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Qie Niangao wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:

You have to explain the screw-over bit of the equation. 

So this all started (for me at least) when Ebbe said something like "the TOS will not be a problem" in the context of making existing SL1 content available in SL2. That's important to everybody because it would imply that, subject to technical constraints, folks may continue to purchase content in SL1 today with a reasonable expectation that they may be able to use it in SL2, if supported by the technology. If, however, a whole class of that content -- that from European creators who choose to exercise exemption from licensing to which they agreed in the ToS -- if that content cannot be used in SL2, the buyers of that content were screwed-over by the sellers.

It's bad enough that sellers would do this retroactively, to content already sold before SL2 was ever discussed. It's really despicable now, where the very threat of it could halt sale of SL1 content and collapse the economy before SL2 is even developed.

The logical conclusion would be that buyers should demand to know whether sellers are from a jurisdiction where they could pull that scam with impunity, so as to avoid them in the market.

This has been an interesting conversation, if only because it's revealing some important fissures within the current SL community, particularly between content providers and creators on the one hand, and consumers on the other. Ignoring for the moment the issue of the EU and ToS, this seems to be sort of how the options might break down with regards to the importation of technologically-compliant content from SL 1.0 to the new VW:

LL permits the transfer of content only by the primary creators of that content

This would mean that onty those who had created the content from scratch -- i.e., without the use of purchased content from other creators -- would be able to port their mesh or whatever will feasibly work in the new world over. It would leave consumers out in the cold entirely, and would also make life difficult for those incorporating the content of other creators (e.g., animations, mesh bits and pieces, and maybe even textures).

LL permits the transfer of all full-perm content by anyone

This should effectively mean that "secondary creators" -- i.e., those incorporating the work of others in their own creations -- would be able to port content that is compliant with the code of the new VW. It would probably serve most creators well, but would mean that consumers are building their inventories from scratch, and arguably is screwing over those who create full-perm content for other creators (although the argument might be made that selling items as full-perm implicitly includes their importation into a new Linden Lab- controlled grid).

LL permits the transfer of any content, regardless of perms, by anyone, so long as it can be handled by the code base of the new VW.

This probably leaves most consumers happy, but means forgoing the bonanza of buying by new residents that would result from nice, empty inventories. 

All of these solutions, it seems to me, are messy as hell, unless LL utters the magic word that extends the current ToS to the new grid by making it, in legal terms, an extension of the old one. And all of these solutions are going to leave someone unhappy.

With regards to this debate about using EU laws to bypass the ToS, I'm not qualified to comment on the legality of the issues. 

But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that could be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that 
could 
be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

Excuse me! Unethical! Are creators in SL somehow slaves to the public? We have no say in the matter? Or we are Unethical? Maybe, just maybe, we are the only 1's actually thinking here. We don't even know what will be compatible, for sure. Just because LL creates a new world, creators are now obligated to sell there? Again, or we are Unethical? We know almost nothing about this new world, yet creators are being expected to take a stand 1 way or the other. It's nonsense. Despite the fact that SL is going nowhere, irrational people are going to try and make creators feel guilty if they don't waste their time in a new world. The creators no longer have any choices now? We are all now slaves to the public, because we made the mistake of trying to create good products in the original SL?

I think people thinking this way might want to check their own ethics before they go demonizing others.

 

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I very much hope that SL2 will take the opportunity to allow people without last names at last to acquire them, if that's what they want to do.

That, to my mind, might be an element in encouraging people to use SL2.

There's several -- lots, in fact -- of long-standing annoyances about SL1 that SL2 might provide the opportunity to fix -- for example, at times, I'd very much like to be able to log in invisibly (or, at least, invisible to anyone or anything not on the same region as me).  

I'd also like to see groups re-organised, so we can distinguish between land groups (controlling who can enter a particular area, rez objects there, and so on) and chat groups.  A redesign will also, of course, provide the opportunity really to tackle group chat lag.

Many creators would like to see some changes to the permissions system, particularly to distinguish between the next owner and subsequent owners.   That is, I'd love to be able to buy and sell builders' kits containing components that are full perms to the builder, but which cannot subsequently be transferred without being set to no copy or no transfer.

