Thoughts on SL2?

[Pamela Galli]

Over in the GD forum there is a thread about Ebbe's discussion of a new SL in the works, which is taking place on another forum. This is one of his posts and my reply:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebbe Linden **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/images/styles/bingo/but... SL will be here for a long time. It's the best virtual world there is. Linden Lab will continue to make it better. And Linden Lab is also investing heavily in a next generation platform. This is all great and should not scare a client. I'd be more concerned if LL did not invest in the future and if some other company made a better product, as that migration would certainly be more complicated than what we will offer. And it will be in our interest for that migration, when you're ready, to be smooth, certainly when it comes to land. All I've said is that we will not let backwards compatibility compromise the quality of the future product. Let me know if we can help in some way if needed.

I know it is early stages, but I am trying to visualize how an extended period of parallel grids would work -- esp for merchants. For example, I am wondering at what point would I most profitably establish a significant presence on S2? Do I jump* in early and then try to figure out how to run and pay the expenses for two businesses at the same time, when I barely have time to run the one I have now? Or should I wait a bit and watch my clientele drift over to SL2 as my SL1 traffic dwindles, and make the move at some critical point? 

Wondering also if it wouldn't also similarly strain LL resources to maintain two grids for an extended period? After all, at least initially it seems likely the two grids will be sharing the same clientele.

I am thinking that a long lead time of parallel grids might be more problematic than a quite short one. Something worth thinking about.

*By "jump in" I mean the very time consuming process of porting my (4 full sims of) stuff over and redoing all the scripts and animations.

[Jenni Darkwatch]

I'm reasonably sure that mesh will be easy to port. It's an industry standard. Even if they for some reason decide not to use DAE, it's easy.

Animations and scripting will remain to be seen, though IF the new platform proves successful I'm sure some wily people will write converters from LSL to whatever the new platform supports. It's not really hard, it's just another compiler and LSL is simply not that complex.

[Parrish Ashbourne]

in the LSL forum I've linked to a video where Ebbe is talking about scripting.

there are all so some hints about not wanting to import poorly made content in to SL2 the example was prim hair with scripts in all 50 prims, with 1024 textures.  this made me wonder if prims will be supported, which is not a big deal because you can all ready in firestorm convert them to mesh. 

[Pamela Galli]

Yes just not clear if he means what can be uploaded or what can be transferred from inventory. Of course a lot of stuff is unlikely to be eligible, as he has said -- animations, scripts, etc. -- which would render some content useless.

 

I am waiting to see if he answers my Q about this

[Arwen Serpente]

HI there Pamela, right now I'm just trying to digest what this may mean for my customers and business.  If inventory (finished products and building components) can be transferred like on the Beta grid, that would be ideal. Of course, Ebbe has already indicated that many components of how we build will change, so even if we can wake up to full inventories, most items will probably no longer work and would need to be reengineered.

I've worked for over 5 years now and everything I make is a mix of a wide variety of building tools - prims, sculpts, mesh, scripts.  I have over a thousand active products inworld with easily 10-20 pieces in each - (clothing layers and attachments). If I have to redraw, rebuild, reupload everything using the new tools that will be available and to fit a new avatar, it will easily take another 5 years before I can have a comparable store.

FWIW, sales have plummeted to their worst level ever since this information leaked.  I know it's June and June is normally slow - but not like this - this is like falling off a cliff - directly corresponding to the date of the information being inadvertently shared.

I sincerely wish it had never been referred to as "SL2". It's pretty clear, even with the sketchy details, that it is a new grid, new world, new building tools.  It's a sister to the current grid with more up to date technology. It's sounding more and more like it will be a total rebuild even if our accounts and currency are transferrable. 

[OzwellWayfarer]

I am excited at the prospect of a new grid, but cannot really picture how these two grids will co-exist. If the platform is significantly better, the action will move pretty quickly.

My main concern is that they announced it far too early. So early they cant even answer many basic questions. I think it will have a negative impact on the economy for sure as people adopt a "wait and see" mentality. If inventory is non-transferable, who in their right mind is going to throw good money after bad? We all know many virtual projects are planned in terms of years.

