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Look Hun it is obvious that you have never tried to port something from SL to say InWorldz.  If you had you would know that they are not 100% compatible nor 100% the same platform.

While yes based on a lot of the same code there are differences between the code for SL and all other Open Sims and I am sure that difference is just going to get bigger and bigger Dearie.  So it could be argued that SL and all other Open Sims are not truly the same platform.

Just proclaiming something is a different platform hence making teleporting from one platform to another platform is impossible doesn't make it so.  It boarders on idiotic.

And unlike you I won't be so rude to suggest you shouldn't talk no matter how little or how great I think you might be educated on the subject.

 

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Mony Lindman wrote:

FYI this is what the CEO of SL already answered about teleporting between SL1 and SL2:

Mony Lindman wrote:

Ebbe Linden wrote:


You will certainly be able keep your identity, social network and L$ and you can hop back and forth and decide for yourself where it makes sense to spend your time and energy. 


How do you mean this "hop back and forth" move ? In the same viewer ? Teleporting ? Loging off and loging in with another viewer ?

Sorry, different viewers you would have to run side by side.

------------------

And if this is not enough , just imagine that you want to play Nintendo games on Play Station.. FYI: you cant!

Its the same problm. SL and all the other grids in Open Sim are all "Nintendo games" and they are compatible with each other and use the same "engine". SL 2 is a .. "Play Station game" .. a completelly different engine , not compatible with SL 1 or the other grids in Open Sim.

 

If you quoted Ebbe correctly Mony nothing he said would preclude the possibility of teleporting from SL to the new world.

Because of your "artistic brain", your words not mine, I will spell out one simple way LL could achieve teleporting from SL to the new grid.

In the SL viewer code new code would be added so when you click to teleport to the new virtual world it automatically logs you into the new world and teleports you to your chosen destination.  If this new world uses a viewer and is not browser based the code for it could either be separate for the SL viewer code or contained in the SL viewer code itself.  Once at your desination the UI would be that of the new world's not of SL viewer UI.

During this log in process to the new grid information such as what your avatar was wearing and appearance setting could be gathered.  We can already gather our avatars appearance settings as an XML file and generate a fixed avatar mesh which could automatically be uploaded to the new grid and all textures applied to it.  It would also be possible to IM back and forth between both SL and the new world.

None of this is beyond the abilities of LL's employees and if I can easily think of a way to do it I am sure they can come up with a much more elegant solutions.

FYI SL and the new virtual world LL is panning on making are not Nintendo or Play Station.  And FYI had during the development process of PLay Station the technicians could have made Nintendo games play on it if they had wanted to. I am sure they didn't because that's not what they wanted the Play Station to do.

All I have suggested is being able to teleport from SL to the new world and that your avatar would appear the same in the new world as it did in SL.  This is not rocket science.  It is just figuring out how to get your shape and textures and worn items or copies of said items from SL to the new world in an automated process.

As I have sat here I have thought of a second way all this could be accomplished.  Think of it in terms of a hologram or green screen effect.  You log into SL and decide to teleport to the new world.  Once you have automatically been logged into the new world while still being logged into SL the SL servers transmit your SL avatar's image to the new world and super imposes it on top of the new world's avatar.  Kind of like wearing a hologram over your avatar.  Everyone around you would see your SL avatar as it appears in SL but none of the assets have actually been transferred over to the new world and since you are still logged into SL all your communications and AO and scripts would still work but won't produce any lag in the new world.

Where would your avatar go in SL once you teleport to the new world?  Perhaps there will be a series of LL sims where your avatar will simply be in empty space.  It actually wouldn't move but the animations would move the avatars limbs and the avatar in the new world would move.  In fact the real avatar in the new world would be invisible and could even be very low poly.  This splitting up of the avatar appearance and the new worlds sim contents on two separate servers would actually reduce the lag further for the new world.

 

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ObviousAltIsObvious wrote:


Mony Lindman wrote:

What if all the teckies would put their brains at work together and find a solution to the problem of teleporting WITHIN the Open Sim! With inventory, money ballance and identity.. It cant be that much of a rocket science..

that exists, it is called the Hypergrid. on the technical side there is support for portable inventory and spacebux. on the business/social/legal side there is much resistance to allowing those features in a meaningful way. grid operators don't necessarily all trust each other not to steal foreign content, or to share in their inworld economies, so often the experience isn't much different from when SL was participating.

Yes, but even that is evolving as there is now support for a Suitcase Inventory folder that will follow you everywhere on your travels. In addition more grids are implementing the "exportable" flag on objects, so only objects with the flag set can be moved to another grid via Hypergrid teleporting. Finally some viewers are enforcing creator and mod/copy/trans settings across grids and even if whole sims have been moved between grids.  So it is getting there...