Similarly, many of us would love to be able to buy items that are transferrable between alts.

These are all ideas that have come up over the years but which have proved too difficult, if not impossible, to implement with SL as it is, or at least not without shutting the whole grid down for days at a time.   This seems an ideal opportunity, though, to offer an alternative.

 

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All no mod note cards should not be able to be read if pulled from an object only no mod trans does that at the moment and its a royal pain if you use a note card to put sound uuids in for a script to read on a copy object

Another perms flag maybe like no read on next owner

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that 
could 
be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

Excuse me! Unethical!
Are creators in SL somehow slaves to the public?
We have no say in the matter? Or we are Unethical? Maybe, just maybe, we are the only 1's actually thinking here. We don't even know what will be compatible, for sure. Just because LL creates a new world, creators are now obligated to sell there? Again, or we are Unethical? We know almost nothing about this new world, yet creators are being expected to take a stand 1 way or the other. It's nonsense. Despite the fact that SL is going nowhere, irrational people are going to try and make creators feel guilty if they don't waste their time in a new world. The creators no longer have any choices now? We are all now slaves to the public, because we made the mistake of trying to create good products in the original SL?

I think people thinking this way might want to check their own ethics before they go demonizing others.

 

Um . . . Medhue, it was actually you who said this:

"When the content creators are king, that really means the consumers are king. Content creators have to cater to the consumers. The reality is that creators are slaves to the consumer's will."

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Linden-Lab-is-building-a-NEW-virtual-world/m-p/2757180#M185407

I thought it was nonsense when you said it. You apparently now agree. :-)

 

Your response rather misses the point in any case. No one wants to "force" creators to export their content to the new grid.

BUT . . . if a content creator is selling things that could be exported, but won't permit that to happen, then it is only fair and just disclosure to let consumers know that they are buying content that will only be usable on the old Second Life. If they don't, then they are tacitly implying that they would allow its exportation -- essentially, lying by omission.

In other words, if you don't intend to allow your creations to be ported over, fine. But let the buyer be aware that she or he is buying something that will be usable only in the old Second Life.

It's no different than being upfront about the perms with which an item is sold.

 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that 
could 
be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

Excuse me! Unethical! Are creators in SL somehow slaves to the public? We have no say in the matter? Or we are Unethical? Maybe, just maybe, we are the only 1's actually thinking here. We don't even know what will be compatible, for sure. Just because LL creates a new world, creators are now obligated to sell there? Again, or we are Unethical? We know almost nothing about this new world, yet creators are being expected to take a stand 1 way or the other. It's nonsense. Despite the fact that SL is going nowhere, irrational people are going to try and make creators feel guilty if they don't waste their time in a new world. The creators no longer have any choices now? We are all now slaves to the public, because we made the mistake of trying to create good products in the original SL?

I think people thinking this way might want to check their own ethics before they go demonizing others.

 

The point I was trying to make was a bit more subtle than that. It was all about a particular subclass of creators who, by virtue of geographic accident, might be able to renege on their original TOS commitments and deny customers use of what they bought, whereas all other creators would still be bound by the licenses they granted by agreeing to the ToS.

Somewhere in one of these many threads, I mentioned that I actually see how some creators might reasonably want to replace content in SL2, taking advantage of the new platform's technical advantages (and preserving their reputations, competitive standing, etc). So I'm not sure that all creators content should be forcibly ported to the new platform. I am quite sure, however, that creators from certain particular nations should not get a special exemption from terms to which they agreed and under which their content was licensed to customers.

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that 
could 
be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

Excuse me! Unethical! Are creators in SL somehow slaves to the public? We have no say in the matter? Or we are Unethical? Maybe, just maybe, we are the only 1's actually thinking here. We don't even know what will be compatible, for sure. Just because LL creates a new world, creators are now obligated to sell there? Again, or we are Unethical? We know almost nothing about this new world, yet creators are being expected to take a stand 1 way or the other. It's nonsense. Despite the fact that SL is going nowhere, irrational people are going to try and make creators feel guilty if they don't waste their time in a new world. The creators no longer have any choices now? We are all now slaves to the public, because we made the mistake of trying to create good products in the original SL?

