Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Madelaine McMasters]

LL's currency exchange could have upper and lower limits to prevent major swings that might spook residents into leaving. Nobody in their right mind would SL join with the intent to profit from hedging Linden exchange rate swings, but plenty would leave if they couldn't forecast their game expenses.

LL may allow just enough variability to give the impression it's like a real currency exchange. The Lindex is not an analog of real currency exchanges. SL has no GDP, no commodity, capital, or money markets, and no regulation. Real-estate taxes dominate the economy and are determined by LL.

In this regard SL is an entertainment platform intended to bring a profit to LL. They'll do whatever is in that interest, including manipulating/controlling the Lindex to preserve their tax levies.

The TOS says that LL is a service, not a good, though they do confuse the issue in the opening paragraph by stating that they offer products and services, and then define services as meaning everything. Use of the service might give someone the impression that they have goods, but I don't see the law making that leap. Online storage services like Dropbox and Amazon(AWS) store valuable information for their customers. But they too are selling a service. If they suffer a catastrophe or shutter their operation and lose your stuff, they are not liable for it, are not obligated to replace it, nor to compensate you for it.

[Gavin Hird]

I think the reason why the TOS says products and services is they have (had) these items sold on the App store, and those are products for which they use the same TOS.  

[Michaelatv Destiny]

Sorry Drake I dont buy that, I have been receiving almost a third more L$ for my GBP for almost 12 months since the US$ started to free fall against other currency's, 18 months ago a homestead estate would have cost me £25 a week at the exchange rate at the time, that same homestead at same sim vendor is still priced the same IN L$, but to pay the tier in GBP  now only costs me £17.99, thats an exchange rate fall in US$ - GBP by £6. So maybe you could explain that??

 

LL and yourself also forgets earlier this year, Russia and China froze out the US$ in energy deals, if this coming winter is as bad for my friends In Lafayette as it was last year with the polar Vortex destabilizing again, The US economy will further decline, to keep the lights on using more of its own resources, the US$ will fall even further causing a real problem for any country relying on the US$ still.

 

I dont know where you live, but when I buy L$, each week, I get less or more one week than  the other, due to exchange rate fluctuations. some years ago, the US$ was very high, against the GBP, thats when it cost over £25 to rent an estate homestead, instead of now, which is almost a third cheaper.  The US$ dollar value has moved steadily downwards for the last year, you say it hasnt moved? How can you say that, when i have pointed out above, that the weak dollar is realising another 2000  MORE L$ using GBP than 18-24 months ago. Also you are wrong that LL doesnt say it is a game, because in 2009, when I was premium and made a complaint about some transaction, that didnt fulfil a cash transaction, a vendor problem,   LL washed there hands off it, saying this is a "GAME", nothing more, nothing less,no refunds, because its not a business, and thats from an email from support Drake.

[Michaelatv Destiny]

yes, I made a mistake saying "Stock markets", I really just meant the rates of currency change every day, and thats reflected by my increased buying power, Im seeing here and now of course, nothing to do with stock markets, my bad!:matte-motes-mad:

[Gavin Hird]

I believe LLD is only fixed agains the USD, so when you buy in other currencies, you technically first buy the dollars required to fill your LLD request, and that will of course change with the fluctuations of USD against other currencies. 

I never buy LLD any more, just sell against USD that goes to a Paypal USD account. 

[Michaelatv Destiny]

yes but on this occasion your being forced to leave town, because you have no option.  LL will close down the town, but in RL, you can take your stock with you and set up in another town, But in SL2  Town,  SL1 Town will keep all your poccessions, because it reckons you dont own them, even  though you paid RL cash from paypal for them.

[Dresden Ceriano]

I'll be the first to admit that I know virtually nothing about money markets and such, but it seems to me that what you're actually talking about is the conversion rate between GBP and USD, which is entirely out of LL's control and, as such, plays little part in the actual operation of SL's micro-economy.

...Dres

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Michaelatv Destiny wrote:

Sorry Drake I dont buy that, I have been receiving almost a third more L$ for my GBP for almost 12 months since the US$ started to free fall against other currency's, 18 months ago a homestead estate would have cost me £25 a week at the exchange rate at the time, that same homestead at same sim vendor is still priced the same IN L$, but to pay the tier in GBP  now only costs me £17.99, thats an exchange rate fall in US$ - GBP by £6. So maybe you could explain that??

