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you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....

and there is no SL 1 or SL 2, it are totally different things, Second Life will stay as it is, and Sansar ( current trial name) is not known yet what it will be for real, it's nearly all about hear say and guessing.

The people on Second Life are not the target to move to Sansar it's for a total different type of players/consumers/creators

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rswisher1980 wrote:

The only way I would try sl2 is if I could bring my things from sl1. I think Linden Labs will discover that will be the case with most of us who spend. Why would I just throw away thousands of dollars? In my opinion they should enhance the current game. Then you'll at least keep the customers you already have and still get some new players.

I am not included in "us" above.

Thank you and have a wonderful day.

 

This message was brought to you by the fine folks at Huntress Institute for Wayward Women.  Any opinions expressed are solely those of the author.  Side effects may include sweating, blurred vision, uncontrollable shakes, a sense of euphoria and rug burns. 

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....

and there is no SL 1 or SL 2, it are totally different things, Second Life will stay as it is, and Sansar ( current trial name) is not known yet what it will be for real, it's nearly all about hear say and guessing.

The people on Second Life are not the target to move to Sansar it's for a total different type of players/consumers/creators

5 months does not equal 24 months... tghe last bunch of posts were from 5 months ago.

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....

and there is no SL 1 or SL 2, it are totally different things, Second Life will stay as it is, and Sansar ( current trial name) is not known yet what it will be for real, it's nearly all about hear say and guessing.

The people on Second Life are not the target to move to Sansar it's for a total different type of players/consumers/creators

In the same way Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are totally different?

Being different does not stop Sansar ending up from being called even if only unofficially SL2 .From what I have read, they will be different and aimed at a slightly different user, but not that different, that it won't get called SL2

I look forward to being able to take SL friends to places in Sansar to race on 1024m2 race tracks for boats, motor bikes and cars. I am sure others look forward to playing out Gor or other genre battles. Space ship\air fights on sims of SLs scale are ridiculous, even in warbugs you spend your time hitting sim borders all the time on a sim 16 times that size it allows much greater possibilities.

Retaining inventory is much less important for being able to use the two platforms together than maintaining friends lists.

If they play this right we will be socialising and playing in both, enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

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Aethelwine wrote:


Alwin Alcott wrote:

you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....

and there is no SL 1 or SL 2, it are totally different things, Second Life will stay as it is, and Sansar ( current trial name) is not known yet what it will be for real, it's nearly all about hear say and guessing.

The people on Second Life are not the target to move to Sansar it's for a total different type of players/consumers/creators

In the same way Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are totally different?

Being different does not stop Sansar ending up from being called even if only unofficially SL2 .From what I have read, they will be different and aimed at a slightly different user, but not that different, that it won't get called SL2

I look forward to being able to take SL friends to places in Sansar to race on 1024m2 race tracks for boats, motor bikes and cars. I am sure others look forward to playing out Gor or other genre battles. Space ship\air fights on sims of SLs scale are ridiculous, even in warbugs you spend your time hitting sim borders all the time on a sim 16 times that size it allows much greater possibilities.

Retaining inventory is much less important for being able to use the two platforms together than maintaining friends lists.

If they play this right we will be socialising and playing in both, enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

Based on the original announcement it did sound like an "SL2."  But over time that has been debunked as more and more bits and pieces have been shared with us.

Sansar (or what ever they eventually decided to name it) may have a bit of the flavor of SL because it will be virtual but I think there will be some major differences.  The biggest one will be "Your World, Your Imagination" will have very little place in it.  It will be the Experience (content) Creator's World, Their Imagination."

Also, if I'm understanding correctly, $L will not be the currency used.  One reason for this is that I suspect that content will be more expensive there.   If "land" is to be less expensive then the income has to come from somewhere else.  The only other possible source would be 'entry fees' to the Experiences.  I guess there could be other sources of income but those are the only ones I can think of.  Well possibly some sort of Premium Membership.

To be clear I'm not saying that any of the above are bad things.  Just different.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Aethelwine wrote:


Alwin Alcott wrote:

you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....

and there is no SL 1 or SL 2, it are totally different things, Second Life will stay as it is, and Sansar ( current trial name) is not known yet what it will be for real, it's nearly all about hear say and guessing.

The people on Second Life are not the target to move to Sansar it's for a total different type of players/consumers/creators

In the same way Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are totally different?

Being different does not stop Sansar ending up from being called even if only unofficially SL2 .From what I have read, they will be different and aimed at a slightly different user, but not that different, that it won't get called SL2

I look forward to being able to take SL friends to places in Sansar to race on 1024m2 race tracks for boats, motor bikes and cars. I am sure others look forward to playing out Gor or other genre battles. Space ship\air fights on sims of SLs scale are ridiculous, even in warbugs you spend your time hitting sim borders all the time on a sim 16 times that size it allows much greater possibilities.