So in short I think a new grid is good. But the way it has been announced, with narry even a screenshot or titbit of info other than Ebbes repeated mantra of "it will be better"......that really sucks.

[StarSong Bright]

It will be a big ol pain in the ass for content creators to ramp up in the new system, but creators, if we think ahead this can be a boon not a bust.  If you have proper tracking of your customers (even if just from this point forward) you could offer them discounts in the new system for the new items to put a good spin on it.  Then they know if they go ahead and buy your item now, they can get it in the new system.  I haven't throught the entire idea through yet, but I am sure there is a way to plan ahead for the change over.  

Sure many of us old timers have years and years of "the $h!t we have made" but not all of it needs to come with us.  For some of us, a new inventory from scratch could be a bit of a godsend (I am a ginormous packrat with my 119k item inventory, I admit).  

This is an opportunity to start fresh, with better avis, physics, prims, etc, etc, etc.  SL 1.0 wont go away overnight.  It's a whole new market opening up.  

And sure, there are lots of chicken littles out there whining about all they have spent and have in inventory.  How many of those folks who spent 15k for one of those ancient Stroker Serpentine sex beds are probably still in use?  I suppose that counts for those whining about all the money in their inventories, but most of us move forward.  Stuff gets obsolete, it doesnt matter what we paid for it.  Digital antiques are NOT valuable on the whole.  GET RID OF THE KRUFT and move on is all I can say to them.

Chins up people, SL 2.0 is at least TWO years out.  We have lots of time to get on top of that action!

[Charlotte Bartlett]

Ditto. I think tweeking workflow will be key for dual use of assets once we know more. I do Unity3d development and can only hope I can leverage some of that too. I also remember uploading in Cloud Party it was different but I used the same assets and just forked my workflow when I reached materials. It is perhaps worth looking at the asset store for Unity3d to get an idea of how other platforms approach it.

[Medhue Simoni]

Imagine this Pam. Imagine that you only need to make a product once, and that same product could be sold in the New World, Unity3d, Facebook's Oculus world, Yahoo's uncoming world, and SL with just a little converting of animations. This will save you time, and now that 1 product will be sold everywhere. This is what could be the result of creating for this New World.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

My thoughts? It's far too early to make any sort of assumptions about what will happen and how it will work. All we got from our fearless leader is a bunch of  "We don't know yet" "It's too early to tell" and "TBD".

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Imagine this Pam. Imagine that you only need to make a product once, and that same product could be sold in the New World, Unity3d, Facebook's Oculus world, Yahoo's uncoming world, and SL with just a little converting of animations. This will save you time, and now that 1 product will be sold everywhere. This is what could be the result of creating for this New World.

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And unless the ToS of this new world is drastically different from the one we have now, it will be LL doing the selling of our products to everyone else.

[Pamela Galli]

Well I have been thinking about that. Of course so will millions of others who will skip the actual creation part.

 

At this point I have no idea what will happen to my little handmade 3d stuff business, other than that it will not be what it has been.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Well I have been thinking about that. Of course so will millions of others who will skip the actual creation part.

 

At this point I have no idea what will happen to my little handmade 3d stuff business, other than that it will not be what it has been.

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I understand your concerns about those that try to cheat the process. I just see it as they are small potatoes. We run a business. We take care of our customers. We know exactly how to create the products, and the issues it may have. Those cheats do not do nor know all this. They are a blip on the screen. Besides, there are many more worlds coming, and who knows what those opportunities will bring. None of these cheats will get a $50k job supplying furniture to some virtual business or game. I'm still get work from on going games that are continuously evolving. They know they have access to an animator that knows platforms like Unity3D, and look for ways to give me more work, as they know it all makes the game better. LL has to put out a product that uses all the features out there. There is a basic standard in the industry now. Pretty much all the worlds that get created today are going to use that standard. The best part, is that we don't have to abandon SL at all, cause it is all easily convertible for us. The future looks bright for all of us, if we can keep it together.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Imagine this Pam. Imagine that you only need to make a product once, and that same product could be sold in the New World, Unity3d, Facebook's Oculus world, Yahoo's uncoming world, and SL with just a little converting of animations. This will save you time, and now that 1 product will be sold everywhere. This is what could be the result of creating for this New World.