 

LL and yourself also forgets earlier this year, Russia and China froze out the US$ in energy deals, if this coming winter is as bad for my friends In Lafayette as it was last year with the polar Vortex destabilizing again, The US economy will further decline, to keep the lights on using more of its own resources, the US$ will fall even further causing a real problem for any country relying on the US$ still.

 

I dont know where you live, but when I buy L$, each week, I get less or more one week than  the other, due to exchange rate fluctuations. some years ago, the US$ was very high, against the GBP, thats when it cost over £25 to rent an estate homestead, instead of now, which is almost a third cheaper.  The US$ dollar value has moved steadily downwards for the last year, you say it hasnt moved? How can you say that, when i have pointed out above, that the weak dollar is realising another 2000  MORE L$ using GBP than 18-24 months ago. Also you are wrong that LL doesnt say it is a game, because in 2009, when I was premium and made a complaint about some transaction, that didnt fulfil a cash transaction, a vendor problem,   LL washed there hands off it, saying this is a "GAME", nothing more, nothing less,no refunds, because its not a business, and thats from an email from support Drake.

---

I live in the US, the L$ has never changed in over 6 years. 247L per USD. You need to learn to comprehend what someone replies.. Every thing i said was L$ vs USD. Just because you get a better rate of your currency vs the USD does not mean that the L$ has changed value. Perhaps LL should lock in the value of the L$ vs all currency not just the USD. I bet that would shut people up quick. Would you like 247L$ per Euro or GBP?

Just because some support yahoo called SL a game doesnt not make it a LL fact.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

LL's currency exchange could have upper and lower limits to prevent major swings that might spook residents into leaving. Nobody in their right mind would SL join with the intent to profit from hedging Linden exchange rate swings, but plenty would leave if they couldn't forecast their game expenses.

---

About a year ago (maybe a little longer) there was a thread started by someone who clearly had not done their math thinking that they could profit.  You're probably better at math than I am but the math I've done says that after calculating in fees you can't profit by trading on the Lindex.  Even if you had bought back when you could get $270L and sold today at $250L I'm not sure you'd net a profit.  It would be miniscule for sure

 

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

<snip>

 

The TOS says that LL is a service....

</snip>

 

---

You left an important word out here:  "Provider."

Linden Lab states that they are a "Service Provider."  But they do not say that is all that they are.  So when you read phrases about 'using the service,' without the word 'provider,' it is referring to something very distinct.

You do not use Linden Lab.  You use the services Linden Lab provides.

I believe those nuances are genuine and important and though I am not going to reread the whole TOS right now, I do believe they carry through the whole TOS.

[Michaelatv Destiny]

Interesting post, But in the UK, money made  in a virtual world is taxable by the UK HM and customs. Many UK sellers, on the market Place and for that matter Ebay, have to tread very lightly, as its very easy for HM tax and revenue to find out through a variety of means if your recieving income, from an online business model. Any moneys made has to be declared in a tax return form, and if you make money from Ebay or Second life while recieving benefits, in this country if you dont declare that fact, you can be in trouble with the DWP lawyers, who see this as fraud, by unlawfully claiming benefits while recieving an income.

 

Big brother is much bigger than 20 years ago, we see many people each week in our local paper, being charged with not telling the DWP of a change of circumstances, such as, change of income. Even if you do charity work for no reward, it has to be put in your tax return form, such is the way it is here now.:matte-motes-frown:

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Michaelatv Destiny wrote:

yes but on this occasion your being forced to leave town, because you have no option.  LL will close down the town, but in RL, you can take your stock with you and set up in another town, But in SL2  Town,  SL1 Town will keep all your poccessions, because it reckons you dont own them, even  though you paid RL cash from paypal for them.

---

You don't own them... what you paid for is a license to use those assets in SL.  If you want to use them in "another town", you'll have to pay for a license to do so or make some sort of deal with the person you purchased the license from in SL.

...Dres

[Gavin Hird]

Oh, it will be reported all right simply because Paypal will do it, but it is still not taxable as income here as long as they regard SecondLife a game and the proceeds as being won in it. 

Admitedly it can easily become a grey zone when / if you are talking high figures, but the Treasurey said in a statement this is not regulated by local legislation (in this country) or EU directives.  