Retaining inventory is much less important for being able to use the two platforms together than maintaining friends lists.

If they play this right we will be socialising and playing in both, enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

Based on the original announcement it did sound like an "SL2."  But over time that has been debunked as more and more bits and pieces have been shared with us.

Sansar (or what ever they eventually decided to name it) may have a bit of the flavor of SL because it will be virtual but I think there will be some major differences.  The biggest one will be "Your World, Your Imagination" will have very little place in it.  It will be the Experience (content) Creator's World, Their Imagination."

Also, if I'm understanding correctly, $L will not be the currency used.  One reason for this is that I suspect that content will be more expensive there.   If "land" is to be less expensive then the income has to come from somewhere else.  The only other possible source would be 'entry fees' to the Experiences.  I guess there could be other sources of income but those are the only ones I can think of.  Well possibly some sort of Premium Membership.

To be clear I'm not saying that any of the above are bad things.  Just different.

I thought one of the main things Ebbe said would port is our SL name, Friendslist and our L$. Did he change his mind?

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^^ I agree.

When I first heard of Sansar, I was very worried for the continuation of SL. Nowadays it would seem we have little to fear from Sansar, really. It appears primarily geared towards (highly professional) content creators, like architect firms and people creating hospitals and such. I even read (don't ask me where) LL said they don't even (or ever, even?) expect the kind of content creator density we currently enjoy in SL. I certainly believe the latter. I myself already conjectured the same: that, even if Sansar would just be SL2, made for the same target audiance (which it isn't), it would still take about 2 years ere we'd see any kind of similar content SL has at the moment.

Sansar, if I understood it correctly, requires Maya and/or other 'steep learning-curve' content creation tools; at first, at least (I heard they plan some built-in creation tools, but it will never be as easy as using prims).

Tl;dr: I'm not so worried any more. :)

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I thought one of the main things Ebbe said would port is our SL name, Friendslist and our L$. Did he change his mind?


 

  • Secondlife names sofar i know that still the same in sansar / can be transferred
  • Linden dollars yes, you can transfer some to Sansar. but it's a different currency.
  • Friendslist, dont know. why would you transfer that over to sansar, if not all friedns are in sansar ?

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Aethelwine wrote:


Alwin Alcott wrote:

you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....

and there is no SL 1 or SL 2, it are totally different things, Second Life will stay as it is, and Sansar ( current trial name) is not known yet what it will be for real, it's nearly all about hear say and guessing.

The people on Second Life are not the target to move to Sansar it's for a total different type of players/consumers/creators

In the same way Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are totally different?

Being different does not stop Sansar ending up from being called even if only unofficially SL2 .From what I have read, they will be different and aimed at a slightly different user, but not that different, that it won't get called SL2

I look forward to being able to take SL friends to places in Sansar to race on 1024m2 race tracks for boats, motor bikes and cars. I am sure others look forward to playing out Gor or other genre battles. Space ship\air fights on sims of SLs scale are ridiculous, even in warbugs you spend your time hitting sim borders all the time on a sim 16 times that size it allows much greater possibilities.

Retaining inventory is much less important for being able to use the two platforms together than maintaining friends lists.

If they play this right we will be socialising and playing in both, enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

Based on the original announcement it did sound like an "SL2."  But over time that has been debunked as more and more bits and pieces have been shared with us.

Sansar (or what ever they eventually decided to name it) may have a bit of the flavor of SL because it will be virtual but I think there will be some major differences.  The biggest one will be "Your World, Your Imagination" will have very little place in it.  It will be the Experience (content) Creator's World, Their Imagination."

Also, if I'm understanding correctly, $L will not be the currency used.  One reason for this is that I suspect that content will be more expensive there.   If "land" is to be less expensive then the income has to come from somewhere else.  The only other possible source would be 'entry fees' to the Experiences.  I guess there could be other sources of income but those are the only ones I can think of.  Well possibly some sort of Premium Membership.

To be clear I'm not saying that any of the above are bad things.  Just different.

I thought one of the main things Ebbe said would port is our SL name, Friendslist and our L$. Did he change his mind?

"

Will Project Sansar share the Linden Dollar with Second Life?

A lot of interesting conversations around that topic as well. Currently, the answer is probably no. Ideally, in some ways the answer should be yes, but for various reasons the answer will probably be no.

So what we’ll do then is most likely an exchange in between Sansar and Second Life so you can take your Lindens and move them over to Sansar and take whatever Sansar will ultimately be called, whatever monies over there might ultimately be called, over to Second Life, and move back and forth.

But there’s probably going to be an exchange in between, because we’ll have quite different business models between the two, and we don’t want to have the situation where someone can make money on one side and redeem on the other side, and start sort-of circumventing our business model in awkward ways. so it will probably be another system than the Linden dollar, but probably similar in other ways.

