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Vinten

Dear Ebbe Altberg and Philip Rosedale - Public Vote Request

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Ebbe said "SL will be here for years to come." "we have no plans to shut down SL." "And they will continue to work in SL, which, again, we have no plans to close down."

Where do you get "until it becomes unprofitable" from?

LL makes over  million USD a month on tier alone. NOW. Even if half the users left that number wouldn't change. Land barons would have to start leaving. and they aren't losing any money.

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Vinten wrote:

I have a request and wondered if you would consider the following:

Can I respectfully request that you put these proposed changes to the SL platform to a 'Public Vote.'

Respectfully, but I think this is not a voting kind of matter. People naturally resist change, so they'd be inclined to vote NO.

Rather, I want them to listen to the community, and take people's concerns seriously, but ultimately just make a sound business decision about it on their own.

Besides, they've already been working on this for years: any possible voting ship has already sailed a long time ago.

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BTW, what makes any one think that they are building SL2 for us?

Certainly we are all invited.  At least at the moment.

But they could rescind that invitation.

I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of negative nannies at my party.

And I'm also certain that there are and will be people who will welcome the opportunity of building from scratch in the New World and making it an exciting place new people will want to join.

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

"Actually upgrade path might be a misnomer. Content creators need enough of a heads up before it goes live to be ready to hit the fround running with completed or near completed goods. Easiest way is to get them involved in all stages of beta from closed to open so that long before the new grid goes finally opens they have goods ready for the new residents."

Wishful thinking. Look at the proofs. Proof is that when they came up with mesh this was closed and open beta for a loooong time. Then it went online and it took another year, if not more, until mesh items became available in SOMEWHAT substantial amount. And when you visit enough sims  you´ll notice that at last 80 percent of rezzed inventory items still are NOT mesh.

Betterworld will not only have a "mesh" problem, but imagine that additionally any typical SL script functionality will be broken, any SL animation will be broken, including AO´s and whatever else animations in SL are good for.

And what exactly would encourage content creators to drop their SL activities for Betterworld? The expectation of a million excited people dropping in to buy the same stuff they already paid for in SL all over again? A chair is a chair, you know. Most stuff will not look or work substantially better in Betterworld.

Add the fact that the upcoming Facebook VR most probably will cover any kind of family entertainment, anyway. So what would encourage the Off-SL content creators (turbosquid, renderosity and the like) to go for the SL market instead of the much more promising Facebook VR market?

Add the fact that it´s a miserable start for any kind of new product with a "loss" included.

No, even in good faith for Betterworld, there are way too many obstacles for optimism. Maybe Linden Lab will come up with a lil bit more than empty jackets later on to convince me. We´ll see.

Not wishful think. I as someone who has been around this grid a long time (over 10 years at this point) know the problems and pitfulls LL has created/fallen into over the years. I also know there are many content creators who are already trying to work through migration paths to either keep creating in SL1 and do SL2 or go totally over to SL2.

 If these people are not given a heads up during hte beta process (the year or 2 before official release) I agree it is going to be a wasteland content wise. If they are given hthe heads up then I do believe many will be ready to go when it opens.

I can also tell you that when I started SL it was hardly a polished product. Some of us LIKE that stage of things. There is something heady and fun in being part of world building. I have talked to a good 70+ people who used to create in SL way back and have mostly left now that are going to be back in heartbeat to help build the content for the new SL2.

 

You may choose to have a bleak outlook on things and see everything from that lens but not all of us are. Are there pitfalls that can happen. Oh yeah noquestion. Some probably will happen. I still think it has a fighting chance and believe it is the right thing to put ideas out there that will help the people who are working on SL2 avoid some of them. Like getting the content creators up and running BEFORE SL2 is officially open.

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Teagan Tobias wrote:


DesperadoReprise wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

they have no intention of closing SL after the new platfrom is launched.

 

Ebbe has said that LL will close SL as soon as it becomes unprofitable.

That sounds like a death sentence to me.

"is there going to be anything left?"

(I did the bold)

This statement is true for all corporations, every business or organization, when it is no longer profitable they go out of business. It has always been true for Second Life too, when it is no longer profitable it will close. There is nothing new about that.

Very few businesses shoot themselves in the foot by offering competing products, although interestingly Microsoft does with its multiple - almost undifferentiated - financial accounting packages.

SL V2 will kill SL V1 very quickly. Perhaps before it even comes to market.

Instead, if you want a better life, see my feed for details of how you can sign up.

