG website builder I got for a few dollars at Wal-Mart despite my not knowing a cascading style sheet from a piece of pie.

And in my opinion the building commands in SL are only "easy and intuitive" if you've never used anything else; particularly anything that made sense. I've been able to wrap my head around Autocad 12, whose interface has the user-friendliness of a pit bull with a toothache, and yet when I got into SL I told a friend, "Okay, we can travel from one end of this world to the other in a blink of an eye, but its taking me five minutes to put a slice of watermelon into a bowl."

I do think there should be easy building tools in the new world, but when I hear people lamenting about how it was better in the old days with everyone having equal tools it smacks of Harrison Bergeron to me.

 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


DeMarco Galthie wrote:

Sorry to say but today I see stores dictating standards for glasses, hands, legs, breasts, etc.. 

 

There's some danger that this thread will become yet another redundant discussion of the pros-and-cons of LL's announcement about the forthcoming new VW that they are developing.

However, this statement struck me as particularly interesting.

When the internet got its start in the 90s, one of the things that made it so successful, I'd argue, is that the basic code to build a web page so simple and easy to create that anyone -- even the proverbial teen working on her basement computer -- could build one.

Before mesh was introduced into Second Life, much the same could be said fo this virtual world: the basic tools for building and  creation were, for the most part, in-world, and were (mostly) pretty intuitive and easy to learn. One might need to use Photoshop or GIMP, and to create avatar animations, one needed external software, but generally speaking pretty much anyone could learn the rudiments of building with a few hours of work. Sculpties were about as complicated as it got, and there were even in-world tools available for creating those.

Mesh, however, changed all that. There's a lot of crappy mesh out there of course, but mesh has, overall, undoubtedly improved the appearance of Second Life. It has done so, however, at the cost of making state-of-the-in-world-art of creation inaccessible to most casual users. I think SL has become a little impoverished, and a great deal more commercial, because of this.

I'll readily concede that builds by enthusiastic amateurs (such as myself) are not up to the standards of those created by more tech-savvy and engaged professional or quasi-professional creators, but it's still true, I think, that SL's capacity to make creation available to 
anyone
was a really vital part of the early success of Second Life.

A new virtual world that does not also extend that capacity to all of its users will be a less creative, less interesting world. SL 2.0 needs to include easy-to-use in-world building tools for 
all 
of its users, or it will be a much diminished place, in my view.

I've built web pages in the 1990's with HTML editors - it was a royal pain. My current web site looks much better and I built it using a WYSIWYG website builder I got for a few dollars at Wal-Mart despite my not knowing a cascading style sheet from a piece of pie.

And in my opinion the building commands in SL are only "easy and intuitive" if you've never used anything else; particularly anything that made
sense
. I've been able to wrap my head around Autocad 12, whose interface has the user-friendliness of a pit bull with a toothache, and yet when I got into SL I told a friend, "Okay, we can travel from one end of this world to the other in a blink of an eye, but its taking me five minutes to put a slice of watermelon into a bowl."

I do think there should be easy building tools in the new world, but when I hear people lamenting about how it was better in the old days with everyone having equal tools it smacks of Harrison Bergeron to me.

 

If any thing we need more diverse tool because most mesh tools are hard to learn, mostly because they tend to be designed to do everything in one package,  I don't need to make a whole movie with blender.  A lot of people learn to build for the first time in SL for fun, did you learn Autocad 12 for fun on your own?

What I miss really is building inworld, how fun is an all mesh speed building contest?

 

"on your mark, get set, go AFK, and be back in half an hour with your finished item"  good luck getting any thing even slightly complex uvmapped and textured in that amount of time. 

 

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Is it possible that Linden Lab will use the new SL as an opportunity to create a fully PG rated world? In order to appeal to a larger customer base? It would certainly make the continued existence of the current SL more plausible.

i think is not going to be a fully G rated world

it will be segmented like SL is now. If anything the segmentation will be narrower than what it is now. Here is G. Here is A. The two shall not meet

It will be more predictable. I think there will be no grey areas like M

as adult grownup persons we will be able to move between the G and A segments as we like. Fully able to predict what content and experiences we will be exposed to in either. As adult grownups with the mentals to match, we will be expected to be able to discern the difference and understand why that is. And why it needs to be that way. If the betterworld is to grow in population beyond just us. Us who like a grey world

a world of black and white. A fully predictable world of predictable experiences contained within

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


DeMarco Galthie wrote:

Sorry to say but today I see stores dictating standards for glasses, hands, legs, breasts, etc.. 