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And unless the ToS of this new world is drastically different from the one we have now, it will be LL doing the selling of our products to everyone else.

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Although I do want the TOS changed, I'm also fairly certain that their TOS would never hold up in court, especially against a class action lawsuit. This is also why it should be changed.

[Pamela Galli]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Well I have been thinking about that. Of course so will millions of others who will skip the actual creation part.

 

At this point I have no idea what will happen to my little handmade 3d stuff business, other than that it will not be what it has been.

---

I understand your concerns about those that try to cheat the process. I just see it as they are small potatoes. We run a business. We take care of our customers. We know exactly how to create the products, and the issues it may have. Those cheats do not do nor know all this. They are a blip on the screen. Besides, there are many more worlds coming, and who knows what those opportunities will bring. None of these cheats will get a $50k job supplying furniture to some virtual business or game. I'm still get work from on going games that are continuously evolving. They know they have access to an animator that knows platforms like Unity3D, and look for ways to give me more work, as they know it all makes the game better. LL has to put out a product that uses all the features out there. There is a basic standard in the industry now. Pretty much all the worlds that get created today are going to use that standard. The best part, is that we don't have to abandon SL at all, cause it is all easily convertible for us. The future looks bright for all of us, if we can keep it together.

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I agree, and until now I just wanted to have my SL store. But my motto is "Deal with reality or reality will deal with you."  And the reality is that I have nothing to lose by diversifying into other markets.  

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Well I have been thinking about that. Of course so will millions of others who will skip the actual creation part.

 

At this point I have no idea what will happen to my little handmade 3d stuff business, other than that it will not be what it has been.

---

I understand your concerns about those that try to cheat the process. I just see it as they are small potatoes. We run a business. We take care of our customers. We know exactly how to create the products, and the issues it may have. Those cheats do not do nor know all this. They are a blip on the screen. Besides, there are many more worlds coming, and who knows what those opportunities will bring. None of these cheats will get a $50k job supplying furniture to some virtual business or game. I'm still get work from on going games that are continuously evolving. They know they have access to an animator that knows platforms like Unity3D, and look for ways to give me more work, as they know it all makes the game better. LL has to put out a product that uses all the features out there. There is a basic standard in the industry now. Pretty much all the worlds that get created today are going to use that standard. The best part, is that we don't have to abandon SL at all, cause it is all easily convertible for us. The future looks bright for all of us, if we can keep it together.

---

I agree, and until now I just wanted to have my SL store. But my motto is "Deal with reality or reality will deal with you."  And the reality is that I have nothing to lose by diversifying into other markets.  

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I think the problem will come in when the merchant that purchase full perm mesh templates can not use them in the new platform and have to decide on spending hundreds if not thousands again to use in the new system.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Well I have been thinking about that. Of course so will millions of others who will skip the actual creation part.

 

At this point I have no idea what will happen to my little handmade 3d stuff business, other than that it will not be what it has been.

---

I understand your concerns about those that try to cheat the process. I just see it as they are small potatoes. We run a business. We take care of our customers. We know exactly how to create the products, and the issues it may have. Those cheats do not do nor know all this. They are a blip on the screen. Besides, there are many more worlds coming, and who knows what those opportunities will bring. None of these cheats will get a $50k job supplying furniture to some virtual business or game. I'm still get work from on going games that are continuously evolving. They know they have access to an animator that knows platforms like Unity3D, and look for ways to give me more work, as they know it all makes the game better. LL has to put out a product that uses all the features out there. There is a basic standard in the industry now. Pretty much all the worlds that get created today are going to use that standard. The best part, is that we don't have to abandon SL at all, cause it is all easily convertible for us. The future looks bright for all of us, if we can keep it together.

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I agree, and until now I just wanted to have my SL store. But my motto is "Deal with reality or reality will deal with you."  And the reality is that I have nothing to lose by diversifying into other markets.  

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I think the problem will come in when the merchant that purchase full perm mesh templates can not use them in the new platform and have to decide on spending hundreds if not thousands again to use in the new system.