[Perrie Juran]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

---

I live in the US, the L$ has never changed in over 6 years. 247L per USD. You need to learn to comprehend what someone replies.. Every thing i said was L$ vs USD. Just because you get a better rate of your currency vs the USD does not mean that the L$ has changed value. Perhaps LL should lock in the value of the L$ vs all currency not just the USD. I bet that would shut people up quick. Would you like 247L$ per Euro or GBP?

Just because some support yahoo called SL a game doesnt not make it a LL fact.

---

Sorry Drake.  October 2009, open and close rate was around 259/260.  http://gridsurvey.com/lindex.php?page=37

It has been stable at around 247/248 for a while now, but it has and does fluctuate.

In monetary terms, we would say that the $L has strengthened against the US$.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

Oh, it will be reported all right simply because Paypal will do it, but it is still not taxable as income here as long as they regard SecondLife a game and the proceeds as being won in it. 

Admitedly it can easily become a grey zone when / if you are talking high figures, but the Treasurey said in a statement this is not regulated by local legislation (in this country) or EU directives.  

---

I thought you had this discussion in the past with users from other EU countries.

As I recall, though you didn't say where you live (and I'm not expecting you to say), the rules in your Country were a little different then users in other EU Countries.  There are some EU users who have clearly stated they need to report it as earnings/pay taxes where they live.

 

eta:clarity

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Michaelatv Destiny wrote:

Interesting post, But in the UK, money made  in a virtual world is taxable by the UK HM and customs. Many UK sellers, on the market Place and for that matter Ebay, have to tread very lightly, as its very easy for HM tax and revenue to find out through a variety of means if your recieving income, from an online business model. Any moneys made has to be declared in a tax return form, and if you make money from Ebay or Second life while recieving benefits, in this country if you dont declare that fact, you can be in trouble with the DWP lawyers, who see this as fraud, by unlawfully claiming benefits while recieving an income.

---

The only time you have to pay taxes on what you've earned in SL is when you cash out, thereby changing lindens into RL money.  It's really no different than if you were to buy a plant, make clippings, then sell the new plants for cash.  You're supposed to pay taxes on the cash which you've made doing so, but that doesn't mean that those plants were ever considered legal currency.

...Dres

[Gavin Hird]

I live in a country that has to implement any EU directive in its legislation, and the Treasury concluded virtual currency were not subject to any EU directive. So that is the same for every EU country. 

Some EU countries have additional local legislation (and they can as long as there is not a EU directive for it), so there are variations.

The treasury concluded virtual currency is not covered by any local legislation. I don't have to pay VAT on anything SL, and the treasurey regards any proceeds as winnings in a game. 

[Michaelatv Destiny]

Ok Dresden, then lets look at licensing, as Im an avid supporter in many groups in UK and Germany apposing DRM in stand alone games.

If I go and buy a game of Amazon or where ever, or indeed a game for a PS3-4,  You cant do what you want with the physical copy or CD, because as you rightly say, your using the TOS licence to use said software , you dont own it in reality.

However, having said that,  I can take 20 games PC or PS3 games to my local cash converter store and get around 40$ for them or in my case pounds.  So in effect, although you dont own the software on the disc, you can still reclaim some of your investment back at any time by selling them to a third party for cash or to a friend, so if thats the case, we should be able to claim or sell back to LL our expensive objects at a reduced rate, being licensed to use said objects.

 

Objects in Second life are rather like software in boxes, you dont own them, but because they were paid for in genuine currency, then I dont see any difference of the licencing of objects I bought in second life to the PC games I bought from the high street?  The differance is, although, the software company only gives you a licence to use said software, and no more, I can still sell it on to a third party. LL effectively has made second Life a closed shop really, and closed loop holes to any recourse, which I think is depolarable.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

---

I live in the US, the L$ has never changed in over 6 years. 247L per USD. You need to learn to comprehend what someone replies.. Every thing i said was L$ vs USD. Just because you get a better rate of your currency vs the USD does not mean that the L$ has changed value. Perhaps LL should lock in the value of the L$ vs all currency not just the USD. I bet that would shut people up quick. Would you like 247L$ per Euro or GBP?

Just because some support yahoo called SL a game doesnt not make it a LL fact.

---

Sorry Drake.  October 2009, open and close rate was around 259/260. 

http://gridsurvey.com/lindex.php?page=37

It has been stable at around 247/248 for a while now, but it has and does fluctuate.