 

There's some danger that this thread will become yet another redundant discussion of the pros-and-cons of LL's announcement about the forthcoming new VW that they are developing.

However, this statement struck me as particularly interesting.

When the internet got its start in the 90s, one of the things that made it so successful, I'd argue, is that the basic code to build a web page so simple and easy to create that anyone -- even the proverbial teen working on her basement computer -- could build one.

Before mesh was introduced into Second Life, much the same could be said fo this virtual world: the basic tools for building and  creation were, for the most part, in-world, and were (mostly) pretty intuitive and easy to learn. One might need to use Photoshop or GIMP, and to create avatar animations, one needed external software, but generally speaking pretty much anyone could learn the rudiments of building with a few hours of work. Sculpties were about as complicated as it got, and there were even in-world tools available for creating those.

Mesh, however, changed all that. There's a lot of crappy mesh out there of course, but mesh has, overall, undoubtedly improved the appearance of Second Life. It has done so, however, at the cost of making state-of-the-in-world-art of creation inaccessible to most casual users. I think SL has become a little impoverished, and a great deal more commercial, because of this.

I'll readily concede that builds by enthusiastic amateurs (such as myself) are not up to the standards of those created by more tech-savvy and engaged professional or quasi-professional creators, but it's still true, I think, that SL's capacity to make creation available to 
anyone
was a really vital part of the early success of Second Life.

A new virtual world that does not also extend that capacity to all of its users will be a less creative, less interesting world. SL 2.0 needs to include easy-to-use in-world building tools for 
all 
of its users, or it will be a much diminished place, in my view.

Well, being an animator first, I see things much differently. 1 of the major reasons I got into animation was that it is somewhat easily convertable across platforms. When I heard mesh was coming, I knew exactly what it meant for the creators of SL. I tried to encourage creators to learn mesh, and talked about how it would open up alot of doors for creators. I was thoroughly demonized for being so enthusiastic. People refused to see what was obvious. They learned how to create in SL, which means, they could easily learn how to create in Blender, Maya, or 3Ds Max. There are many others too. I believed in their ablilities, even more than they did. If you haven't tried Blender, you should, or any of the dozens of 3D creation programs.

I agree that LL should institute some kind of primitive system. Every 3D program does the exact same thing. You get a set of primitives to start off your creation as. Heck, ask any 3D artist and they will tell you that 90% of all 3D objects started with a cube or cylinder. Plus, much like in Blender, things like a cube are used as containors for effects or what nots, and the same is true for SL.

What the OP is talking about, with creators forcing customers into standard shapes, is not a result of mesh, but of LL's refusal to address the problem of fitting clothing. The new world should not have these issues, as the solution is actually pretty simple. 1 word. MORPHS!

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phaedra Exonar wrote:


 

"on your mark, get set, go AFK, and be back in half an hour with your finished item"  good luck getting any thing even slightly complex uvmapped and textured in that amount of time. 

 

Actually, most models that I make are done in about an hour or so. 2 hours max. Unwrapping could take up to 20 min if you want to get real fussy. It's 1 click to bake in shadows. You can also just go from there and paint right on the model with any number of texture patterns or even project a real like image onto the mesh. I use Blender now, but I started in 3Ds Max. In Blender, yeah it takes time to learn, but once you do, it can almost be like your moving clay with your hands. When you learn all the tools and shortcut combos, you can fly. Let's remember that I'm not even really a modeler. Even today, when I get contract jobs for real life game companies. If they want need models made also, I'll contact a buddy or 2 to do that work instead. Although, I did make this bamboo stick for my last contract. They wanted an animation for a zen master holding a stick, but they never made a stick for him yet. It was literally a 5 minute job, and very detailed. I actually talked with the CEO on skype, while he watched me make it. Maybe LL should implement screen share in the New World.