Hopefully, it doesn’t matter too much, because you should be able to transfer from one to the other and take your earnings from one side and using an exchange, bring it over to the other side, and spend it on the other side. and vice versa."

http://modemworld.me/2016/03/11/vwbpe-2016-ebbe-altberg-transcript-with-audio/#currency

But something he didn't say which I brought up is the fact content in Sansar will be more expensive.  There is a need to circumvent "But that dress is cheaper in SL" thinking.  Perception goes a long way.  So among other things while you may be able to buy $L @ 250 per real dollar, I predict Sansar Dollars are going to be more expensive, maybe even as high as 100 per real dollar. (Just using some round numbers for simplicity).

Also I predict transfer fees.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Alwin Alcott wrote:

you'r responding to a nearly two year old thread....


5 months does not equal 24 months... tghe last bunch of posts were from 5 months ago.

true... but the poster replied on the original post... and seeing what he/she did write, didn't read all after that

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I don’t know what Linden Lab is up to but this has to be one of the top ten examples of how NOT to do marketing. It is one thing to announce a possible future direction the company may decide to go in and it is quite another to announce that a project will be finished soon. For one thing, any major business will not announce a new product is in the works until that product has already been completed and only minor tweaking is still required. After two years it is obvious that this is not the case for Sansar.

Secondly, the entire concept of announcing a new product is to generate positive interest in that product. I don’t know whose bright idea it was to announce Sansar then go silent on what it really means but they need to be replaced with someone trained in marketing. Instead, Linden Lab has decided to leave any of their loyal customers to rely on conjecture and speculation that has run rampant and causing many of those loyal customers to leave. The smart thing to do is to start damage control and explain exactly what Sansar is and what is it current state of development. If Linden Lab ever expects to make money off Sansar, or Second Life for that matter, they need to start to generate excitement in the project officially instead of thinking that leaving it to us armchair product development team members to take wild guesses at.

To bad they'll never bother to read this.

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Memory Lane Time:

Many years ago I had the "opportunity" to interview with a rising high-tech company for one of several positions they had open. It was a neat sounding product idea, the offices were new and seemed vibrant, but for various reasons I did not engage there. A few months later I was glad I did not. Allow me to explain ...

The founders of the company were techie types. Good smart folks that really "got it" when it came to technology and how to deliver a workable, saleable product to customers. But they did NOT "get it" when it came to building and managing a company to do the same.

They recognized that they did not have the skills, so they populated the front offices with several names and bodies with good experience in the process and particulars ... then spent every minute of every day denying the advice, guidance, instructions and efforts of those people. In short they were paying massive amounts of good money for the best advice possible then dumping it straight into the trashbin.

They shuttered the company within the first three years.

I'm not saying that's what goes on in LL. I have no proof one way or the other. But it is a scenario played out far too often in the tech industry. It also goes a long way toward explaining why a company with so many plusses keeps doing the stupidest, most idiotic, least well thought-out things.

The solution? Sadly the only two outcomes I've ever seen are either rapid cratering or a slow zombie-crawl for eternity. The one exception I know of where they managed to get the techie-fools to quit screwing things up was Apple. But Jobs was both the problem and the solution .. and that's VERY rare in this industry.

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MB Robonaught wrote:

I don’t know what Linden Lab is up to but this has to be one of the top ten examples of how NOT to do marketing. It is one thing to announce a possible future direction the company may decide to go in and it is quite another to announce that a project will be finished soon. For one thing, any major business will not announce a new product is in the works until that product has already been completed and only minor tweaking is still required. After two years it is obvious that this is not the case for Sansar.

Secondly, the entire concept of announcing a new product is to generate positive interest in that product. I don’t know whose bright idea it was to announce Sansar then go silent on what it really means but they need to be replaced with someone trained in marketing. Instead, Linden Lab has decided to leave any of their loyal customers to rely on conjecture and speculation that has run rampant and
causing many of those loyal customers to leave
. The smart thing to do is to start damage control and explain exactly what Sansar is and what is it current state of development. If Linden Lab ever expects to make money off Sansar, or Second Life for that matter, they need to start to generate excitement in the project officially instead of thinking that leaving it to us armchair product development team members to take wild guesses at.

To bad they'll never bother to read this.

And your evidence for this is?

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Compare the numbers online from before the annoucement and recently. Read the posts in this thread of all those that claimed that Second Life was doomed by the imminent release of Sansar and that drop in numbers is quite obvious.

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MB Robonaught wrote:

Compare the numbers online from before the annoucement and recently. Read the posts in this thread of all those that claimed that Second Life was doomed by the imminent release of Sansar and that drop in numbers is quite obvious.