In monetary terms, we would say that the $L has strengthened against the US$.

---

You are talking about less than 1/2 of a pennies difference in 5 years... Hardly the wild fluctuations Michaelatv was describing.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

---

I live in the US, the L$ has never changed in over 6 years. 247L per USD. You need to learn to comprehend what someone replies.. Every thing i said was L$ vs USD. Just because you get a better rate of your currency vs the USD does not mean that the L$ has changed value. Perhaps LL should lock in the value of the L$ vs all currency not just the USD. I bet that would shut people up quick. Would you like 247L$ per Euro or GBP?

Just because some support yahoo called SL a game doesnt not make it a LL fact.

---

Sorry Drake.  October 2009, open and close rate was around 259/260. 

http://gridsurvey.com/lindex.php?page=37

It has been stable at around 247/248 for a while now, but it has and does fluctuate.

In monetary terms, we would say that the $L has strengthened against the US$.

---

You are talking about less than 1/2 of a pennies difference in 5 years... Hardly the wild fluctuations Michaelatv was describing.

---

Oh, I'll absolutely agree with that when compared with RL money.  But even compared only In House, a 10L fluctuation over five or six years is still not very much.

But then again, if you are an Estate dealing with tens, even hundreds of thousands in $Ls on a weekly or monthly basis, those half pennies add up. 

Right now the current rate benefits any one who is selling $L's.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

LL's currency exchange could have upper and lower limits to prevent major swings that might spook residents into leaving. Nobody in their right mind would SL join with the intent to profit from hedging Linden exchange rate swings, but plenty would leave if they couldn't forecast their game expenses.

---

About a year ago (maybe a little longer) there was a thread started by someone who clearly had not done their math thinking that they could profit.  You're probably better at math than I am but the math I've done says that after calculating in fees you can't profit by trading on the Lindex.  Even if you had bought back when you could get $270L and sold today at $250L I'm not sure you'd net a profit.  It would be miniscule for sure

 

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

<snip>

 

The TOS says that LL is a service....

</snip>

 

---

You left an important word out here:  "Provider."

Linden Lab states that they are a "Service Provider."  But they do not say that is all that they are.  So when you read phrases about 'using the service,' without the word 'provider,' it is referring to something very distinct.

You do not use Linden Lab.  You use the services Linden Lab provides.

I believe those nuances are genuine and important and though I am not going to reread the whole TOS right now, I do believe they carry through the whole TOS.

---

Yep, thanks for catching that. Though in a sense I think LL does say that a service provider is "all they are". They do that by stating that "service" means everything in the opening paragraph of the TOS. I bolded that part, which sorta conflicts with the part I underlined. If "service" means everything, then what does products and services mean? More than everything?! I've no interest in thinking hard enough to find something that's not included in the list of things that are a service to could therefore be a product.

This agreement (the "Agreement" or the "Terms of Service") describes the terms on which Linden Research, Inc.  ("Linden Lab") offer you access to its interactive entertainment products and services.  The "Service" means all features, applications, content and downloads offered by Linden Lab, including its Websites, Servers, Linden Software, Linden Content, and User Content (as those terms are defined below). This offer is conditioned on your agreement to all of the terms and conditions contained in the Terms of Service, including the policies and terms linked to or otherwise referenced in this Agreement, all of which are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.

 

 

And I think the TOS is consistent throughout, and remarkably similar to those of many other companies.  During the TOS change flap, I read the YouTube TOS and found it to be functionally almost equivalent.

And as others are pointing out, the "products" we see within SL are actually licenses to use instances. In the digital world, it's impossible to own anything in the classic sense of tangible property (well, maybe encryption allows it somehow).

I don't doubt that your math shows there was no way to make a profit on historical exchange rate swings. I'd also not be surprised if that was intentional. LL's goal is to drive our behavior to make them a profit. A virtual money market may be intellectually stimulating, but that doesn't mean it's actually a money market.

The next time a game!/not-a-game! thread pops up, maybe I'll jump in and insist that SL is an "interactive entertainment service, dammit!"

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

---

I live in the US, the L$ has never changed in over 6 years. 247L per USD. You need to learn to comprehend what someone replies.. Every thing i said was L$ vs USD. Just because you get a better rate of your currency vs the USD does not mean that the L$ has changed value. Perhaps LL should lock in the value of the L$ vs all currency not just the USD. I bet that would shut people up quick. Would you like 247L$ per Euro or GBP?