I think people thinking this way might want to check their own ethics before they go demonizing others.

 

The point I was trying to make was a bit more subtle than that. It was all about a particular subclass of creators who, by virtue of geographic accident, might be able to renege on their original TOS commitments and deny customers use of what they bought, whereas all other creators would still be bound by the licenses they granted by agreeing to the ToS.

Somewhere in one of these many threads, I mentioned that I actually see how some creators might reasonably want to replace content in SL2, taking advantage of the new platform's technical advantages (and preserving their reputations, competitive standing, etc). So I'm not sure that all creators content should be forcibly ported to the new platform. I am quite sure, however, that creators from certain particular nations should not get a special exemption from terms to which they agreed and under which their content was licensed to customers.

Yep, just so. I should have been clearer that I don't mean to suggest that creators should be forced to permit their creations to be ported over. I actually don't think they should.

But they do need to be upfront about their intentions in this regard -- at least, once we are clearer on what actually will be transferable from one VW to the other.

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We don't know what's planned for scripting, of course, other than that it won't be LSL.  However,  I've been reviewing some of the likely alternatives and I'm quietly hopeful that we won't have to resort to clunky methods like loading data from notecards in the new SL.    

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


Yep, just so. I should have been clearer that I don't mean to suggest that creators should be forced to permit their creations to be ported over. I actually don't think they should.

But they 
do
need to be upfront about their intentions in this regard -- at least, once we are clearer on what actually will be transferable from one VW to the other.

Why should anyone be any clearer on that than the odd creator who might pull their creations from market at any given moment? 

If my creations will work in the new whatever, and it is an upgrade to the existing service, then they will both legally and technically work in the new whatever. 

If my creations, only by my intervention will continue to work in the new whatever, then it is at my discretion to decide if that will be so. 

If the new whatever, is a completely new product, then my creations cannot legally be transferred to or be made to work in the new whatever without my consent. Which I at this point in time have not given. 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I
f my creations, only by my intervention will continue to work in the new whatever, then it is at my discretion to decide if that will be so. 


Yes, agreed. But it is only fair to let you consumers know what those intentions are -- if you yourself know -- so that they can make an educated and informed decision about buying them.


Gavin Hird wrote:

I
f the new whatever, is a completely new product, then my creations cannot legally be transferred to or be made to work in the new whatever without my consent. Which I at this point in time have not given. 


 

Also fine.  But, again, if you haven't decided yet, make sure that your buyers know that you may decide not to permit the transfer of their items. 

This isn't about forcing creators to permit the transfer of their goods: that should be their decision. It's about honestly informing their consumers about what that decision is.

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LOL.

 

Yes painful.


 It is not you. The LL viewer is missing many "everyday" features of FS and other TPVs. And everyone's "everyday features" are different so that is a lot of stuff.  I  ventured into the Linden viewer just now to test something and was reminded :D.

 

This, in theory is supposed to help with NEW folks -- less complex; less to learn. Remember the really scaled down viewer from a few years ago - I think it was BASIC mode which was the default? And the first thing we had to teach the new folks was to turn ON advanced mode so that they could do ANYTHING they wanted to do beside teleport and chat LOL.  Well I think they cold buy things.

Hence FS has 70% of the viewer pie and then there are all the other TPVs that I hear folks mention now and then. I actually only know one person on the Linden Viewer -- that has stated they are anyway.

So yes, the viewer really  needs to be address for the new world. I will most likely venture over and the tech could seduce me (it did in Cloud Party) but if I have to cringe each time I log in because I am preparing myself to face the viewer from hell, it isn't likely I will be there often.

 

 

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I sell two ranges of products: Skins and Mesh items. 

We know with 99% certainty that the skins will not transfer. I don't have to inform about that, Linden Lab does!

From the ring of it, my meshes will most likely have to be reuploaded and reworked to work. I don't have to inform about that. Linden Lab does!

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that 
could 
be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

If someone is concerned, they can ask before they buy.

If people don't ask that is their problem.

What I would have trouble with would be a Merchant selling content 'as if' it was going to be useable in the New World.

Similarly, it is not my duty as a Seller to teach or inform anyone about retail law.