If you want to experience Hypergrid teleports your best bet is to create an avatar on osgrid dot org , go through a very noobish first logon and suffer multiple flashbacks to SL 2008 :matte-motes-silly: but after that you should be set for your travel through Hyperspace. 

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I agree, and I look forward to seeing the "new world" and what we can do there.

As a consumer, if some of my existing stuff transfers, I'll be all the happier, but if not, it won't put me off. Heck, I've bought the same stuff twice in SL too..

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Akane Nacht wrote:

I agree, and I look forward to seeing the "new world" and what we can do there.

As a consumer, if some of my existing stuff transfers, I'll be all the happier, but if not, it won't put me off. Heck, I've bought the same stuff twice in SL too..

same. 4 times even so far

system + prim wardrobe

system + sculpt wardrobe. dump old

rigged mesh wardrobe. dump old

now fitted mesh wardrobe. dump old

and when I can get flex fittedmesh then I will empty my wardrobe again and do again

and I havent even made it to the betterworld yet

 

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Gaia Clary wrote:

Will we have a new System Avatar with a Shape system ? If that will be, then there is probably a chance to convert an SL Shape to the new Avatar shape system.

Ehm... i was so much blind folded i can not believe. After a week of reading and thinking about it and getting answers from here and elsewhere i am convinced that it is almost trivial to port an existing SL Avatar including its shape and textures to any world where

 

  • The world uses a Skeletal animation system
  • The world supports the unconstrained upload of custom characters and custom animation animations

To clarify SL-Avatar. That is (for me):

 

  • The Avatar Mesh as it is defined by SL
  • The shape as it is defined by the customer
  • All textures/materials used on the Avatar mesh
  • All its animations (standard anims as well as custom anims)
  • All mesh based attachments (rigged)

Well, you know... (i realy must have been blind all the time) SL's importer simply assumes that the imported character (or attachment) uses one specific pose. And actually i do NOT only mean how the joints are rotated relative to each other. I also mean how the joints are scaled.

The point is that the joint scaling of the animatable bones in SL is predefined and the importer assumes (in simple terms) that this predefined scaling is used. And the character shape actually is just a set of values that define different Bone scales on the technical basis. And we already know since a looong time how to convert these shape values into bone scales!

So if LL decided to implement such a migration module, you could possibly get your current Avatar appeal beamed into the new world on a mouse click.

Otherwise if LL decides to "only" support unresticted upload of custom characters (technically: allows to include the complete joint matrices), then it would be easy and straight forward to provide an external tool for transfering the character's skeleton and shape to the new world. In that case the only restiction would be whether we (users) are permitted to transfer the needed attachments, animations and textures (but that is a legal issue, not a technical problem).

Now it is still the question whether this transfer is:

 

  • mandatory to have (to makeusers happy)
  • or just a "nice to have" property,
  • or Pointless because the new world's default character will be soo great looking that the SL character would look like a sloppy "lazy bone" alternative compared to it. Actually i hope so much that the new characters will become just awesome out of the box.

[edit]: And actually it might still be possible to transfer the shape only (convert SL shape into SL2 shape and use the new avatar)

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Cathy Foil wrote:

Just proclaiming something is a different platform hence making teleporting from one platform to another platform is impossible doesn't make it so.  It boarders on idiotic.

 

Then tell Ebbe that hes an idiot becase HE SAID THAT not I

We are talking here since 1 week about the FACT that the new world will NOT be backwards compatible to the old one. Is that "idiotic" ? Sure is ! But thats the way that it is ..

If you spend some time to read at least the posts of Ebbe on this tread , you may be able to understand why it is so and that THIS is the main problem with these 2 SLs.

Even if teleporting as such could be made possible between the 2 worlds , and even if the whole inventory could be taken there, that wouldnt help at all because except textures and meshes NOTHING from inventory would work on that engine ..

I know that SL is not "100% compatible" with the Open Sim grids but it is compatible to at least 90%. While the compatibility between SL 1 and SL 2 is maybe 4-5% .. at most. Meaning that the textures from here will also show up there and probably the meshes will be to some degre compatible but everything else will NOT WORK THERE.

Read at least this post from Ebbe in which he gives some details about which items will work there and which not:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Linden-Lab-is-building-a-NEW-virtual-world/m-p/2758334#M185698

To make it easier for you , this is what he said:

"We don't have all the answers to this one yet, but several areas will have radical improvements and thus not possible to be fully backwards compatible. 