BambooStick.png

lol

This bike took me a whole day, but it is pretty detailed and I had to learn more about curves and svg files. The UV map and separate materials was a pain tho.

Oldbicycle.png

 

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surrounded!.JPG

 


irihapeti wrote:


Bree Giffen wrote:

Is it possible that Linden Lab will use the new SL as an opportunity to create a fully PG rated world? In order to appeal to a larger customer base? It would certainly make the continued existence of the current SL more plausible.

i think is not going to be a fully G rated world

it will be segmented like SL is now. If anything the segmentation will be narrower than what it is now. Here is G. Here is A.
The two shall not meet


That is so needed.  This is such a common problem.  How silly it is to surround a G SIM like this.

You really need to keep your eyes on the map when you travel.

 

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Careful segregation of content is definitely a good thing, because it enables choice by the user.

My first real exposure to Dolcet in Second Life happened in the pre-Zindra days, before the "Adult" classification was created. I was exploring a nude beach with a rating of "Mature." It was just a nude beach -- there were no sex pose balls or anything of that type -- but it directly abutted a Dolcet sim, owned by the same person. Right on the border of the Dolcet sim, mere feet from the nude beach was an extremely graphic and violent Dolcet machine, and there were others within easy viewing of the beach. I was appalled -- and still am, in fact -- that a visitor seeking nothing more than a nude beach sim could be exposed so casually and inadvertently to that kind of representation of sexual violence and graphic dismemberment.

The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could still happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. 

When the Adult rating was created, I argued that it was too broad, and that a distinction needed to be made between violence and sexuality. Unfortunately, I think, North Americans in particular tend to be more horrified by sexuality than by violence, so that particular plea fell on deaf ears.

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phaedra Exonar wrote:

I love what you can do with mesh, but I think it's had a big impact on the diversity of items available in SL, there's fewer people that can build with mesh. 
There's such a flood of mesh items on the marketplace it's hard for shops selling non mesh to be seen in the marketplace listings,  many of my favorite shops have closed down,  the problem being no one making mesh has filled in a lot of these small subculture markets that are shrinking.  Who really wan't to take the time to build mesh for a small market, and even if they do the number of items produced in a the same about of time will be less. 

If SL2.0 dosen't make making mesh easier inworld then SL might be the place of choice for the hobbyist builder again as more mesh builders go the SL2.0 

I agree with the first bolded statement completely.

The second one is an interesting thought. Will SL 1.0 become the poor sibling of SL 2.0, as the best creators leave it for greener fields in the new VW?

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


I've built web pages in the 1990's with HTML editors - it was a royal pain. My current web site looks much better and I built it using a WYSIWYG website builder I got for a few dollars at Wal-Mart despite my not knowing a cascading style sheet from a piece of pie.

And in my opinion the building commands in SL are only "easy and intuitive" if you've never used anything else; particularly anything that made
sense
. I've been able to wrap my head around Autocad 12, whose interface has the user-friendliness of a pit bull with a toothache, and yet when I got into SL I told a friend, "Okay, we can travel from one end of this world to the other in a blink of an eye, but its taking me five minutes to put a slice of watermelon into a bowl."

I do think there should be easy building tools in the new world, but when I hear people lamenting about how it was better in the old days with everyone having equal tools it smacks of Harrison Bergeron to me.

 

Fair enough. I can only say that I was able to master, with a fair degree of competence, the in-world building tools for prims and sculpties, and I'm by no one's definition a techie. You may well be right that they are comparatively clumsy, but I've had pretty much zilch experience with anything else. So, really, I'm just speaking from personal experience, rather than with a rose-tinted nostalgia for the good old days.

If the new building tools can be more intuitive than those in SL 1.0, then great!

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Well, being an animator first, I see things much differently. 1 of the major reasons I got into animation was that it is somewhat easily convertable across platforms. When I heard mesh was coming, I knew exactly what it meant for the creators of SL. I tried to encourage creators to learn mesh, and talked about how it would open up alot of doors for creators. I was thoroughly demonized for being so enthusiastic. People refused to see what was obvious. They learned how to create in SL, which means, they could easily learn how to create in Blender, Maya, or 3Ds Max. There are many others too. I believed in their ablilities, even more than they did. If you haven't tried Blender, you should, or any of the dozens of 3D creation programs.