Just because some support yahoo called SL a game doesnt not make it a LL fact.

---

Sorry Drake.  October 2009, open and close rate was around 259/260. 

http://gridsurvey.com/lindex.php?page=37

It has been stable at around 247/248 for a while now, but it has and does fluctuate.

In monetary terms, we would say that the $L has strengthened against the US$.

---

You are talking about less than 1/2 of a pennies difference in 5 years... Hardly the wild fluctuations Michaelatv was describing.

---

Yep, and given the fluctuations seen in real world exchange rates, capital and commodity markets, bond yields and everything else over the years (including rise of mobile/social), doesn't it seem likely that real financial analysts might look at the historical L$/US$ exchange rate and say "hmmm, that looks managed"?

ETA: If people want to say that the LindeX is truly analogous to real money markets, then I'm going to say that concurrency is truly analogous to species extinction graphs. SL residents are on the endangered list!

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Michaelatv Destiny wrote:

LL effectively has made second Life a closed shop really, and closed loop holes to any recourse, which I think is depolarable.

---

It's really quite simple.  If you didn't like the terms to which you agreed prior to using their services, you shouldn't have agree to them and, instead, went about finding someone else who's terms you do like to provide you those services.

...Dres

[Perrie Juran]

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

LL's currency exchange could have upper and lower limits to prevent major swings that might spook residents into leaving. Nobody in their right mind would SL join with the intent to profit from hedging Linden exchange rate swings, but plenty would leave if they couldn't forecast their game expenses.

---

About a year ago (maybe a little longer) there was a thread started by someone who clearly had not done their math thinking that they could profit.  You're probably better at math than I am but the math I've done says that after calculating in fees you can't profit by trading on the Lindex.  Even if you had bought back when you could get $270L and sold today at $250L I'm not sure you'd net a profit.  It would be miniscule for sure

 

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

<snip>

 

The TOS says that LL is a service....

</snip>

 

---

You left an important word out here:  "Provider."

Linden Lab states that they are a "Service Provider."  But they do not say that is all that they are.  So when you read phrases about 'using the service,' without the word 'provider,' it is referring to something very distinct.

You do not use Linden Lab.  You use the services Linden Lab provides.

I believe those nuances are genuine and important and though I am not going to reread the whole TOS right now, I do believe they carry through the whole TOS.

---

Yep, thanks for catching that. Though in a sense I think LL does say that a service provider is "all they are". They do that by stating that "service" means everything in the opening paragraph of the TOS. I bolded that part, which sorta conflicts with the part I underlined. If "service" means everything, then what does products and services mean? More than everything?! I've no interest in thinking hard enough to find something that's not included in the list of things that are a service to could therefore be a product.

This agreement (the "Agreement" or the "Terms of Service") describes the terms on which Linden Research, Inc.  ("Linden Lab") offer you access to its interactive entertainment

products and services

. 

The "Service" means all features, applications, content and downloads offered by Linden Lab, including its Websites, Servers, Linden Software, Linden Content, and User Content (as those terms are defined below).

This offer is conditioned on your agreement to all of the terms and conditions contained in the Terms of Service, including the policies and terms linked to or otherwise referenced in this Agreement, all of which are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.

 

 

And I think the TOS is consistent throughout, and remarkably similar to those of many other companies.  During the TOS change flap, I read the YouTube TOS and found it to be functionally almost equivalent.

And as others are pointing out, the "products" we see within SL are actually licenses to use instances. In the digital world, it's impossible to own anything in the classic sense of tangible property (well, maybe encryption allows it somehow).

I don't doubt that your math shows there was no way to make a profit on historical exchange rate swings. I'd also not be surprised if that was intentional. LL's goal is to drive our behavior to make them a profit. A virtual money market may be intellectually stimulating, but that doesn't mean it's actually a money market.

The next time a game!/not-a-game! thread pops up, maybe I'll jump in and insist that SL is an "interactive entertainment service, dammit!"

---

What they did is for the purpose of the contract turn the word "Service" into a proper noun.  If they did it correctly (I'm not going back through the whole thing), it should be capitalized every time that meaning is intended.  It would be distinct from them saying later on, "a service we provide is, etc, etc."