Father "SL V2 is like Kool-Aid; partake of it and forget all your woes" Jim

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Ebbe said "SL will be here for years to come." "we have no plans to shut down SL." "And they will continue to work in SL, which, again, we have no plans to close down."

Where do you get "until it becomes unprofitable" from?

LL makes over  million USD a month on tier alone. NOW. Even if half the users left that number wouldn't change. Land barons would have to start leaving. and they aren't losing any money.

"If all users move rather quickly from SL to our next gen then I assume things went very well. If few are, then I think we'd have more work to do and SL will keep on tickin until only the new one makes sense to operate..."

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Linden-Lab-is-building-a-NEW-virtual-world/td-p/2753476/page/20

 

That was from page 20 Drake. I was sure I had seen the word 'unprofitable' in one of his posts in that big thread but perhaps it was in the SLU thread. Nevertheless, after making the above remark he went out of his way in every subsequent post on the subject over the next 100 pages to 'reassure' everyone that they would not be shutting it down. My gut and business sense tell me to believe what he said the first time rather than the 'spin' of the damage control.

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Ebbe said "SL will be here for years to come." "we have no plans to shut down SL." "And they will continue to work in SL, which, again, we have no plans to close down."

Where do you get "until it becomes unprofitable" from?

LL makes over  million USD a month on tier alone. NOW. Even if half the users left that number wouldn't change. Land barons would have to start leaving. and they aren't losing any money.

"
If all users move rather quickly from SL to our next gen then I assume things went very well. If few are, then I think we'd have more work to do and
SL will keep on tickin until only the new one makes sense to operate
..."

 

That was from page 20 Drake. I was sure I had seen the word 'unprofitable' in one of his posts in that big thread but perhaps it was in the SLU thread. Nevertheless, after making the above remark he went out of his way in every subsequent post on the subject over the next 100 pages to 'reassure' everyone that they would not be shutting it down. My gut and business sense tell me to believe what he said the first time rather than the 'spin' of the damage control.

Somewhere, he did say SL would stay open as long as it was profitable.

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it's been 11 years and they still make money hand over fist.. What will happen if this new platform works with occulus only? how many SLv1 people will move over? What makes you think everyone will jump ship? Personally, i can't afford to spend the thousands i have already over again.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

it's been 11 years and they still make money hand over fist.. What will happen if this new platform works with occulus only? how many SLv1 people will move over? What makes you think everyone will jump ship? Personally, i can't afford to spend the thousands i have already over again.

What makes you think that Facebook are going to allow LL to take advantage of Oculus Rift? I think if I had just paid billions for a USP for my major new user interface development I wouldn't let my competitor near it. If you read carefully, Mr Altberg refers only to OR in terms of SL V1. He knows from his Microsoft days that you make sure that you pay lip service to openness, and build incompatibility with your competitors' products into yours, and I am sure Facebook will.

Father "stealing ideas is OK though" Jim

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Back to the original point....


Vinten wrote:

Can I respectfully request that you put these proposed changes to the SL platform to a 'Public Vote.'

 

Yes, I know it's not being helpful....but REALLY? The Lindens don't give two s**ts now about what the residents want or care about. What in the world (or inworld) makes you think that this would go over like anything but a lead balloon????

 

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First off

LL has every right to change things, how they want and when they want, even close down secondlife in the short, medium, or long term.


What they can't expect, is for the community to follow them like loyal sheep, over to another platform.

This great world has been  the place it has become by the works of the third party creators, and the friendships build up over the years by the people that come here, purchase land, and the objects  the creators make.

Some people have been speculating after the last ToS change, whether part the reason for change is to claw back control of secondlife, and to put an end  to the open sourced scripting, and interlectual property rights.

 

If this is the case,  the board of LL seem to forget or chose to ignore, that this isn't like star trek online or Everquest or any other platform where people can make things for the game.  the people here create to hopefully make money to pay for their outgoings or even if lucky make it a business.

 

They're also forgeting that the citzens of secondlife, may very well resent them causing friendships to  part inworld (other media remains) or that years of personal investment in virtual goods and homes, ( should secondlife version one stop) wasted money.


Many people will resist supporting the new world as it is pointless moving there when everything we want and need is here.


 I fall into that group, I won't be moving or trying and if linden labs do close version one they lost me as a customer, as i'll keep in contact  with people via skype and text,voice options rather than be corraled into a new product.

 

I do hope that linden labs are very carefully monitoring how much money this 'brave new world ' is likely to cost them

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Ok to steer this topic back to the context of the title;

 

For those of you who haven't watched the interview with Jessica Lyons from Firestorm, I invite you to do so.