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I know many people keep saying this, but I just don't see the problem. I offer quite a few full perm animation sets for different things. They are here, in SL, not some other world. I don't even know if I will supply them in the New World. I don't even know if that business would be viable in the New World.

I think people are mistakenly thinking that just because LL is also making the platform, that somehow creators are obligated to convert products over. We are not obligated legally nor ethically. As we have also pointed out, they will not be the same products anyways.

Why would they spend money on full perm items in the New World? That is obvious, because they want to make a profits off those full perm items in the New World. Now, maybe if they never made any profit off the full perm market in SL, then they might not buy them in the New World.

To me, the whole problem is calling this SL2. It won't be. I guarantee it. It might be SL2 to Ebbe, or many other Lindens, but it certainly won't be SL2 to the vast majority of residents. IMHO, at best, we might see half of SL in the New World. I predict that SL will go on for, at least, another half decade or more. I predict that SL will become what many of the noncreators really want it to be, which is more about community. In the end, we'll have the New World, more for game creators, and then SL for more community driven things.

[Poenald Palen]

Don't worry, save your energy for beta testing. THEN you can freak out at all the failings and crashes and such.

[Rya Nitely]

Ebbe didn't say it will be called SL2, he said it will be called 'Like SL But Better'

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

Ebbe didn't say it will be called SL2, he said it will be called 'Like SL But Better'

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That would be my fault.... I was the first one to call it that in these forums. Please forgive me.

[Coby Foden]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

Ebbe didn't say it will be called SL2, he said it will be called 'Like SL But Better'

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When Ebbe released the breaking news and made the announcement about the new world in the TPV meeting he was talking about "Next Generation Platform".

Well anyway, we have no idea at all what the new world will be finally called when it's ready. Even Linden Lab might have not yet decided what to call it. Hopefully it will not be called SL2 but something cool. :matte-motes-sunglasses-3: :smileywink:

[Rya Nitely]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Rya Nitely wrote:

Ebbe didn't say it will be called SL2, he said it will be called 'Like SL But Better'

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That would be my fault.... I was the first one to call it that in these forums. Please forgive me.

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I read that long thread where Ebbe kept repeating the words 'Like SL but better' 

But who knows, we may decide to call it 'I can't believe it's not Butter Better' 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Until more concrete facts are known, we can't really make any decision regarding the new world except to roll with it and see how things pan out. We will have a better sense of opportunities available itheredown the road, as well as LL's intentions as more information becomes known.  Hopefully creators will be kept in the loop.

[Rya Nitely]

Hi Amethyst, were you talking to me :matte-motes-smile:? Because my posts here were just light hearted humour, for those who get jokes. I wasn't asking for advice. I can read long SL Universe threads and watch YouTube Q&A sessions as well as the next person if I want answers or advice :matte-motes-smile:

[Chic Aeon]

Various comments to various statement on this thread ----

 

I think the important thing to remember is that is IS another world, not "necessarily" a SL upgrade .

 

Linden Lab already has two other platforms and Desura. I don't see that running one more platform will be a huge deal.

 

While The Lab INTENDS for the new platform to be better, we don't know that it will be or that it will be well received. Worrying about all of SL moving over in a month's time is pretty silly really.

 

I have run businesses in various worlds at the same time. You divide your time and what needs to be done gets done. Some folks can handle that; others cannot or choose not to .

 

In two of the worlds I had shops in I started over from scratch. I didn't worry about importing old goods and that worked well.

 

Ebbe mentioned portable devices for the new world. So there is no reason to believe that it will need heftier computers than SL. It may just as easily run on tablets and  perhaps even phones.

 

The lawyers I listened to last year stated that there were clauses in the TOS of August last that prohibited people from joining in a class action suit, so that is apparently not on the table.

 

Prim to mesh via Firestorm or other TPVs is helpful but it DOES have some drawbacks and it doesn't work perfectly, so folks planning on that method will need to learn at least the basics of a 3D program in order to get their builds correct. Of course there may be improvements in the saving parameters by the time the new world is ready.