We had the required notices about our store policies clearly posted in our stores as well as printed on every purchase order available for the customer to read before they signed. 

It's mind boggling some of the misconceptions people have.

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I sell two ranges of products: Skins and Mesh items. 

We know with 99% certainty that the skins will not transfer. I don't have to inform about that,
Linden Lab does!

From the ring of it, my meshes will most likely have to be reuploaded and reworked to work. I don't have to inform about that.
Linden Lab does!

Fair enough, and agreed. I did state the proviso that my comments applied only to content that could be transferred. The ethical onus is upon Linden Lab to let its customers know what will be transferable by them, and what won't. Again, this is to ensure that consumers can make informed choices.

If, on the other hand, it should prove possible for consumers to port your mesh objects over without your reworking them, the onus must be on YOU to inform consumers whether or not you intend to permit that to happen.

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Whatever you call it, the point is that not everyone now using sl will have a computer compatible to go there. 

While that MIGHT be true, it doesn't need to be true.  Cloud party worked very well "streaming" though a web browser. There were different rules of course and there was no MAINLAND of contiguous builds, but it worked pretty much for everyone if they had a decent broadband connection.That was WEBGL.

 

Anyway the world on the whole (probably not content creators) is going to mobile devices and the powerhouse workstation is a dinosaur (one that I will be backing for many years -- but still a minority). So making the platform work for the majority of the people must certainly be a top priority of the new system. I believe (can't remember now) that Ebbie eluded to mobile device use in a talk.

 

Cloud Party had GREAT tech (the tech guys moved over to Yahoo when the platform was sold). It was completely different but for those willing to learn, really impressive. The avatars were all mesh and had sliders with static heads. The sims were FOUR TIMES as big as our 256 sims. What it didn't have was content creators (well a handful) and almost no population. In retrospect, the devs (really wonderful folks and super smart) may have been after a buyout all along :D. And I wish them all the very best!

 

SOOOOO -- BETTER doesn't NECESSARILY call for more computing power.

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I sell two ranges of products: Skins and Mesh items. 

We know with 99% certainty that the skins will not transfer. I don't have to inform about that,
Linden Lab does!

From the ring of it, my meshes will most likely have to be reuploaded and reworked to work. I don't have to inform about that.
Linden Lab does!

OK but what can I do when I sell animated items and LL does NOT inform if they will port or not ..

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

If, on the other hand, it should prove possible for consumers to port your mesh objects over 
without
 your reworking them, the onus must be on YOU to inform consumers whether or not you intend to permit that to happen.

Yes, I agree on that, but we also must have good assesments on what the effort is before we can tell with certainty.

For all we know creating a new skin for a completely new uv set can take months and months.  We also need to assess if the effort will pay off at the end, or if we will get better return doing something completely differerent. At this point in time every one of us are equally uninformed. 

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Zena Zemlja wrote:

I have to agree with you on this. Not everyone has the last new high tech computer. Making a new high tech world will not make them buy one. They simply will not be able to afford it. 

This is not about developing high tech, but moving into the mobile space where all the action and big revenue are these days. 

A half-way modern GPU draws upward of 200 Watt. Good luck running that on your tablet.

So, either 'Tablet-SL' is graphically so nerfed that I have no interest visiting it at all, or they manage to get a 200W performance out of a 15W card, in wich case I'll rush out on my winged pig to come have a look.

Gabe Newell (CEO of STEAM) once said they were going into the mobile market too. Naturally none of that really materialized, as Gabe at least is seated firmly enough in reality to understand a tablet is, graphically, not a PC -- not by a long shot. People may *think* so, because of certain built-in H264 acceleration that allows them to watch full-HD on it; but oh boy if you try and do anything outside that narrow margin!

Maybe it would behoove Ebbe to step off the mobile hype-wagon too, and just focus on SL?!

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Gavin Hird wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:

If, on the other hand, it should prove possible for consumers to port your mesh objects over 
without
 your reworking them, the onus must be on YOU to inform consumers whether or not you intend to permit that to happen.

Yes, I agree on that, but we also must have good assesments on what the effort is before we can tell with certainty.