Pay special attention to the last 15 minutes of the interview where she approaches her views on involving the community as a whole in the development of SL, especially at this time where SL2 is on the table.

 

Jessica Lyons Interview

 

I hope by watching this it will demonstrate to you the importance and purpose of this thread and why I considered it worthy of placing here.

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I've seen the full interview and it comfirmed a feeling I already had.

I do not feel either, as Jessica (Firestorm Dev.) said also, "Second Life 2" is to become a success because I firmly believe creating a new world should be done with us who live Second Life at least via constructive feedback sessions.

This is also why I think it should indeed become open source at a given point.

It is not at all easy to stand in the shoes of someone who does experience Second Life and what people want from it to the finest level we meet in our day to day use of the platform.

 think it is important to gather as much as possible ideas, feedback and concerns as you can to take in consideration as you develop and I think transparancy is even more important since the news "leaked" because we have to be with you in this, I assume, to make this a success.

I think also Linden Labs is in it's complete right to create a new world from which they hope it becomes so valuable that it will tease us away from "Second Life 1".

I do not think this will happen even though it is premature to say this because ofcourse I have to see this new world first before I can judge it.

I think virtual worlds are a niche market if we compair it with Twitter or Facebook.

It relativally has a small interest which makes it even more needed to keep us activally involved with your plans I think.

By how the news came to us a lot of fear is generated amongst the users and I hear from people they stop to invest in SL 1  which is a pitty indeed because investing is the only way to keep it alive on the other end I can't blame them either for being shocked at least.

There is a lot we can't get answers on because it is not set in stone yet which is completely understandable but was this the right time to "leak" this information therefore?

Shouldn't it be announced when more things could be answered, and for example secondary party viewer creators were consulted on how to develop this new world they know the needs and obstacles we residents feel more than anyone, a lot remains to be too uncertain for many which may be harmful for Second Life's economy.

I sure hope some more public reassurance can be given on a variety of questions as soon as possible to make sure people remain to be on board in SL 1 and keep trusting LL or trust them again because wether the current staff was involved or not by the many things happened over the years we were not per se excited about.

We know Linden Labs due to this as a company which does not consult their customers.

For me it feels now like the economy and the interest LL makes of SL 1 goes directly to SL 2 also because Ebbe Linden stated a small crew will be left to run SL 1 and a big team is to do SL 2.

But what with the current bugs and issues we have?

Will they be addressed by this smaller team who are to run SL 1 and can we count on a official viewer which is easier to handle because so many people really do not like that viewer at all.

Are we now really paying for a platform from which we don't even know if it has any future life or our interest and not for the development and improvement of SL 1 and bug fixes?

Maybe I am negative about this but I do not believe it will succeed souly because we, who live SL, are not involved by it.

An other concern I feel is that the merchants are your core business in SL 2 this makes perfect sense as you need content ofcourse but how does that statement make others feel who in fact need to like SL 2 enough to obtain that content?

I can't, for example, imagine a world without an intuitive designed viewer such as Firestorm, which is created by residents for residents.

Many, many people can't work with the official viewer or there are too many clicks to be able to do what we need.

Will it be just as complicated to live SL 2 because no residents are involved in the process of creating it and share thought, suggestions and ideas on how an ideal world might be?

Just some thoughts.

 

I am not English by heart so you may find some odd spelling or sentence constructions.

I do my very best though :-)

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This is just too much...


Kayleigh McMillan wrote:

I've seen the full interview and it comfirmed a feeling I already had.

I do not feel either, as Jessica (Firestorm Dev.) said also, "Second Life 2" is to become a success because I firmly believe creating a new world should be done with us who live Second Life at least via constructive feedback sessions.

Ther is no "should" about it. What LL does is nothing to do with us. Whether or not LL would be wise to take account of current SL users while creating a new platform is different.

This is also why I think it should indeed become open source at a given point.

SL isn't open source and neither should it be. SL2 won't be open source, and neither should it be.

It is not at all easy to stand in the shoes of someone who does experience Second Life and what people want from it to the finest level we meet in our day to day use of the platform.

 think it is important to gather as much as possible ideas, feedback and concerns as you can to take in consideration as you develop and I think transparancy is even more important since the news "leaked" because we have to be with you in this, I assume, to make this a success.

The news did not "leak". It was stated by the CEO.

I think also Linden Labs is in it's complete right to create a new world from which they hope it becomes so valuable that it will tease us away from "Second Life 1".

I do not think this will happen even though it is premature to say this because ofcourse I have to see this new world first before I can judge it.