I agree that LL should institute some kind of primitive system. Every 3D program does the exact same thing. You get a set of primitives to start off your creation as. Heck, ask any 3D artist and they will tell you that 90% of all 3D objects started with a cube or cylinder. Plus, much like in Blender, things like a cube are used as containors for effects or what nots, and the same is true for SL.

What the OP is talking about, with creators forcing customers into standard shapes, is not a result of mesh, but of LL's refusal to address the problem of fitting clothing. The new world should not have these issues, as the solution is actually pretty simple. 1 word. MORPHS!

I think the main difference between your perspective and mine is that you are a "professional" creator who expects to make money from his creations. Even when I had a store in which I "sold" books I'd made, I never expected to do that.

There could, potentially, be different levels of tools made available: one sophisticated set for creators such as yourself, and another simple, primitive-based set (even if prims are only the starting point) for "amateur" or casual builders.

The key point is that I'd hate to see building in the new VW become so technically complicated that "ordinary" residents lose the opportunity to become creative as well. That sense of "ANYONE can build!" was part of the magic of early SL, and very much in keeping with "Your World, Your Imagination."

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Careful segregation of content is definitely a good thing, because it enables choice by the user.

My first real exposure to Dolcet in Second Life happened in the pre-Zindra days, before the "Adult" classification was created. I was exploring a nude beach with a rating of "Mature." It was just a nude beach -- there were no sex pose balls or anything of that type -- but it directly abutted a Dolcet sim, owned by the same person. Right on the border of the Dolcet sim, mere feet from the nude beach was an extremely graphic and violent Dolcet machine, and there were others within easy viewing of the beach. I was appalled -- and still am, in fact -- that a visitor seeking nothing more than a nude beach sim could be exposed so casually and inadvertently to that kind of representation of sexual violence and graphic dismemberment.

The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could 
still
happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. 

When the Adult rating was created, I argued that it was too broad, and that a distinction needed to be made between violence and sexuality. Unfortunately, I think, North Americans in particular tend to be 
more
horrified by sexuality than by violence, so that particular plea fell on deaf ears.

"The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could still happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. "

Actually I think you are (partially) wrong here.  A nude beach (nudist) with no adult activity can be rated Moderate.  But many do set nudist beaches with no other activity as "Adult."  But that is not required.

Dolcet, etc is Adult.

But then you get into a possibly grey area on Moderate land with Dolcet if people are complying with the "Behind Closed Doors" policy in the Adult Content Policy.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


phaedra Exonar wrote:

I love what you can do with mesh, but I think it's had a big impact on the diversity of items available in SL, there's fewer people that can build with mesh. 
There's such a flood of mesh items on the marketplace it's hard for shops selling non mesh to be seen in the marketplace listings,  many of my favorite shops have closed down,  the problem being no one making mesh has filled in a lot of these small subculture markets that are shrinking.  Who really wan't to take the time to build mesh for a small market, and even if they do the number of items produced in a the same about of time will be less. 

If SL2.0 dosen't make making mesh easier inworld then SL might be the place of choice for the hobbyist builder again as more mesh builders go the SL2.0 

I agree with the first bolded statement completely.

The second one is an interesting thought. Will SL 1.0 become the poor sibling of SL 2.0, as the best creators leave it for greener fields in the new VW?

SL had a good economy before mesh, minecraft has sold over 15,964,783 copy's,  19,187 in the last 24 hours.  There's a huge market for people who what to build with simple tools.  Simple dosen't have to mean low quality results, look at what's been done with paint brushes, and you can still buy new paint brushes today.  No way to tell which way it might go, but LL having 2 worlds we might see a shift of the types of creators between the 2 worlds.  I'd personally would rather master a simple tool then try to learn a complex one that's going to be out dated every couple of years and have to start over again with ever being a master of it.  I like art that pushes the limits if it's medium, with digital art those limits are rarely reached before the limits are expanded.  I find pushing the limits is where the most interesting things happen. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:

Careful segregation of content is definitely a good thing, because it enables choice by the user.