Mesh is ok (but with better lighting and other tech you may want to make tweaks)

Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)

Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Scripts (major improvement, so will change)

Textures ok

Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)

Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD "

And from what he said in other posts it appears that :

- scripting language will NOT be lsl but probably something C+ based

- animation format will NOT be BVH but probably FBX and will work totally different coz "we don't currently do it the way it should be done"

- skins , shapes and other avatar components will be totally different coz all avatars will be mesh avatars

So what will you do with your SL avatar after you magically teleport to SL2  with your whole inventory as you say it should be possible? You would be a cloud (at best) , your lsl scripted AO will not work , starting animations by hand wont work either and whatever you will try to rez or wear from inventory will just NOT WORK. So why telport at all under these circumstances ?

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> Mesh is ok (but with better lighting and other tech you may want to make tweaks)

So this will work.

> Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)

You do not know to what he refers!
I think i know, and i think a conversion is possible provided you can import the original avatar (which is likely to be possible)

> Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Conversion seems to be straight forward to me.

> Scripts (major improvement, so will change)

yes, i also do not see how scripts could be migrated

> Textures ok

So this will work

> Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)

"probably not as is" is not the same as "can't convert" So this statement does imply nothing!

> Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD

This probably means the new system Avatar (should there be any) will work differently. But the import of legacy avatars should be possible, they are just another mesh character and can not participate in the new features. So... it could be done (see also my previous post)...

> Animation format will NOT be BVH but probably FBX

Actually i recall he said, the format was not decided yet... Anyways we can convert BVH to FBX, that is straight forward.

> skins , shapes and other avatar components will be totally different coz all avatars will be mesh avatars

Well, first of all all avatars are mesh, even the default SL Avatar is a mesh. And again, when you can import an SL Avatar as legacy character, then it can use its skins, its shape and its animations.

LL can access the data, they can easily convert the data into a form that will work in the new system, regardless of how it will be constructed (provided they support skeleton based animation and upload of custom meshes, which is highly probable)

So i am pretty sure that an on the fly migration is doable.  But it might not be wanted. Maybe (hopefully) it is just not worth the effort because the new Avatar and its new featrues might be adorable

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

I'm really impressed that Ebbe told everyone about the new product sooner than later. 

Too bad he has only told a few select people over on SLU and came here when the FUD was runnning rampant.. Still nothing on the official SL website. So, no, he hasn't told everyone. Most of SL is ignorant of this.

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Mony Lindman wrote:
 So why telport at all under these circumstances ?

Maybe to keep ones identity, ones unique name one has since registered, keeping ones groups, friends, and not having to upload all textures again, and all notecards. It would at least save all stuff that would be compatible with the new world. 

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Mony Lindman wrote: [...]

So what will you do with your SL avatar after you magically teleport to SL2  with your whole inventory as you say it should be possible? You would be a cloud (at best) , your lsl scripted AO will not work , starting animations by hand wont work either and whatever you will try to rez or wear from inventory will just NOT WORK. So why telport at all under these circumstances ?

I think you're probably right, but I also think that's largely a business decision, not a technical one, even granting that SL2 won't maintain backwards compatibility in all the ways Ebbe has mentioned. Incompatible changes can be made without making it impossible to import old content with reasonable success. The business decision is about how much value that has, compared to the cost of developing importers.

One example is LSL scripts. Now, SL2 will (almost certainly) run scripts in a Mono engine. Yeah, they could adopt something else, but I don't think it's likely; rather, I think it will just be one or more non-LSL languages compiling to Mono. There's no guarantee that the same functions will be exposed in SL2's API (for example, llGetMass() may simply have no counterpart in SL2), but probably 99% of actual scripts use only function calls that will have equivalents. So it's not rocket science to have those run on the new grid, with at most a recompile.

Similar sleight-of-hand could convert SL1 animations to SL2, as already discussed. And every prim or sculpt is already a textured mesh, however inefficient.

I'm not saying this will or should happen, but one doesn't have to ignore anything Ebbe has said about the changes to conclude that a vast majority of SL content could be transparently available in SL2 without constraining that new platform to real backwards compatibility.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Suspiria Finucane wrote:

I'm really impressed that Ebbe told everyone about the new product sooner than later. 

Too bad he has only told a few select people over on SLU and came here when the FUD was runnning rampant.. Still nothing on the official SL website. So, no, he hasn't told everyone. Most of SL is ignorant of this.

He did not tell SLU first. Go and see. He did not. He only visited there in february to say hi, because a member of SLU invited him on twitter to do so. Then about a week ago, someone from SLU posted a message saying he had been at a tpv meeting with Ebbe, and there it was that he told about the new sl project. There and in a dozen interviews you can find on the net. It would have been good thinking from LL/Ebbe to sent an email to all residents with same information, I still think that is what should have been done, but, he did not announce it himself on SLU. So stop saying that and whining he should have come here first. He came here to answer all our questions in this thread, to the best of information he now can provide. And I must say he did handle some trolls and bashers here in a cool way as well. He sure has my attention. 