I think virtual worlds are a niche market if we compair it with Twitter or Facebook.

It relativally has a small interest which makes it even more needed to keep us activally involved with your plans I think.

They may be wise to have input from us, but unwise to have us actually involved.

By how the news came to us a lot of fear is generated amongst the users and I hear from people they stop to invest in SL 1  which is a pitty indeed because investing is the only way to keep it alive on the other end I can't blame them either for being shocked at least.

How would you like the news to come to us? The CEO announced it. Is there something wrong with that? Any fear that may exist is due to people writing/saying things that are pure speculation, and other people believing them, or people wrongly thinking that SL2 is just around the corner. So any fear that may exist is totally unwarranted.

There is a lot we can't get answers on because it is not set in stone yet which is completely understandable but was this the right time to "leak" this information therefore?

Nothing was leaked.

Shouldn't it be announced when more things could be answered, and for example secondary party viewer creators were consulted on how to develop this new world they know the needs and obstacles we residents feel more than anyone, a lot remains to be too uncertain for many which may be harmful for Second Life's economy.

There is absolutely no reason at all why any TPV maker should be involved. They are no different to the rest of the SL users, and they don't represent any SL users. The only harm that may have been done is by people not listening to what has actually been said by the CEO, and making unwarranted speculations.

I sure hope some more public reassurance can be given on a variety of questions as soon as possible to make sure people remain to be on board in SL 1 and keep trusting LL or trust them again because wether the current staff was involved or not by the many things happened over the years we were not per se excited about.

We know Linden Labs due to this as a company which does not consult their customers.

For me it feels now like the economy and the interest LL makes of SL 1 goes directly to SL 2 also because Ebbe Linden stated a small crew will be left to run SL 1 and a big team is to do SL 2.

But what with the current bugs and issues we have?

Will they be addressed by this smaller team who are to run SL 1 and can we count on a official viewer which is easier to handle because so many people really do not like that viewer at all.

Are
 we now really paying for a platform from which we don't even know if it has any future life or our interest and not for the development and improvement of SL 1 and bug fixes?

We know that this platform has at least 2 years of future. What more do you want?

Maybe I am negative about this but I do not believe it will succeed souly because we, who live SL, are not involved by it.

An other concern I feel is that the merchants are your core business in SL 2 this makes perfect sense as you need content ofcourse but how does that statement make others feel who in fact need to like SL 2 enough to obtain that content?

I can't, for example, imagine a world without an intuitive designed viewer such as Firestorm, which is created by residents for residents.

No TPV is more intuituive than the LL viewer.

Many, many people can't work with the official viewer or there are too many clicks to be able to do what we need.

Nonsense. Many many people don't use the LL viewer because they imagine that other viewers are better when they are not.

Will it be just as complicated to live SL 2 because no residents are involved in the process of creating it and share thought, suggestions and ideas on how an ideal world might be?

Just some thoughts.

 

I am not English by heart so you may find some odd spelling or sentence constructions.

I do my very best though :-)

You seem to have way too much concern about something that will happen at least 2 years from now. I suggest you concern yourself with now and the immediate future ;)

One more thing. LL does get input from users. They read forums etc. So there is no need for you to feel left out.

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Please forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but I think what Kayleigh meant by leaked is the that the news did not come in an official SL press release. The way residents and third party developers found out is from that meeting where Ebbe "happened to mention" there was a new platform coming out.

It probably wouldn't have caused less outrage, but might have been better (IMHO) if an official press release was put out stating that LL is developing a new platform that will co-exist alongside SL..blah blah blah. Even the third party developers, Jessica especially, had no idea this was coming and felt blindsided. That's why all these forum posts are out there and why some in the community were panicing as to the future of our world.

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I agree that it would have been much better if there'd been a blog about it, or something like that. My point was that it can't be called a leak when it was the CEO himself who stated it, and yet so many people have wrongly called a leak. Leaks are the divulging of information against the boss's/company's wishes.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I agree that it would have been much better if there'd been a blog about it, or something like that. My point was that it can't be called a leak when it was the CEO himself who stated it, and yet so many people have wrongly called a leak. Leaks are the divulging of information against the boss's/company's wishes.

 Well it's a "leak" because it was done in a private meeting between third party developers and LL employees. He didn't announce it to the general public (and I'm still not sure they have).

Part of the definition is to "to give out (information) surreptitiously". That's where the idea is coming from. But I think we're splitting hares here, Phil. Bigger problem concern is the new platform and how it's going to effect us in the next few years.