For all we know creating a new skin for a completely new uv set can take months and months.  We also need to assess if the effort will pay off at the end, or if we will get better return doing something completely differerent. At this point in time every one of us are equally uninformed. 

Agreed. LL clearly needs to let people know as soon as possible what will be possible, and what won't be.

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Mony Lindman wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:

I sell two ranges of products: Skins and Mesh items. 

We know with 99% certainty that the skins will not transfer. I don't have to inform about that,
Linden Lab does!

From the ring of it, my meshes will most likely have to be reuploaded and reworked to work. I don't have to inform about that.
Linden Lab does!

OK but what can I do when I sell animated items and LL does NOT inform if they will port or not ..

The only thing you can do now is wait it out till they have fleshed out the details, and THEN let Linden Lab break the news to the public. Only after that can you make any informed decisions. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


But I agree completely with Qie that anyone who is selling content that 
could 
be ported over to the new VW and isn't informing their customers that they don't plan to permit that happening is, at the very least, being deeply unethical. Consumers (and this includes other creators buying components for their own creations) deserve full transparency on this issue; anything else would represent underhanded behaviour on the part of the seller, to put it mildly.

If someone is concerned, they can ask before they buy.

If people don't ask that is their problem.

What I would have trouble with would be a Merchant selling content 'as if' it was going to be useable in the New World.

Similarly, it is not my duty as a Seller to teach or inform anyone about retail law.

We had the required notices about our store policies clearly posted in our stores as well as printed on every purchase order available for the customer to read before they signed. 

It's mind boggling some of the misconceptions people have.

 

Well, we are talking about ethics here rather than "legal compulsion." Clearly, LL is not going to insist that sellers inform their customers about their intentions in this regard.

Essentially, what this is all about is really a new kind of permissions. We have "copy," "mod," and "transfer," and to that we can now add something like "portable."

Generally speaking, merchants tell their customers what the perms on their items are so that they can make informed decisions. I myself will generally avoid "no copy" items, because they are too vulnerable to loss, etc. Some people will want to carry such items as can be transferred over in to the new VW, and they should be informed if the creator has no intention of allowing that to happen (assuming, again, that it can be transferred over) in just the same way, and for the same reasons, that they inform consumers of the object's other perms.

 

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This is just a general comment on this theme, not really a reply to anyone in particular.

 

It is important to remember that the new world -- even when open is not going to just poof into existence. Like all new worlds it will take time to build, move, create products and populate. It could easily be several years before any GREAT influx of folks heads over.

In every new world I have been in (and that is a lot) the content creators went first. There were a few folks that just wanted to witness the beginnings of the grid but mostly it was the more techie folk that wanted to learn the new system and make new objects (animations etc) that would work IN it.


By the time any large exodus happens (if it does) many of the things made now will be completely outdated and except for sentimental value likely not used too often. I, personally am not going to worry about what might port over -- especially if "porting" has a charge (it has in some worlds, others not).

There are bound to be many possibilities and pretty much starting over making "the best on the new grid" stuff seems to be a fairly good plan for creators that like to create :D.

 

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Think a little... the only reason why we still hear that wondefull sound of money comming in is that most users dont know yet about this sh.. Should we and/or LL start informing everybody (maybe on the login window..) that most of what they buy from now on (not to mention what they already bought) will not be transfered in the new world, then we wont hear that wonderfull sound of mony comming in too often anymore, we will lose money .. and if we lose money , LL loses money .. and if LL loses money guess who gets fired  :)

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

LL permits the transfer of any content, regardless of perms, by anyone, so long as it can be handled by the code base of the new VW.
This probably leaves most consumers happy, but means forgoing the bonanza of buying by new residents that would result from nice, empty inventories. 


As someone with an inventory, I highly prefer the above option. It wouldn't be a true full-perm thingy, btw; more like a meta-perm, to get stuff exported from SL1, and imported into SL2 (encrypted, for instance, so it can't enter Open Sim or something).

As for 'foregoing the bonanza of buying by new residents,' well, much like you need money to make money, you need sales to make sales. Which is to say, you basically already need to have a half-way flourishing world in order for ppl to feel confident enough to buy stuff in. Being able to import your old inventory could be just the ticket to that.

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