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Have you seen any of the chaos in the inworld groups because most people Inworld have no idea what is going on? The FUD is running rampant and all it would take is a simple post on the main page and on the log in screen to fix. This has been going on for 9 days. It's not whining, it's smart business practice. They have the means to tell everyone about it, but they choose not to. And you are impressed with him...

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Have you seen any of the chaos in the inworld groups because most people Inworld have no idea what is going on? The FUD is running rampant and all it would take is a simple post on the main page and on the log in screen to fix. This has been going on for 9 days. It's not whining, it's smart business practice. They have the means to tell everyone about it, but they choose not to. And you are impressed with him...

No, I've not seen much chaos, or even discussion of this, at least not in content creation groups like  Builders Brewery, Scripts, Script Academy, nor in the Concierge group (sim owners), nor in any of the  product update groups (shoes, hair and so on) to which I belong. 

Which groups do you have in mind?

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Have you seen any of the chaos in the inworld groups because most people Inworld have no idea what is going on? The FUD is running rampant and all it would take is a simple post on the main page and on the log in screen to fix. This has been going on for 9 days. It's not whining, it's smart business practice. They have the means to tell everyone about it, but they choose not to. And you are impressed with him...

I think I did say this in my post:  

"It would have been good thinking from LL/Ebbe to sent an email to all residents with same information, I still think that is what should have been done"

So we do agree on that, no need to argue, they should have informed us all, we should not have to hear it from a tpv meeting he had and someone who happened to be there, or read it on the net in some interview on whatever site but the sl site. And yes, they still owe it to us to give us residents the information like they always do in emails, and I do NOT understand why they did not so far.

And yes, I saw the confusion in world. As a matter a fact, I heard the news in world myself as well, and it brought me here to see what was said about it on the forums. I do expect LL to make up for their mistake and make an official announcement to send to all residents like they should have in the first place.

Having said that, yes, I think he did some impressive damage control to make up for his mistake by answering all our questions and comments. In my world people always get a chance to make up for their mistakes. If you never make mistakes, then maybe you never have to make up for one, but I sure do, and maybe, just maybe, Ebbe is just as human as I am. 

I expect an official announcement for all sl residents soon now, within two weeks max. 

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I think I've got the relationship between the new world and the existing Second Life figured out - it has a very simple real-world analogy, but one that doesn't immediately come to us because of how our world currently works. If this was happening one or two hundred years in the past or possibly one or two hundred years in the future it would be instantly understood.

The new world will be a colony of Second Life.

Colonies are created by existing cultures in some new territory. Only a few settlers arrive at first. Anyone can come and bring their identity, but they can only bring a few posessions and if you try to recreate your old lifestyle under the new conditions you'll end up looking like a fool at best. The colony will share a culture with the old world but will eventually develop its own - it may be dominated by the movers and shakers of the old world or it may be the new players who understand the new conditions better who will prosper. People can travel freely between the mother country and the colonies but most end up picking one or the other.

Colonies begin as financial burdens on the old country as their set up but they exist because they can provide resources the old land can't provide and the assumption is they will eventually be an economic asset for the old world.

In our time period we don't really understand colonies because there isn't anywhere new we can get to, and also it's a loaded concept today because we understand that the colonies of the past weren't really "new" at all - they already had people living there who had no say in the matter. This new virtual world, though, will actually be unpopulated - it would be closer to some space colony of the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

I don't think so. Cloud Party was a colony of SL. That is why it has failed. If the new world will be as different as it was announced, it won't be a colony as it might draw many more users from different backgrounds and open new perspectives.

You can see more of my thinking if you re-read my comment - the forum software ate most of my reasoning.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Have you seen any of the chaos in the inworld groups because most people Inworld have no idea what is going on? The FUD is running rampant and all it would take is a simple post on the main page and on the log in screen to fix. This has been going on for 9 days. It's not whining, it's smart business practice. They have the means to tell everyone about it, but they choose not to. And you are impressed with him...

No, I've not seen much chaos, or even discussion of this, at least not in content creation groups like  Builders Brewery, Scripts, Script Academy, nor in the Concierge group (sim owners), nor in any of the  product update groups (shoes, hair and so on) to which I belong. 

Which groups do you have in mind?

The Firestorm support group, The Phoenix lounge, Slink, Kittycats addicts, Xcite, and a few others.. Guess you just got lucky.

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You can rewrite my post all you want, but I do think he did some nice damage control here. It did give people some answers, at least it did give me some. And I expect that reading our comments will have given Ebbe some insight in our concerns that might actually help them make the transition better for us. They will soon have to come up with their official announcement for all residents, and they should know now, because of our comments, what concerns to address. Because right now, prolly no one who heard the news will be investing in their business anymore or buying anything. So they better come up with some information that makes us believe doing so will still be worth while for us. Otherwise sl will just slowly die untill the new world is up and then nobody is there to transit anymore. 

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