And as I said before, at some point I won't be able to run SL anymore....so I'll just gather my stuff, turn out the lights and go one with my RL life. :matte-motes-frown:

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Let's split another hair before finishing then :)

Although the information was given in a private meeting, it wasn't surreptitios. And I don't see how the CEO could think that the people he told would keep it to themselves. So it was openly volunteered. That's my new hairdo finished :)

 

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I think the communications on this have been very carefully managed.

I also think it's quaintly charming, how folks imagine that the CEO just blurted something out accidentally, as if there weren't a detailed plan worked out in advance.

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Tex Monday wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I agree that it would have been much better if there'd been a blog about it, or something like that. My point was that it can't be called a leak when it was the CEO himself who stated it, and yet so many people have wrongly called a leak. Leaks are the divulging of information against the boss's/company's wishes.

 Well it's a "leak" because it was done in a private meeting between third party developers and LL employees. He didn't announce it to the general public (and I'm still not sure they have).

Part of the definition is to "to give out (information) surreptitiously". That's where the idea is coming from. But I think we're splitting hares here, Phil. Bigger
problem
 concern is the new platform and how it's going to effect us in the next few years.

And as I said before, at some point I won't be able to run SL anymore....so I'll just gather my stuff, turn out the lights and go one with my RL life. :matte-motes-frown:

Screw em.. leave the lights on.. Let them come turn them off.

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Tex Monday wrote:

Please forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but I think what Kayleigh meant by leaked is the that the news did not come in an official SL press release. The way residents and third party developers found out is from that meeting where Ebbe "happened to mention" there was a new platform coming out.

It probably wouldn't have caused less outrage, but might have been better (IMHO) if an official press release was put out stating that LL is developing a new platform that will co-exist alongside SL..blah blah blah.
Even the third party developers, Jessica especially, had no idea this was coming and felt blindsided.
That's why all these forum posts are out there and why some in the community were panicing as to the future of our world.

And they were the basically the first ones outside of Linden Lab to hear about it, weren't they? They'd have been even MORE blindsided if it had all been announced in a press release.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I think the communications on this have been
very carefully
managed.

I also think it's quaintly charming, how folks imagine that the CEO just blurted something out accidentally, as if there weren't a detailed plan worked out in advance.

For example, as I type this, Oz is currently talking at the Firestorm meeting about SL1 going forward. Later today there will be an announcement (complete with Torley video) about Experience Tools -- something we've been trying to get details about for a year, and I think there's no coincidence that the communications about it have been delayed until after the new platform was announced.

Oz also mentioned releases just around the corner for:

  • group chat improvments,
  • better embedded web support -- e.g., Media On A Prim -- replacing WebKit with Chrome Embedded Framework, and
  • continued improvement of texture loading speeds (HTTP pipelining).

Some are known quantities, but they're ready to talk a lot more about them. (For these, cause and effect of the timing is debatable, I know. But the obvious delay in the Experience Tools stuff, in particular, sure seems to have been intended to make this exciting news follow the new platform announcement.)

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Phil and Qie (since I don't want to respond to both seperately)

Ebbe may have wished to make the announcement, but it didn't seem as though it was planned. If you watch the youtube video, I don't even think they knew he was there. He might have wanted to do it, but I think he other plans on HOW he wanted it done...thus  surreptitiously. That's just my opinion though....

 

Drake...

No..gotta turn off the lights. The last electric bill is gonna be a killer....:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I think the communications on this have been
very carefully
managed.

I also think it's quaintly charming, how folks imagine that the CEO just blurted something out accidentally, as if there weren't a detailed plan worked out in advance.

This is an interesting perspective, and certainly at odds with the perception of most people here.

In your view, is this strategy "working"? Or is it too early to tell yet?

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Too soon to tell, I think. I'd feel better about it if they also had business changes to announce now -- like an immediate start to shifting their revenue sources from such a near complete dependence on Land to some transaction-based "tax", but that was something Pete Linden was clear they weren't going to announce now.

Other than that, honestly, I've come to realize that we really have no clue how similar the new platform will be to SL1. Right now (and my sense of this shifts all the time), I'm thinking SL2 will be so different from SL1 that most of us won't have any more interest in it than, say, a new release of Grand Theft Auto. Other days I think it will be so similar to SL1 that we'll all just naturally migrate over to it, our Inventories nearly intact. In fact, either of those extremes would be fine with me; it's the space in between where I think their business is at risk, and where it would be extraordinarily tricky to plan communications

I'm sure later, we'll be able to look back and say that it should have been obvious, and it was all telegraphed by what they communicated and when they communicated it. I'm not seeing it yet, though.

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