Could you be a bit more specific, please?   I've just taken a look at the historical concurrency figures on Tyche Sheperd's GridSurvey and it's by no means clear to me that the announcement had any particular effect on concurrency, one way or the other.    To me it simply looks as if the slow but steady decline in concurrency continues at pretty much the same rate.    I certainly wouldn't, on looking at the chart or Tyche's figures, have realised that something significant must have happened in mid-2014.

But probably you're seeing something there that I've not noticed.

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As far as I can see that survey only goes back 60 days and not the almost two years needed to view the change. The survey only registers logins and does not reflect the number of users online at any given moment. I base my info from being a succesful SL business person since 2008 that watches the online count very close to dictate when the best oportunities for sales occur. The other night there were less than 30,000 online which is a far cry from before. Also try looking at the entire point of my post.

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Richardus Raymaker wrote:

30.000 ? it's already so low. can remember the days that it spiked above 70.000. Well, sansar. High Fidelity looks at the end a better option. Yes both in development.

30,000... more than twice what was considered a busy night when i first started SL.. Yeah.. declining..

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MB Robonaught wrote:

As far as I can see that survey only goes back 60 days and not the almost two years needed to view the change. The survey only registers logins and does not reflect the number of users online at any given moment. I base my info from being a succesful SL business person since 2008 that watches the online count very close to dictate when the best oportunities for sales occur. The other night there were less than 30,000 online which is a far cry from before. Also try looking at the entire point of my post.

1) Navigate to http://gridsurvey.com/economy.php

2) Select either Median Daily Concurrency or Mean Daily Concurrency in the drop down box Second Life Metric (Median is probably more meaningful)

3) Click the Chart button just above the table of values that appears.



4)You should see a chart plotting Median Daily Concurrency from 5 Dec 09 onwards.



I see no indication there that anything dramatic happened in mid 2014 to affect the general trend of slow but steady decline.

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MB Robonaught wrote:

Compare the numbers online from before the annoucement and recently. Read the posts in this thread of all those that claimed that Second Life was doomed by the imminent release of Sansar and that drop in numbers is quite obvious.

The decline started well before Sansar was announced. And Tyche Shepherd's figures go back a loooooong way. Not the 60 days you stated in your post.

Now, if you can show a change since Sansar was announced, and you can show that it is attributable to the announcement, please do.

ETA: I now see that Innula showed you how to see the figures.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


MB Robonaught wrote:

Compare the numbers online from before the annoucement and recently. Read the posts in this thread of all those that claimed that Second Life was doomed by the imminent release of Sansar and that drop in numbers is quite obvious.

Could you be a bit more specific, please?   I've just taken a look at the
and it's by no means clear to me that the announcement had any particular effect on concurrency, one way or the other.    To me it simply looks as if the slow but steady decline in concurrency continues at pretty much the same rate.    I certainly wouldn't, on looking at the chart or Tyche's figures, have realised that something significant must have happened in mid-2014.

But probably you're seeing something there that I've not noticed.

Innula, here's my napkin analysis of Tyche's concurrency data...



That plot is of the year over year change in concurrency (attrition) for the last five years. Today is on the right. The ragged line is the weekly moving average of the data (to take out the weekly cycle noise) and the smooth line is the 180 day moving average. The zero line represents stasis. Above it we're growing, below it, we're shrinking.

You'll see that the overall trend is up. SL's shrinkage is decelerating. That deceleration roughly correlates with Ebbe's arrival and the announcement of Sansar.

If anything, I see evidence to contradict MB Robonaught's claims. Death is often a positive feedback experience, in which declining health accelerates further decline. We're not seeing that here. I'll guess that's because a core group of us just don't know when to let go.

;-).

ETA: For clarification, the vertical axis represents the annual decline rate, computed daily by subtracting the concurrency 365 days prior from the concurrendy that day. We're currently losing about 1000 residents per year, way over there on the right.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Richardus Raymaker wrote:

30.000 ? it's already so low. can remember the days that it spiked above 70.000. Well, sansar. High Fidelity looks at the end a better option. Yes both in development.

30,000... more than twice what was considered a busy night when i first started SL.. Yeah.. declining..

Likewise - well almost.

I remember when LL didn't think they'd manage to break 30k. It hung around in the 20s for some considerable time. When it did break 30k (during 2007), and problems still continued, people were eager to claim that 30k is too many for the system to handle; i.e. 30k breaks the system was a common claim.

It used to be 12k (on my login) when I signed up.

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Thanks for the heads up on that but please forgive if I'm ignorant on saying isn't that just a graph of the median number of transactions through the database and not the number of people online? I also never said that there was a sudden drop of people leaving SL but a decline over the 2 years. 

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But you did say that it was due to the Sansar announcement. I don't believe there's been any change due to that.

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