My first real exposure to Dolcet in Second Life happened in the pre-Zindra days, before the "Adult" classification was created. I was exploring a nude beach with a rating of "Mature." It was just a nude beach -- there were no sex pose balls or anything of that type -- but it directly abutted a Dolcet sim, owned by the same person. Right on the border of the Dolcet sim, mere feet from the nude beach was an extremely graphic and violent Dolcet machine, and there were others within easy viewing of the beach. I was appalled -- and still am, in fact -- that a visitor seeking nothing more than a nude beach sim could be exposed so casually and inadvertently to that kind of representation of sexual violence and graphic dismemberment.

The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could 
still
happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. 

When the Adult rating was created, I argued that it was too broad, and that a distinction needed to be made between violence and sexuality. Unfortunately, I think, North Americans in particular tend to be 
more
horrified by sexuality than by violence, so that particular plea fell on deaf ears.

"The thing is . . . exactly the same thing as what I've just described could still happen in Second Life, because nude beaches and Dolcet sims (or rape sims, or whatever) still fall under the same rating. "

Actually I think you are (partially) wrong here.  A nude beach (nudist) with no adult activity can be rated Moderate.  But many do set nudist beaches with no other activity as "Adult."  But that is not required.

Dolcet, etc is Adult.

But then you get into a possibly grey area on Moderate land with Dolcet if people are complying with the "Behind Closed Doors" policy in the

I think you may be (partially) right.

The Maturity ratings here specify that "Photo-realistic nudity" must be Adult, but the rating FAQ does say that nudity in and of itself (i.e., if not sexual in nature) can be "Moderate." So, it would depend upon the nature of the nudity at said beach.

In a sense, this is a bit of red herring; I used the "nude beach" as an example simply because it was my own actual experience.

The larger point is that sexuality (or nudity) and violent sexuality are very different things. Second Life is full of people (including myself) who are completely fine with open or public representations of consensual sexuality, or even forms of BDSM (and before someone yells at me, yes, I know that SSC- and RACK-informed BDSM is also consensual), but who do not want to stumble by accident into a Dolcet barbecue, a snuff sim, or rape role play.

People should have the right to engage in these activities. People should also have the right not to be exposed to them if they don't want to be. It's about, as I said, choice. Clear segregation of these kinds of activities should, in theory, make everyone happy (although I certainly know people who'd love to get rid of "Moderate" entirely).

(edited slightly for clarity)

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phaedra Exonar wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


phaedra Exonar wrote:

I love what you can do with mesh, but I think it's had a big impact on the diversity of items available in SL, there's fewer people that can build with mesh. 
There's such a flood of mesh items on the marketplace it's hard for shops selling non mesh to be seen in the marketplace listings,  many of my favorite shops have closed down,  the problem being no one making mesh has filled in a lot of these small subculture markets that are shrinking.  Who really wan't to take the time to build mesh for a small market, and even if they do the number of items produced in a the same about of time will be less. 

If SL2.0 dosen't make making mesh easier inworld then SL might be the place of choice for the hobbyist builder again as more mesh builders go the SL2.0 

I agree with the first bolded statement completely.

The second one is an interesting thought. Will SL 1.0 become the poor sibling of SL 2.0, as the best creators leave it for greener fields in the new VW?

SL had a good economy before mesh, minecraft has sold over 15,964,783 copy's,  19,187 in the last 24 hours.  There's a huge market for people who what to build with simple tools.  Simple dosen't have to mean low quality results, look at what's been done with paint brushes, and you can still buy new paint brushes today.  No way to tell which way it might go, but LL having 2 worlds we might see a shift of the types of creators between the 2 worlds.  I'd personally would rather master a simple tool then try to learn a complex one that's going to be out dated every couple of years and have to start over again with ever being a master of it.  I like art that pushes the limits if it's medium, with digital art those limits are rarely reached before the limits are expanded.  I find pushing the limits is where the most interesting things happen. 

Yep, I think I agree with all of this.

It should, though, be possible to have reasonably easy-to-use but effective building tools, even for mesh, in the new VW as well. After all, there are currently available on the marketplace tools that will automate the conversion of prims to mesh. A built-in version of something like that for the viewer shouldn't be too hard to accomplish, I'd have thought.

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