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Michaelatv Destiny wrote:

Ok Dresden, then lets look at licensing, as Im an avid supporter in many groups in UK and Germany apposing DRM in stand alone games.

If I go and buy a game of Amazon or where ever, or indeed a game for a PS3-4,  You cant do what you want with the physical copy or CD, because as you rightly say, your using the TOS licence to use said software , you dont own it in reality.

Sure you can.. If i want to re-sell that disc, I can. There is no law preventing it.

However, having said that,  I can take 20 games PC or PS3 games to my local cash converter store and get around 40$ for them or in my case pounds.  So in effect, although you dont own the software on the disc, you can still reclaim some of your investment back at any time by selling them to a third party for cash or to a friend, so if thats the case, we should be able to claim or sell back to LL our expensive objects at a reduced rate, being licensed to use said objects.

 

Big difference, LL is not selling you those products, Merchants are. Merchants who are users just like yourself. In fact, if you had the skills you would never have to buy anything in SL. You could make all of your own items.

Objects in Second life are rather like software in boxes, you dont own them, but because they were paid for in genuine currency, then I dont see any difference of the licencing of objects I bought in second life to the PC games I bought from the high street?  The differance is, although, the software company only gives you a licence to use said software, and no more, I can still sell it on to a third party. LL effectively has made second Life a closed shop really, and closed loop holes to any recourse, which I think is depolarable.

They are not paid for with genuine currency, they are paid for in tokens.

"

4.5 “Linden Dollars” are virtual tokens that we license. Each Linden Dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden Dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

"

You do not recieve money from LL when you cash out, you are getting money from other users who are buying L$. LL is simply the broker. They take a small fee, nothing more.

You are not paying for the use of SL. You can use the platform for ZERO dollars. You can spend years in SL without ever having biought a single L$ from the Lindex. I know several people who have paying jobs in SL, houses and tons of itemms in their inventory, all never having bought a single L$.

---

Bottom line, you agreed to the ToS, put on your big girl panties and deal with it. LL owes you nothing.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Michaelatv Destiny wrote:

Ok Dresden, then lets look at licensing, as Im an avid supporter in many groups in UK and Germany apposing DRM in stand alone games.

If I go and buy a game of Amazon or where ever, or indeed a game for a PS3-4,  You cant do what you want with the physical copy or CD, because as you rightly say, your using the TOS licence to use said software , you dont own it in reality.

However, having said that,  I can take 20 games PC or PS3 games to my local cash converter store and get around 40$ for them or in my case pounds.  So in effect, although you dont own the software on the disc, you can still reclaim some of your investment back at any time by selling them to a third party for cash or to a friend, so if thats the case, we should be able to claim or sell back to LL our expensive objects at a reduced rate, being licensed to use said objects.

 

Objects in Second life are rather like software in boxes, you dont own them, but because they were paid for in genuine currency, then I dont see any difference of the licencing of objects I bought in second life to the PC games I bought from the high street?  The differance is, although, the software company only gives you a licence to use said software, and no more, I can still sell it on to a third party. LL effectively has made second Life a closed shop really, and closed loop holes to any recourse, which I think is depolarable.

---

Whether you can get money for a physical copy of something depends on its licensing. I have engineering software (cost me $5,000) that arrived on DVDs, for which I couldn't get a penny if I tried to resell them. And that's because the license is locked to me via my computer and e-mail address, not to the DVDs. Should I choose to sell my license to another, the transfer process must be done by the engineering software vendor. I also once had software that arrived on CD and was locked to a USB key. Again, the CDs were effectively worthless, but I was able to (both legally and actually) sell the license, via the USB key.

In the case of console games, the license is generally attached to the physical media, and is transferrable via that media. So, the value you recover on resale of the CD/DVD is the value of the license, not the underlying CD/DVD, which is otherwise worthless.

If the license you obtain for something in SL says "no transfer", you cannot sell it, period. If it says "no copy", you cannot make a copy. Removing the asset from the SL system would be copying, as the thing you licensed is still in SL, and the version out-world is no longer under control of the rights management system.

If the license is full perm, you do have the right to take a copy out-world, but not the ability. LL is not obligated to provide that ability, they're the service provider. I think your legal beef would be with the creator of the full perm item, for not providing an out-world copy. This particular area is fuzzy to me, as I don't think there's a fully fleshed out bit of legal boilerplate to describe just what "full perm" means outside SL.